fgarvb1
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http://web.archive.org/web/20010604225904/www.literotica.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=34188
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lavender
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International Herald Tribune
June 1, 2001
http://web.archive.org/web/20010604225904/http://www.commondreams.org/views01/0601-03.htm
"HONG KONG - Anti-Americanism is on the rise again. Evidence is anecdotal, and a very clear cause like the Vietnam War is lacking. But from surprising and diverse quarters one is hearing hostile sentiments aimed at America in general rather than simply at specific policies.
George W. Bush is not the cause, after only four months in office. But he has perhaps been a catalyst, with actions ranging from environmental policies to missile defense stimulating latent anti-American viruses. Like any anti-ism, this is an emotional reaction rather than anything susceptible to reasoned discussion. But it needs to be recognized as a troubling trend.
In Asia, some current complaints could be dismissed as the frustrations of the China lobby at Washington's new, hard-nosed attitude to Beijing. For every China sympathizer crying "foul" there are probably a Japanese, an Indian and a Malay quietly cheering Mr. Bush's arms sales to Taiwan and courtesy to the Dalai Lama.
But there is a sense that being the only superpower has gone to America's head, as if it were now the only power. In particular, it can set the rules of globalization, defining its "good" and "bad" aspects.
There is nothing new about congressional disdain for the United Nations, but it has been thrown into sharper focus by the push for economic liberalization and globalized brands. So the world must have Coca-Cola and McDonald's, but not globalized decision-making.
The issue of an international human rights court may not be a major global concern. But when America lectures other countries on the need for legal frameworks and institutions, its own refusal to accept international jurisdiction is seen for what it is. Anti-Americanism feeds on such once un-American phenomena as the concentration of international media in few (and sometimes highly ideological) hands. Much damage is being done to the pluralism of which the United States is so justly proud by its self-promoting multimedia news combines. If America - not its citizens - is seen to press its narrow corporate interests rather than its philosophy of freedom and diversity, the outcome will be negative for America and the world.
That world, and Asia in particular, is used to lectures on the merits of competition. But how many global users of personal computers and the Internet can escape Microsoft?
In various theaters the image of the United States as the gentle giant, the peacemaking intermediary, may be eroding. One never used to hear much comment in East Asia about Israel/Palestine and the U.S. role, but that may be changing. If Washington fails, due to domestic pressures, to put its full weight behind its own Mitchell report, its honest broker role and global acceptance of its commitment to racial equality will suffer.
Its reputation is already being eroded as outsiders perceive, rightly or not, its government to be too influenced by fundamentalist Christians.
Much of the world has long wanted the United States to take leads because it believed that America was well-motivated and in the forefront of social and technological progress. It likes to see America lead by example. But if America is seen, as with emission standards, to put narrow domestic interests before global needs, respect can easily turn to disappointment and contempt.
The same applies to trade liberalization. The U.S. record is superb, but doubts are being raised. Does it really want China in the World Trade Organization? Does it put trade with the Americas before WTO progress? The doubters are probably wrong, but that there are doubts is worrying. America's assumptions about its own economy are also drawing ire. East Asia mostly made a pragmatic response to its financial crisis, opening up trade to competition and industries to foreign takeover as required by the IMF. The easy money and tax cutting policies now being pursued in the United States are the very opposite of the austerity forced on Asia when it ran into its debt and over-investment problems. America's response to its own problems, its failure to subject itself to monetary discipline, is possible because of the dollar's dominant reserve currency role. One is now hearing in Asia the sentiment that Charles de Gaulle expressed in the 1960s. Why should a country with a huge deficit still be able to buy other countries' industries by using its reserve currency status?
It is of course not America's fault that Japan and Europe have failed to establish their currencies' credibility, or that Asian monetary cooperation has proved minimal. But those concerned to halt the spread of the anti-American virus cannot ignore this issue.
Europe's periodic bouts of anti-Americanism have never become overwhelming. Sensible friends and allies want the United States to use its technological superiority to maintain its global reach as others, such as China, gain in relative strength and ambition.
But it does America no favors to deny that resentment of its attitudes and assumptions has been increasing. The nation which invented public relations should look to its own."
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06-01-2001 07:19 PM
Closet Desire
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Whew...
I'm an American living abroad and have to say it is no mere illusion that people are scrutinizing the US very closely for what is seen a very hypocritical posture in areas of financial responsibility, human rights, recognition of international authorities (which the US helped establish), etc.
When I first moved here several years ago I tried to justify many of the actions of my homeland and, in many ways, I still can. But, there have been some recent actions which defy logic and suggest that while the rest of the world is still moving ahead, progressing, America is suddenly putting on the brakes and saying "that's far enough."
I posted an excerpt on another thread from CNN about the recent Amnesty International report which noted growing problems in the US in terms of its prison population, police brutality, the use of stun weapons, and outright torture. Of course, the headline and what the rest of the world is noticing is that the US is one of five countries that perform 90% of all the world's executions (China, Iraq, Iran, US, and Saudi Arabia). On the world stage these seems to contradict what the US preaches about human rights.
