Doormat- a byproduct of approach?

[Angedesoleil]

In the limits thread there has been a really interesting side conversation happening, and a few people hinted at starting a discussion thread, but no one has.

The topic is this:
As a submissive: do you find yourself tending to be a doormat in your D/ s relationship?
If so, is it a positive or a negative?
Why do you think this is the case?

As a Dominant:do you tend to notice this behavior in your submissive(s)?
Is it a positive or negative for you?
Why?


I've personally done quite a bit of soul searching on this topic since it was first brought up. I think it is one of the things I originally faced a lot of guilt over, because it is so drummed into our heads that this is codependent behavior and thus unhealthy.
After much reflection I believe it is a byproduct of how I view my own submission and how I approach a relationship with a Dom.

In my opinion:
Doormat is a byproduct of a type submissive mentality. Remember like there are different kinds of Doms there are different kinds of subs. I tend to be the kind they are talking about. Like I said it is a byproduct, not a stated goal. When I'm in a committed D/s relationship I tend to make my PYL the center of my world. My Sir and I have discussed that he basically becomes my rubric, my measure of success, happiness, and self worth. I put his needs and desires at the forefront. I do so not completely altruistically, this pleases me. It makes my world *awesome*. When I know I've done *super hard thing* but I succeeded and it pleased him I'm in heaven. Cue angels singing. Likewise, if I let him down, even if the letdown is only in my head ... I'm destroyed. Ex: he MENTIONED he had an interest in electric play, but I had a panic attack at the thought so he scrubbed it...he isn't upset...I would still be kicking myself because I didn't succeed **unless** he called me to task for doing his job for him (ie determining my success or failure) in which case I'd smile kiss him and be all good again.

None of that is doormat. That is the mentality that creates it. Now, the byproduct doormat is that because my desire to please him and my self worth/ happiness is so wrapped up in him, I will put myself so far on the back burner that I tend to not voice myself. I tend to try to *know* what he will want and then alter me to fit it; think your vanilla definition of codependent.

Now, vanilla world would deem/ judge this as wrong/ unhealthy/ bad. I do not. It is how I approach D/s. I'm good with me. I'd only want to be with a Dom who understood me, accepted that responsibility, and appreciated it.
Just my own two cents.

 

[Pantyboy74]

In the limits thread there has been a really interesting side conversation happening, and a few people hinted at starting a discussion thread, but no one has.

The topic is this:
As a submissive: do you find yourself tending to be a doormat in your D/ s relationship?
If so, is it a positive or a negative?
Why do you think this is the case?

As a Dominant:do you tend to notice this behavior in your submissive(s)?
Is it a positive or negative for you?
Why?


I've personally done quite a bit of soul searching on this topic since it was first brought up. I think it is one of the things I originally faced a lot of guilt over, because it is so drummed into our heads that this is codependent behavior and thus unhealthy.
After much reflection I believe it is a byproduct of how I view my own submission and how I approach a relationship with a Dom.

In my opinion:
Doormat is a byproduct of a type submissive mentality. Remember like there are different kinds of Doms there are different kinds of subs. I tend to be the kind they are talking about. Like I said it is a byproduct, not a stated goal. When I'm in a committed D/s relationship I tend to make my PYL the center of my world. My Sir and I have discussed that he basically becomes my rubric, my measure of success, happiness, and self worth. I put his needs and desires at the forefront. I do so not completely altruistically, this pleases me. It makes my world *awesome*. When I know I've done *super hard thing* but I succeeded and it pleased him I'm in heaven. Cue angels singing. Likewise, if I let him down, even if the letdown is only in my head ... I'm destroyed. Ex: he MENTIONED he had an interest in electric play, but I had a panic attack at the thought so he scrubbed it...he isn't upset...I would still be kicking myself because I didn't succeed **unless** he called me to task for doing his job for him (ie determining my success or failure) in which case I'd smile kiss him and be all good again.

None of that is doormat. That is the mentality that creates it. Now, the byproduct doormat is that because my desire to please him and my self worth/ happiness is so wrapped up in him, I will put myself so far on the back burner that I tend to not voice myself. I tend to try to *know* what he will want and then alter me to fit it; think your vanilla definition of codependent.

Now, vanilla world would deem/ judge this as wrong/ unhealthy/ bad. I do not. It is how I approach D/s. I'm good with me. I'd only want to be with a Dom who understood me, accepted that responsibility, and appreciated it.
Just my own two cents.

I enjoyed reading this post.
Some interesting points made.
I may add my 2 penneth at some point.