I dunno, but recently I find myself being embarrassed by what comes out of leaders' mouths and worry about what it means in the future.
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06-01-2001 07:48 PM
WriterDom
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We've just been through a "do nothing" administration who lead by opinion polls for the past 8 years. Now we should listen to a reporter's international poll?
And if you think the world is a safer place from Clinton's treasonous actions with China, then you better think again. I think one reason China is pissed off is they didn't get any return on their investment in Al Gore.
Am I concerned about what the world thinks? No matter what you do, half the world will disapprove. As long as we are walking through the valley of death with the biggest fucking stick, I don't really care if our taxes are among the lowest of all industrial nations, or if we wipe our ass with paper instead of our hand.
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06-01-2001 08:36 PM
Myst
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Dom is right... should we really care that what we see as right isn't necessarily in the norm in other countries? Isn't it well known that Americans are loathed throughout the world?
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06-01-2001 08:42 PM
Brit
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There is a difference between being hated and a lack of respect. Some coutries, perhaps traditional enemies, do have a history of American bashing because they don't agree with what they stand for. It is different when a country that shares many aims and values of the US starts to loose faith in it because of the hipocrasy. (pardon my spelling)
The issue here is not that you are pissing off some extreme regimes who's opinions don't matter. You are risking losing the freinds you once had. I am not saying you are there yet but there is a level of arrogance which certain factions in the US are fast approaching which will alienate the rest of the world. And I mean all of it. You have had a few years as the only superpower but the world is changing. We are more a global society than ever. You cannot stay in your old role of being alone and right by divine providence. The international community is real and you have to accept that you will be a part of it not simply "it".
Sorry if that sounds a bit like a lecture but I actually like America and want to see a future where America is one of the leading roles in the international community but you have to be totally on board or you won't acheive that. Look at the UK in Europe. The constant arguments and fear of loss of soverignty have stopped us taking the best out of it and perpetuated the fear that we are getting a raw deal.
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06-01-2001 09:05 PM
dza
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whatever
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hmmmm, very interesting
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06-01-2001 09:13 PM
Closet Desire
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A dose of reality...
That's right, America doesn't need anybody. The biggest debtor nation in the world doesn't need to trade to with others. Just close those borders and tell 'em all to go to hell.
The US manufactures very little of what it uses, imports most of its steel, nearly all of its oil, imports computer components and systems, wears clothes made in the far east, and frankly has very little capacity of its own in some key areas. Critical resources like nickel, cobalt, copper, etc. Is it coming from your backyard? Nope, it's imported too.
You're smack dab in the middle of a global economy whether you like it or not and while the US may wield a lot of influence in the markets it certainly doesn't dominate them entirely.
Walking with the biggest stick eh? I retired from the US Navy and I can you that it's impotent as hell without friends who will provide a friendly port, places to refuel, and food to feed the troops. Hong Kong just said "no" to port visits by an American ship. Where you gonna go when everyone says "no".
As the earlier writer said, it isn't that you should worry what the enemies of the US are saying. You should be worried when your friend tells you you're screwing up.
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06-01-2001 09:51 PM
unusuallyconfused
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You know America has been one of the most charitable nations in the world and we give tons of money, supplies, etc. I don't think any other country can boast that. It seems to me that having a global decision makers like the UN make US policy is fucking scary. We didn't elect those of the UN. Do you think they will put the best interest of Americans in place. Where is the government of the people by the people if the UN makes international policy and possibly our national policy. Every person who knows history should understand that Government takes what is given then takes more. Remember Absolute Power breeds Absolute Corruption. Its makes me wonder sometimes how the book of revelation prophesies that indicated that there will be one world leader. With the UN, that could happen. Like I said, It is fucking scary.
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06-02-2001 01:15 AM
lavender
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Although the Bush crew fails to see this, the actual philosophy that drives current international relations is global interdependence. This means that all nations are closely connected. Economic policies in Mozambique have effects upon France's economy. The United States' human rights policies effect Indonesia. There is an interconnectivity that globalization has created.
We must realize this. Isolationism is no longer an effective solution (as if it ever truly was). We must engage the nations of the world in order to promote our agenda.
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06-02-2001 01:26 AM
unusuallyconfused
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It seems to me to that establishing world trade at the expense of our democracy is too high of a risk. I am not sure I would be willing to pay the price. I would rather have less than that.
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06-02-2001 01:31 AM
fgarvb1
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IT'S US DAMN EVIL AMERICANS AGAIN.!
So what else is new again.? Don't worry this country goes through spells like this several times a century.
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06-02-2001 06:24 AM
CRaZy
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by unusuallyconfused
You know America has been one of the most charitable nations in the world and we give tons of money, supplies, etc. I don't think any other country can boast that. It seems to me that having a global decision makers like the UN make US policy is fucking scary. We didn't elect those of the UN. Do you think they will put the best interest of Americans in place. Where is the government of the people by the people if the UN makes international policy and possibly our national policy. Every person who knows history should understand that Government takes what is given then takes more. Remember Absolute Power breeds Absolute Corruption. Its makes me wonder sometimes how the book of revelation prophesies that indicated that there will be one world leader. With the UN, that could happen. Like I said, It is fucking scary.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Before I start, let me make it clear that this is about the American government and its policies, not the people. Any outsider watching your political process can clearly see that the decisions being made by the government are generally not those of the populace.
Any charitable funds provided by any government have a political agenda. The hard, cold, cynical facts. Read about Timor sometime. This was a country in which systematic genocide took place for 20 years. It was only political expediency (Indonesia had pissed Australia off) which finally made Australia do something about it. The same applies to the goverment of the United States. There is always a great hooha about the considerable funds provided to rebuild Cambodia. The United States goverment fails to mention that it wouldn't have needed to be rebuilt if they hadn't bombed the fuck out of it during the Vietnam War, thus allowing Pol Pot to gain power.
The United States and Britain are the biggest weapons manufacturers in the world. America makes 23 types of landmines. They sell them indiscriminately, often to opposing factions, depending on who is offering the most at the time. Land mines are the weapon of choice in guerilla skirmishes. When it's all over, the United States goverment says, "Oh how awful. Look at all those poor people with their limbs blown off. Let's send a few doctors and some antiseptic. We're such a goddamned charitable nation after all. God bless America."
For years, the United States has sold weapons to both China and Taiwan. They do not recognise Taiwan as a country. Yet, if any other government was selling arms to a non country, they would cry foul.
The real people who do proper charity work in dark corners of the globe where it isn't very politically beneficial are groups like Red Cross and Medicins Sans Borders. The biggest contributer per capita to international charity funds is New Zealand bless them. And, last I heard, they weren't fighting with anyone (except the Aussie rugby team).
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06-02-2001 07:22 AM
p_p_man
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Not interdependent eh?
dza and fgarvb1
I won't repeat the list that Closet Desire has made but for those of you who have made lightweight remarks (dza and fgarvb1) about such an important subject as this thread I would suggest that you take more notice of comments made by those of us who seem to have a wider perspective on world affairs than yourselves.
It's no good bleating that "half the world doesn't like Americans" or "it's America's fault again...", it sounds too much like the child who is unable to compete and uses the "people don't like me" shit to explain their failures. For all I know you might well be like that but, let's face it, you should have lost that attitude years ago.
This thread is about the loss of your allies and long term friends, it's about a changing world where once a country could retreat into isolationism and be sorely missed by other nations to a world where their retreat into isolationism would not have such a great impact on the world stage. Take note of what Closet Desire and lavender have written about America's dependence on imports. It's true. They haven't made it up, they didn't pluck those facts from middair to write interesting posts.
So little asides as you've both written might make you look cool and clever in the short term but all it does to the rest of us is make us wonder how people can be so blind as not to see the obvious.
I believe that America is approaching one of the more serious, and possibly the most serious, crises, in her relatively short lifespan. It will be up to people like yourselves to protect yourselves as best you can.
The rest of us will help, of course we will, but it would give us great pleasure to see you gain wider viewpoints and put things right yourselves.
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06-02-2001 10:22 AM
Closet Desire
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Absolute Power...
Every country is guilty of being ethnocentric and thinking that it is the most charitable, the most generous, the most just, but when you've spent time in other parts of the world you learn that this just isn't the case.
People are people the world over. I've found the people everywhere I've gone (including Paris...hee hee) to be charitable and hospitable. The US isn't the only one that provides aid to countries hit by starvation, earthquake, storm, etc. Having seen some of the figures I would suggest that in many cases the aid provided by some European nations is proportionally greater than that of the US.
Yes the US is often quick to step in with aid (and make a public spectacle of it), but not too surprisingly so is the rest of the civilised world. The US is also very quick to put conditions on the aid it provides. Oh, you endorse abortion in your country? Well, that doesn't sit well with us so we won't provide you with any more aid to fight AIDS, STDS, or control pregnancy.
Somebody made reference to the overused cliche about absolute power corrupting absolutely. Hmmmm. The US still holds over 11,000 strategic and tactical nuclear warheads in its arsenal and is proceeding with wanting to deploy Tridents in England and Europe (ostensibly to protect "them" from a threat that no longer exists). The US now has more than ten fully equipped carrier battle groups, the largest submarine fleet, air superiority that outguns anyone else's, and one of the largest standing armies in the world. I ask you...who is in danger of succumbing to "absolute power"?
[Edited by Closet Desire on 06-02-2001 at 04:17 AM]
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06-02-2001 12:15 PM
Andra_Jenny
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It is easy to see the jealousy of the rest of the world. Our allies feel very "free" to turn their backs on us after the considerable expenditure on our part to return them to freedom. They are all a bunch of Jeffers.
By banding together, and trying to kick and cajole us into submission they hope to bring us down to their level so that they may feel, look, and be more important in the world.
Egomania and ignorance must surely rule the rest of the world, which is why we must be diligent and continue to be the strongest ones in the world, because we are obviously the only "sane" members of the world community.
Britan. Don't call us next time unless you're willing to be there in the bad times.
France, the next time the Germans come, they keep it. OKAY?
Anybody else, China included, who gives a rats ass what they think? They proved historically that they can't organize a cluster-fuck, let alone clean up the world.