 

[BensSweetSubmissive]

I'm interested in reading the responses to this thread. I'm not sure I'm totally clear on the meaning of "doormat" in a D/s context. That word carries a negative connotation for me. Mainly, letting someone walk all over you. (An actual doormat is useful. It serves a purpose. I'm glad I have one, but might not fully appreciate it until it went missing) I guess, I've always associated it with a not good quality to have...having heard the saying, "Don't be a doormat" plenty of times.

That said, I can sort of see the appeal of those that choose to be a doormat in a D/s situation. In a sexual context, I wouldn't mind being used as, or feeling like, a doormat. Then again, I would view it more as "serving" or "pleasing" my Master. Which, in turn, would make me happy. But for the "relationship" part of it, no...I don't want to be a doormat. I don't want to be taken for granted, taken advantage of, or overlooked because I'm too compliant.

This probably sounds like I'm bashing doormats. I'm not. Part of my problem is that I have trouble "not being a doormat" in everyday life. Because of my submissive nature, I tend to be too nice. Or too willing to help others. It makes it easy for people to just assume you won't mind doing x, y, or z when they need it. Friends and family don't think twice before asking for favors, and sometimes they just expect you to help out. It's also hard to say "no" without feeling bad.

This can also be a problem at work. I want to do a good job and please my clients and supervisors. So I'm a hard worker. Might "go the extra mile" on a project to make it perfect. If I'm not careful, that can lead to having extra reponsibilities dumped in my lap without extra compensation, reward, or acknowledgment.

So, this doormat thing can be tricky. Knowing how to prevent being taken advantage of, and embracing it when it's an intentional characteristic. Maybe others can shed a different light on it for me. Looking forward to hearing a lot of different views

 

[cookiecat]

(An actual doormat is useful. It serves a purpose. I'm glad I have one, but might not fully appreciate it until it went missing)

Can't fully answer right now. I need some time to put together thoughts because when I say I like my doormat qualities, people tend to say BUT YOU'RE NOT A DOORMAT! It has so many loaded, negative connotations.

The part I quoted above is key. It's about being useful. Knowing and serving a purpose. It doesn't mean getting walked all over, but being THERE. Counted on in a quiet, steadfast way.

More later.

ps - Thanks Angedesoleil for starting the thread!!

 

[Angedesoleil]

.........

 

[lillianaZ]

What cookie said about being dependable and steadfast. Just quietly always there. That resonates.

 

[yukonnights]

I don't have any profound insight on this...Just a simple thought: It doesn't seem unusual at all that this tendency would blend over between 'real life' and 'D/s life'. Sometimes the two don't, but probably more often they do. The big difference is that D/s should be a nurturing expression of the innate traits we have...a place where they can be 're-set' into a healthy state...a state where the person we really are is cherished by another person. The 'real world' is where our innate traits are too often abused and warped by 'normal people'.

Seems that if we can find the right partner, then it brings balance back into our lives...or at least that's the goal. (But this may all just be the babbling of a fool )

 

[Mustang Sally]

I don't have any profound insight on this...Just a simple thought: It doesn't seem unusual at all that this tendency would blend over between 'real life' and 'D/s life'. Sometimes the two don't, but probably more often they do. The big difference is that D/s should be a nurturing expression of the innate traits we have...a place where they can be 're-set' into a healthy state...a state where the person we really are is cherished by another person. The 'real world' is where our innate traits are too often abused and warped by 'normal people'.

Seems that if we can find the right partner, then it brings balance back into our lives...or at least that's the goal. (But this may all just be the babbling of a fool )

Yukon, that is really beautiful.

 

[Primalex]

A doormat gets the stuff done that it was designed for.

 

[Farawyn]

I'm interested in reading the responses to this thread. I'm not sure I'm totally clear on the meaning of "doormat" in a D/s context. That word carries a negative connotation for me. Mainly, letting someone walk all over you. (An actual doormat is useful. It serves a purpose. I'm glad I have one, but might not fully appreciate it until it went missing) I guess, I've always associated it with a not good quality to have...having heard the saying, "Don't be a doormat" plenty of times.

That said, I can sort of see the appeal of those that choose to be a doormat in a D/s situation. In a sexual context, I wouldn't mind being used as, or feeling like, a doormat. Then again, I would view it more as "serving" or "pleasing" my Master. Which, in turn, would make me happy. But for the "relationship" part of it, no...I don't want to be a doormat. I don't want to be taken for granted, taken advantage of, or overlooked because I'm too compliant.

This probably sounds like I'm bashing doormats. I'm not. Part of my problem is that I have trouble "not being a doormat" in everyday life. Because of my submissive nature, I tend to be too nice. Or too willing to help others. It makes it easy for people to just assume you won't mind doing x, y, or z when they need it. Friends and family don't think twice before asking for favors, and sometimes they just expect you to help out. It's also hard to say "no" without feeling bad.