It's no wonder some people did not respond seriously to this thread. It does not even deserve reasonable response.
But that's just my view of most everything outside of Kansas (and yes, I have traveled about quite a bit in your world and have seen for myself how the people of most countries worship the ground we walk on, its YOUR FUCKING governments that are the problem. The French really do want Micky D's and the English will just fucking love Walmart. I still say we pave Europe and turn it into an amusement park. Hell, what you think now is pretty damn funny when you think about it).
That's my rant!
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06-02-2001 01:37 PM
unusuallyconfused
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Ok, this is a very serious subject. A couple of points, If you are going to use the fact that we destroyed a country and there was no "charity" in providing funds to rebuild it I believe you would be completely off base. Do you think any other country would give a shit? Of course we do it for our own political gain, however, the compassion from our people keeps our politicians in line. AT least we can vote someone out if they go against our will. We are currently generating considerable income to Russia, we didn't bomb them. We could go on and on. It may be for political advantage, but the fact is we do help. Is that not the bottom line. Shall we go back in history to find how many countries have destroyed others and didn't give a shit.
Yes I said "absolute power corrupts absolutely" but at least with the US there is still a process of eliminating a person by impeachment if they are out of control. There are still many countries that do not have that ability. I certainly would rather have an accountable George Bush be in charge of the most powerful nation on the earth than a Saddam Hussein. I believe on this topic we are going to have to agree to disagree. I still believe giving our sovereignty to the UN is Fucking SCARY.
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06-02-2001 02:35 PM
CRaZy
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by unusuallyconfused
We are currently generating considerable income to Russia, we didn't bomb them. We could go on and on. It may be for political advantage, but the fact is we do help.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Err...no, the American propoganda machine and the CIA convinced the Russians that democracy with the Mafia controlling industry and big business and the inevitable inflation-unemployment cycle that comes with fiscal policy would be SO much bloody better than a country which certainly gave its people less freedom of speech but which had 100% employment and at least SOME food on the table. Sigh.
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06-02-2001 02:59 PM
daMafia
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das right.... we controll everyting in da woild.... we collect da taxes... we run All da police departments... we say hoo gets elected... we even run da un...
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06-02-2001 03:47 PM
daMafia
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and of course.... der was NO coruption in da Soviet Union before da breakup.... it ONLY happened after...
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06-02-2001 03:50 PM
Closet Desire
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Some finer points...
It was the Russians who actually allied with the US and helped turn the tide of the German advances. It was also the Russians who suffered the heaviest losses...9 million men as I recall plus women and children. Making an income for the Russians? Don't kid yourself. NASA leapt ahead in space technology when the iron curtain rusted away by gaining access to power cell technology, biological data, and other things. The Russians are very smart, resourceful people whose technical innovation rivals that of the US. In a sense they are very simliar to Americans in "can do" attitude. The Russian commercial space program is doing well not because of handouts from the US but because they can launch communication satellites sooner and cheaper than the US. Hell, I'm invested in Sirius radio and all three of their satellites were launched successfully and on time by Proton rockets in Russia. The US doesn't exactly have the market cornered in space technology.
For all its ingenuity the US didn't invent one of the greatest weapons of WWII, it was right down the street from where I live right now at the Marconi labs that radar came into existence. The device was basically smuggled to the US for production. Yes, the US was a very important player in the war and no doubt swung the outcome, but the US had as many vested interests in the outcome as the rest of allies. If Germany had succeeded in taking all of Europe it would not have wasted much time turning full-time to tackling the US with its own nearly developed nuclear weapons AND ballistic delivery capabilities (surely you haven't forgotten that nearly all of the US space programme was based on captured German technology and scientists?).
China...couldn't organise a cluster fuck? Where do you think most of the electronics in your house came from? Have a look at your CD player, your stereo, and half the components in your computer. They don't say Dallas, Texas or Lawrence, Kansas (yes I've lived in Kansas too). Telephones, Logitech Mouses (or is that meeses), clocks, watches, tools, you name it and the odds are good it says made in China on the back.
I notice this tendency to keep referring to the UN, but the UN really hasn't got anything to with the discussions here in this thread. It isn't a governing body. We're actually talking about world governments recognising the need to jointly address issues of global importance.
So you think you've travelled? Not in my world you haven't. Not if you think the world worships Americans. From the silly fat American who yells at a French waiter that he wants "fat-free ice cream" to the Americans who walk into an Asian (Indian) restaurant and ask for beef...the general impression isn't one of worship but bemusement at the often childish antics and apparent cultural ignorance. Not all Americans are this way, fortunately and I'm not about to tar all Americans with the same brush. It seems only the loud ones are that way which is why they get noticed wherever they happen to be.
Serious thread? Sure it can be, but not when it degenerates into childish insults and ethnocentric convictions that border on paranoia.
I'll close on this idea that America has a monopoly on freedom. The French invented the idea of "freedom" that is idealized in America (read Franklin if you're in doubt) and they still pursue it today. I've not been anyplace in Europe where I felt my freedom smothered in any way.
Life in the world isn't black and white...neither are solutions.