This can also be a problem at work. I want to do a good job and please my clients and supervisors. So I'm a hard worker. Might "go the extra mile" on a project to make it perfect. If I'm not careful, that can lead to having extra reponsibilities dumped in my lap without extra compensation, reward, or acknowledgment.

So, this doormat thing can be tricky. Knowing how to prevent being taken advantage of, and embracing it when it's an intentional characteristic. Maybe others can shed a different light on it for me. Looking forward to hearing a lot of different views

I like a lot of this.
More later, when I can think.

 

[cookiecat]

A doormat gets the stuff done that it was designed for.

Easy peasy.

Nice to see you.

 

[Shortnsweet33]

I'd say I'm far from doormat, as a submissive. I've actually had some doms get annoyed with me, clearly wasn't the right fit. In the process of forming the d/s relationship, the submission and trust must be earned. I've had experiences online and offline where immediate submission was expected. I can be a bit independent and feisty, yet still love to submit. I've had fun if I find the right doms who aren't looking for the perfect angel of a sub off the bat and are up for a bit more of a challenge.

 

[yukonnights]

I'd say I'm far from doormat, as a submissive. I've actually had some doms get annoyed with me, clearly wasn't the right fit. In the process of forming the d/s relationship, the submission and trust must be earned. I've had experiences online and offline where immediate submission was expected. I can be a bit independent and feisty, yet still love to submit. I've had fun if I find the right doms who aren't looking for the perfect angel of a sub off the bat and are up for a bit more of a challenge.

Ss, I've highlighted a part of a sentence of what you've said in order to toss out this;

This BDSM Forum, in general, is possibly the most important of all the Forums on Lit. It has the greatest chance to educate and inform about a potentially harmful lifestyle. It's been said thousands of times, but it never hurts to emphasize that; the onus should be on the Dominant to be wise. To take the time to learn that this is more than just beating or bullying someone to achieve personal satisfaction.

An ignorant Dom is potentially a dangerous Dom...not just in a physical reference, but perhaps more importantly in an emotional reference. In my, more or less worthless opinion; A Dom who gets annoyed isn't there yet. A Dom who can't, or doesn't care to, read signals...isn't there yet. A Dom should be aware enough and wise enough to stop, and be the one who says, "This isn't working for us." and either talk through the issues or end the relationship gracefully.

 

[Primalex]

A Dom who gets annoyed isn't there yet.

Yes - how can a human dare to be a human.



(In reality, we are not talking about a dominant here, but about a delusional take on male perfectionism. Nobody bats an eye when a female dominant gets annoyed with her male sub.)

 

[Farawyn]

I'd say I'm far from doormat, as a submissive. I've actually had some doms get annoyed with me, clearly wasn't the right fit. In the process of forming the d/s relationship, the submission and trust must be earned. I've had experiences online and offline where immediate submission was expected. I can be a bit independent and feisty, yet still love to submit. I've had fun if I find the right doms who aren't looking for the perfect angel of a sub off the bat and are up for a bit more of a challenge.

I disagree with this for different reasons than yukon.
Your implication is submissive is not simpatico with “independent and feisty”?
I want to make sure I’m understanding. If that’s what you are saying, I wholeheartedly disagree.
If that’s not what you are saying, I’m misunderstanding. Can you clarify?

And very few Doms and subs work perfectly right off the bat.
The chemistry and inclination may be there, but it still take a work and communication. Like any relationship.

 

[Farawyn]

that's because female subs are childish porcelain dolls while male subs are brainless meaty punching bags.

the many delusions are part of what makes the whole arrangement so risky.

Actually, isn’t the sub the “punching bag”?

 

[elli1point1]

I think making one's happiness and self-worth depend on other people, particularly on just one individual, is unhealthy and dangerous – both in D/s and vanilla relationships.

 

[Shortnsweet33]

Ss, I've highlighted a part of a sentence of what you've said in order to toss out this;

This BDSM Forum, in general, is possibly the most important of all the Forums on Lit. It has the greatest chance to educate and inform about a potentially harmful lifestyle. It's been said thousands of times, but it never hurts to emphasize that; the onus should be on the Dominant to be wise. To take the time to learn that this is more than just beating or bullying someone to achieve personal satisfaction.

An ignorant Dom is potentially a dangerous Dom...not just in a physical reference, but perhaps more importantly in an emotional reference. In my, more or less worthless opinion; A Dom who gets annoyed isn't there yet. A Dom who can't, or doesn't care to, read signals...isn't there yet. A Dom should be aware enough and wise enough to stop, and be the one who says, "This isn't working for us." and either talk through the issues or end the relationship gracefully.