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06-02-2001 04:39 PM
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lavender
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International Herald Tribune
June 1, 2001
http://web.archive.org/web/20010604225904/http://www.commondreams.org/views01/0601-03.htm
"HONG KONG - Anti-Americanism is on the rise again. Evidence is anecdotal, and a very clear cause like the Vietnam War is lacking. But from surprising and diverse quarters one is hearing hostile sentiments aimed at America in general rather than simply at specific policies.
George W. Bush is not the cause, after only four months in office. But he has perhaps been a catalyst, with actions ranging from environmental policies to missile defense stimulating latent anti-American viruses. Like any anti-ism, this is an emotional reaction rather than anything susceptible to reasoned discussion. But it needs to be recognized as a troubling trend.
In Asia, some current complaints could be dismissed as the frustrations of the China lobby at Washington's new, hard-nosed attitude to Beijing. For every China sympathizer crying "foul" there are probably a Japanese, an Indian and a Malay quietly cheering Mr. Bush's arms sales to Taiwan and courtesy to the Dalai Lama.
But there is a sense that being the only superpower has gone to America's head, as if it were now the only power. In particular, it can set the rules of globalization, defining its "good" and "bad" aspects.
There is nothing new about congressional disdain for the United Nations, but it has been thrown into sharper focus by the push for economic liberalization and globalized brands. So the world must have Coca-Cola and McDonald's, but not globalized decision-making.
The issue of an international human rights court may not be a major global concern. But when America lectures other countries on the need for legal frameworks and institutions, its own refusal to accept international jurisdiction is seen for what it is. Anti-Americanism feeds on such once un-American phenomena as the concentration of international media in few (and sometimes highly ideological) hands. Much damage is being done to the pluralism of which the United States is so justly proud by its self-promoting multimedia news combines. If America - not its citizens - is seen to press its narrow corporate interests rather than its philosophy of freedom and diversity, the outcome will be negative for America and the world.
That world, and Asia in particular, is used to lectures on the merits of competition. But how many global users of personal computers and the Internet can escape Microsoft?
In various theaters the image of the United States as the gentle giant, the peacemaking intermediary, may be eroding. One never used to hear much comment in East Asia about Israel/Palestine and the U.S. role, but that may be changing. If Washington fails, due to domestic pressures, to put its full weight behind its own Mitchell report, its honest broker role and global acceptance of its commitment to racial equality will suffer.
Its reputation is already being eroded as outsiders perceive, rightly or not, its government to be too influenced by fundamentalist Christians.
Much of the world has long wanted the United States to take leads because it believed that America was well-motivated and in the forefront of social and technological progress. It likes to see America lead by example. But if America is seen, as with emission standards, to put narrow domestic interests before global needs, respect can easily turn to disappointment and contempt.
The same applies to trade liberalization. The U.S. record is superb, but doubts are being raised. Does it really want China in the World Trade Organization? Does it put trade with the Americas before WTO progress? The doubters are probably wrong, but that there are doubts is worrying. America's assumptions about its own economy are also drawing ire. East Asia mostly made a pragmatic response to its financial crisis, opening up trade to competition and industries to foreign takeover as required by the IMF. The easy money and tax cutting policies now being pursued in the United States are the very opposite of the austerity forced on Asia when it ran into its debt and over-investment problems. America's response to its own problems, its failure to subject itself to monetary discipline, is possible because of the dollar's dominant reserve currency role. One is now hearing in Asia the sentiment that Charles de Gaulle expressed in the 1960s. Why should a country with a huge deficit still be able to buy other countries' industries by using its reserve currency status?
It is of course not America's fault that Japan and Europe have failed to establish their currencies' credibility, or that Asian monetary cooperation has proved minimal. But those concerned to halt the spread of the anti-American virus cannot ignore this issue.
Europe's periodic bouts of anti-Americanism have never become overwhelming. Sensible friends and allies want the United States to use its technological superiority to maintain its global reach as others, such as China, gain in relative strength and ambition.
But it does America no favors to deny that resentment of its attitudes and assumptions has been increasing. The nation which invented public relations should look to its own."
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06-01-2001 07:19 PM
Closet Desire
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Whew...
I'm an American living abroad and have to say it is no mere illusion that people are scrutinizing the US very closely for what is seen a very hypocritical posture in areas of financial responsibility, human rights, recognition of international authorities (which the US helped establish), etc.
When I first moved here several years ago I tried to justify many of the actions of my homeland and, in many ways, I still can. But, there have been some recent actions which defy logic and suggest that while the rest of the world is still moving ahead, progressing, America is suddenly putting on the brakes and saying "that's far enough."
I posted an excerpt on another thread from CNN about the recent Amnesty International report which noted growing problems in the US in terms of its prison population, police brutality, the use of stun weapons, and outright torture. Of course, the headline and what the rest of the world is noticing is that the US is one of five countries that perform 90% of all the world's executions (China, Iraq, Iran, US, and Saudi Arabia). On the world stage these seems to contradict what the US preaches about human rights.
I dunno, but recently I find myself being embarrassed by what comes out of leaders' mouths and worry about what it means in the future.
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06-01-2001 07:48 PM
WriterDom
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We've just been through a "do nothing" administration who lead by opinion polls for the past 8 years. Now we should listen to a reporter's international poll?
And if you think the world is a safer place from Clinton's treasonous actions with China, then you better think again. I think one reason China is pissed off is they didn't get any return on their investment in Al Gore.
Am I concerned about what the world thinks? No matter what you do, half the world will disapprove. As long as we are walking through the valley of death with the biggest fucking stick, I don't really care if our taxes are among the lowest of all industrial nations, or if we wipe our ass with paper instead of our hand.
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06-01-2001 08:36 PM
Myst
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Dom is right... should we really care that what we see as right isn't necessarily in the norm in other countries? Isn't it well known that Americans are loathed throughout the world?
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06-01-2001 08:42 PM
Brit
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There is a difference between being hated and a lack of respect. Some coutries, perhaps traditional enemies, do have a history of American bashing because they don't agree with what they stand for. It is different when a country that shares many aims and values of the US starts to loose faith in it because of the hipocrasy. (pardon my spelling)
The issue here is not that you are pissing off some extreme regimes who's opinions don't matter. You are risking losing the freinds you once had. I am not saying you are there yet but there is a level of arrogance which certain factions in the US are fast approaching which will alienate the rest of the world. And I mean all of it. You have had a few years as the only superpower but the world is changing. We are more a global society than ever. You cannot stay in your old role of being alone and right by divine providence. The international community is real and you have to accept that you will be a part of it not simply "it".
Sorry if that sounds a bit like a lecture but I actually like America and want to see a future where America is one of the leading roles in the international community but you have to be totally on board or you won't acheive that. Look at the UK in Europe. The constant arguments and fear of loss of soverignty have stopped us taking the best out of it and perpetuated the fear that we are getting a raw deal.
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06-01-2001 09:05 PM
dza
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whatever
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hmmmm, very interesting
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06-01-2001 09:13 PM
Closet Desire
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A dose of reality...
That's right, America doesn't need anybody. The biggest debtor nation in the world doesn't need to trade to with others. Just close those borders and tell 'em all to go to hell.
The US manufactures very little of what it uses, imports most of its steel, nearly all of its oil, imports computer components and systems, wears clothes made in the far east, and frankly has very little capacity of its own in some key areas. Critical resources like nickel, cobalt, copper, etc. Is it coming from your backyard? Nope, it's imported too.
You're smack dab in the middle of a global economy whether you like it or not and while the US may wield a lot of influence in the markets it certainly doesn't dominate them entirely.
Walking with the biggest stick eh? I retired from the US Navy and I can you that it's impotent as hell without friends who will provide a friendly port, places to refuel, and food to feed the troops. Hong Kong just said "no" to port visits by an American ship. Where you gonna go when everyone says "no".
As the earlier writer said, it isn't that you should worry what the enemies of the US are saying. You should be worried when your friend tells you you're screwing up.
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06-01-2001 09:51 PM
unusuallyconfused
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You know America has been one of the most charitable nations in the world and we give tons of money, supplies, etc. I don't think any other country can boast that. It seems to me that having a global decision makers like the UN make US policy is fucking scary. We didn't elect those of the UN. Do you think they will put the best interest of Americans in place. Where is the government of the people by the people if the UN makes international policy and possibly our national policy. Every person who knows history should understand that Government takes what is given then takes more. Remember Absolute Power breeds Absolute Corruption. Its makes me wonder sometimes how the book of revelation prophesies that indicated that there will be one world leader. With the UN, that could happen. Like I said, It is fucking scary.
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06-02-2001 01:15 AM
lavender
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Although the Bush crew fails to see this, the actual philosophy that drives current international relations is global interdependence. This means that all nations are closely connected. Economic policies in Mozambique have effects upon France's economy. The United States' human rights policies effect Indonesia. There is an interconnectivity that globalization has created.
We must realize this. Isolationism is no longer an effective solution (as if it ever truly was). We must engage the nations of the world in order to promote our agenda.
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06-02-2001 01:26 AM
unusuallyconfused
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It seems to me to that establishing world trade at the expense of our democracy is too high of a risk. I am not sure I would be willing to pay the price. I would rather have less than that.
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06-02-2001 01:31 AM
fgarvb1
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IT'S US DAMN EVIL AMERICANS AGAIN.!
So what else is new again.? Don't worry this country goes through spells like this several times a century.
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06-02-2001 06:24 AM
CRaZy
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by unusuallyconfused
You know America has been one of the most charitable nations in the world and we give tons of money, supplies, etc. I don't think any other country can boast that. It seems to me that having a global decision makers like the UN make US policy is fucking scary. We didn't elect those of the UN. Do you think they will put the best interest of Americans in place. Where is the government of the people by the people if the UN makes international policy and possibly our national policy. Every person who knows history should understand that Government takes what is given then takes more. Remember Absolute Power breeds Absolute Corruption. Its makes me wonder sometimes how the book of revelation prophesies that indicated that there will be one world leader. With the UN, that could happen. Like I said, It is fucking scary.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Before I start, let me make it clear that this is about the American government and its policies, not the people. Any outsider watching your political process can clearly see that the decisions being made by the government are generally not those of the populace.
Any charitable funds provided by any government have a political agenda. The hard, cold, cynical facts. Read about Timor sometime. This was a country in which systematic genocide took place for 20 years. It was only political expediency (Indonesia had pissed Australia off) which finally made Australia do something about it. The same applies to the goverment of the United States. There is always a great hooha about the considerable funds provided to rebuild Cambodia. The United States goverment fails to mention that it wouldn't have needed to be rebuilt if they hadn't bombed the fuck out of it during the Vietnam War, thus allowing Pol Pot to gain power.
The United States and Britain are the biggest weapons manufacturers in the world. America makes 23 types of landmines. They sell them indiscriminately, often to opposing factions, depending on who is offering the most at the time. Land mines are the weapon of choice in guerilla skirmishes. When it's all over, the United States goverment says, "Oh how awful. Look at all those poor people with their limbs blown off. Let's send a few doctors and some antiseptic. We're such a goddamned charitable nation after all. God bless America."
For years, the United States has sold weapons to both China and Taiwan. They do not recognise Taiwan as a country. Yet, if any other government was selling arms to a non country, they would cry foul.
The real people who do proper charity work in dark corners of the globe where it isn't very politically beneficial are groups like Red Cross and Medicins Sans Borders. The biggest contributer per capita to international charity funds is New Zealand bless them. And, last I heard, they weren't fighting with anyone (except the Aussie rugby team).
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06-02-2001 07:22 AM
p_p_man
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Not interdependent eh?
dza and fgarvb1
I won't repeat the list that Closet Desire has made but for those of you who have made lightweight remarks (dza and fgarvb1) about such an important subject as this thread I would suggest that you take more notice of comments made by those of us who seem to have a wider perspective on world affairs than yourselves.
It's no good bleating that "half the world doesn't like Americans" or "it's America's fault again...", it sounds too much like the child who is unable to compete and uses the "people don't like me" shit to explain their failures. For all I know you might well be like that but, let's face it, you should have lost that attitude years ago.
This thread is about the loss of your allies and long term friends, it's about a changing world where once a country could retreat into isolationism and be sorely missed by other nations to a world where their retreat into isolationism would not have such a great impact on the world stage. Take note of what Closet Desire and lavender have written about America's dependence on imports. It's true. They haven't made it up, they didn't pluck those facts from middair to write interesting posts.
So little asides as you've both written might make you look cool and clever in the short term but all it does to the rest of us is make us wonder how people can be so blind as not to see the obvious.
I believe that America is approaching one of the more serious, and possibly the most serious, crises, in her relatively short lifespan. It will be up to people like yourselves to protect yourselves as best you can.
The rest of us will help, of course we will, but it would give us great pleasure to see you gain wider viewpoints and put things right yourselves.
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06-02-2001 10:22 AM
Closet Desire
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Absolute Power...
Every country is guilty of being ethnocentric and thinking that it is the most charitable, the most generous, the most just, but when you've spent time in other parts of the world you learn that this just isn't the case.
People are people the world over. I've found the people everywhere I've gone (including Paris...hee hee) to be charitable and hospitable. The US isn't the only one that provides aid to countries hit by starvation, earthquake, storm, etc. Having seen some of the figures I would suggest that in many cases the aid provided by some European nations is proportionally greater than that of the US.
Yes the US is often quick to step in with aid (and make a public spectacle of it), but not too surprisingly so is the rest of the civilised world. The US is also very quick to put conditions on the aid it provides. Oh, you endorse abortion in your country? Well, that doesn't sit well with us so we won't provide you with any more aid to fight AIDS, STDS, or control pregnancy.
Somebody made reference to the overused cliche about absolute power corrupting absolutely. Hmmmm. The US still holds over 11,000 strategic and tactical nuclear warheads in its arsenal and is proceeding with wanting to deploy Tridents in England and Europe (ostensibly to protect "them" from a threat that no longer exists). The US now has more than ten fully equipped carrier battle groups, the largest submarine fleet, air superiority that outguns anyone else's, and one of the largest standing armies in the world. I ask you...who is in danger of succumbing to "absolute power"?
[Edited by Closet Desire on 06-02-2001 at 04:17 AM]
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06-02-2001 12:15 PM
Andra_Jenny
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It is easy to see the jealousy of the rest of the world. Our allies feel very "free" to turn their backs on us after the considerable expenditure on our part to return them to freedom. They are all a bunch of Jeffers.
By banding together, and trying to kick and cajole us into submission they hope to bring us down to their level so that they may feel, look, and be more important in the world.
Egomania and ignorance must surely rule the rest of the world, which is why we must be diligent and continue to be the strongest ones in the world, because we are obviously the only "sane" members of the world community.
Britan. Don't call us next time unless you're willing to be there in the bad times.
France, the next time the Germans come, they keep it. OKAY?
Anybody else, China included, who gives a rats ass what they think? They proved historically that they can't organize a cluster-fuck, let alone clean up the world.
It's no wonder some people did not respond seriously to this thread. It does not even deserve reasonable response.
But that's just my view of most everything outside of Kansas (and yes, I have traveled about quite a bit in your world and have seen for myself how the people of most countries worship the ground we walk on, its YOUR FUCKING governments that are the problem. The French really do want Micky D's and the English will just fucking love Walmart. I still say we pave Europe and turn it into an amusement park. Hell, what you think now is pretty damn funny when you think about it).
That's my rant!
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06-02-2001 01:37 PM
unusuallyconfused
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Ok, this is a very serious subject. A couple of points, If you are going to use the fact that we destroyed a country and there was no "charity" in providing funds to rebuild it I believe you would be completely off base. Do you think any other country would give a shit? Of course we do it for our own political gain, however, the compassion from our people keeps our politicians in line. AT least we can vote someone out if they go against our will. We are currently generating considerable income to Russia, we didn't bomb them. We could go on and on. It may be for political advantage, but the fact is we do help. Is that not the bottom line. Shall we go back in history to find how many countries have destroyed others and didn't give a shit.
Yes I said "absolute power corrupts absolutely" but at least with the US there is still a process of eliminating a person by impeachment if they are out of control. There are still many countries that do not have that ability. I certainly would rather have an accountable George Bush be in charge of the most powerful nation on the earth than a Saddam Hussein. I believe on this topic we are going to have to agree to disagree. I still believe giving our sovereignty to the UN is Fucking SCARY.
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06-02-2001 02:35 PM
CRaZy
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by unusuallyconfused
We are currently generating considerable income to Russia, we didn't bomb them. We could go on and on. It may be for political advantage, but the fact is we do help.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Err...no, the American propoganda machine and the CIA convinced the Russians that democracy with the Mafia controlling industry and big business and the inevitable inflation-unemployment cycle that comes with fiscal policy would be SO much bloody better than a country which certainly gave its people less freedom of speech but which had 100% employment and at least SOME food on the table. Sigh.
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06-02-2001 02:59 PM
daMafia
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das right.... we controll everyting in da woild.... we collect da taxes... we run All da police departments... we say hoo gets elected... we even run da un...
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06-02-2001 03:47 PM
daMafia
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and of course.... der was NO coruption in da Soviet Union before da breakup.... it ONLY happened after...
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06-02-2001 03:50 PM
Closet Desire
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Some finer points...
It was the Russians who actually allied with the US and helped turn the tide of the German advances. It was also the Russians who suffered the heaviest losses...9 million men as I recall plus women and children. Making an income for the Russians? Don't kid yourself. NASA leapt ahead in space technology when the iron curtain rusted away by gaining access to power cell technology, biological data, and other things. The Russians are very smart, resourceful people whose technical innovation rivals that of the US. In a sense they are very simliar to Americans in "can do" attitude. The Russian commercial space program is doing well not because of handouts from the US but because they can launch communication satellites sooner and cheaper than the US. Hell, I'm invested in Sirius radio and all three of their satellites were launched successfully and on time by Proton rockets in Russia. The US doesn't exactly have the market cornered in space technology.
For all its ingenuity the US didn't invent one of the greatest weapons of WWII, it was right down the street from where I live right now at the Marconi labs that radar came into existence. The device was basically smuggled to the US for production. Yes, the US was a very important player in the war and no doubt swung the outcome, but the US had as many vested interests in the outcome as the rest of allies. If Germany had succeeded in taking all of Europe it would not have wasted much time turning full-time to tackling the US with its own nearly developed nuclear weapons AND ballistic delivery capabilities (surely you haven't forgotten that nearly all of the US space programme was based on captured German technology and scientists?).
China...couldn't organise a cluster fuck? Where do you think most of the electronics in your house came from? Have a look at your CD player, your stereo, and half the components in your computer. They don't say Dallas, Texas or Lawrence, Kansas (yes I've lived in Kansas too). Telephones, Logitech Mouses (or is that meeses), clocks, watches, tools, you name it and the odds are good it says made in China on the back.
I notice this tendency to keep referring to the UN, but the UN really hasn't got anything to with the discussions here in this thread. It isn't a governing body. We're actually talking about world governments recognising the need to jointly address issues of global importance.
So you think you've travelled? Not in my world you haven't. Not if you think the world worships Americans. From the silly fat American who yells at a French waiter that he wants "fat-free ice cream" to the Americans who walk into an Asian (Indian) restaurant and ask for beef...the general impression isn't one of worship but bemusement at the often childish antics and apparent cultural ignorance. Not all Americans are this way, fortunately and I'm not about to tar all Americans with the same brush. It seems only the loud ones are that way which is why they get noticed wherever they happen to be.
Serious thread? Sure it can be, but not when it degenerates into childish insults and ethnocentric convictions that border on paranoia.
I'll close on this idea that America has a monopoly on freedom. The French invented the idea of "freedom" that is idealized in America (read Franklin if you're in doubt) and they still pursue it today. I've not been anyplace in Europe where I felt my freedom smothered in any way.
Life in the world isn't black and white...neither are solutions.
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06-02-2001 04:39 PM
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