Oh, I totally agree. If someone is not willing to discuss the nitty gritty and also gain the trust on a personal level, then it's normally a no for me. Especially because you know that as a submissive, you are putting yourself in someone's hands. If a dom tries to push too quickly or gets frustrated with a sub wanting to take their time, it's a red flag. But as for online play, I also appreciate a general conversation before any d/s interaction.

 

[Shortnsweet33]

I disagree with this for different reasons than yukon.
Your implication is submissive is not simpatico with “independent and feisty”?
I want to make sure I’m understanding. If that’s what you are saying, I wholeheartedly disagree.
If that’s not what you are saying, I’m misunderstanding. Can you clarify?

And very few Doms and subs work perfectly right off the bat.
The chemistry and inclination may be there, but it still take a work and communication. Like any relationship.

Oh no, I get what you're saying! In fact, many submissives often lead very independent/leadership-based lifestyles outside of their BDSM lives. I guess it's just that many so called "doms" that one encounters online except immediate submission and servitude. Whenever I try to explain myself to them and that they must earn my trust, then they often tell me I am not a true submissive, or something along those lines.

I totally agree with you on the communication aspect. It is SO important in any relationship, and especially in the world of BDSM.

 

[Farawyn]

I think making one's happiness and self-worth depend on other people, particularly on just one individual, is unhealthy and dangerous – both in D/s and vanilla relationships.

This.
Thank you.
That’s what I feel about a doormat, as a feminist and a sub.

I was my ex hub’s doormat for years. He wiped his feet on me and left me on the stoop until the next time. I allowed it. For years. If he was not happy, I was not happy. If he was angry, I assumed it was at me. Wipe your feet on me. Do it again, I’m right here. Oh, you don’t want to talk to me? Okay. I’ll just stay here until you need to wipe the shit off your boots again.

Sexually, if and when we did have sex, we were not D/s. So, none of the dynamic crossed over. Like a good doormat, I waited for his moods.

The thing now... I have someone who hears me. Who wants my moods. Who works hard for me every day. He is my love, but also a very patient Dom, and I know he thinks I’m a pretty damn good sub. Perfect for me, even if we argue.

I want to be the one, THE ONE, to be there for him, and so does he. I’m a nurturer... mom, nurse, daughter...so we have that part covered.
My thing, which hasn’t been a problem yet, is that I like degradation. Name calling. Slapping. A little mocking. Being pushed and thrown around. It’s part of our relationship.

I don’t know how I reconcile all that with my past, when I was actually emotionally and verbally abused. (That took me a long time to say.)
But I do.
Maybe because I know he won’t wipe his shitty boots on me (symbolically or real) without some serious talk first.

 

[Farawyn]

Oh no, I get what you're saying! In fact, many submissives often lead very independent/leadership-based lifestyles outside of their BDSM lives. I guess it's just that many so called "doms" that one encounters online except immediate submission and servitude. Whenever I try to explain myself to them and that they must earn my trust, then they often tell me I am not a true submissive, or something along those lines.

I totally agree with you on the communication aspect. It is SO important in any relationship, and especially in the world of BDSM.

Thank you so much for clarifying, and yes. I agree.
My thinking on that? That the online Doms are playing a game, called “go online on my lunch hour and pretend to be a Dom.”
They have no idea what they are doing, and they don’t like women.

 

[barefootgirl69]

Oh no, I get what you're saying! In fact, many submissives often lead very independent/leadership-based lifestyles outside of their BDSM lives. I guess it's just that many so called "doms" that one encounters online except immediate submission and servitude. Whenever I try to explain myself to them and that they must earn my trust, then they often tell me I am not a true submissive, or something along those lines.

I totally agree with you on the communication aspect. It is SO important in any relationship, and especially in the world of BDSM.

This is one reason I don't go "looking for a Dom" and have never made a personals ad. I enjoy chatting and getting to know people, and I enjoy when it turns into something more.

But, I'm not in the "he must earn my trust" camp, either. What will he have to do? How does one earn something like that? Trust simply happens when you feel safe, respected, and he's been honest anf forthright. Just being himself. That's a guy I can feel pulled to want to submit to. It's not a gift I give, because I cannot help but desire to submit. If things end, you don't take 'gifts' back - but desires to Dominate someone or submit to someone cease.

 

[barefootgirl69]

Thank you so much for clarifying, and yes. I agree.
My thinking on that? That the online Doms are playing a game, called “go online on my lunch hour and pretend to be a Dom.”
They have no idea what they are doing, and they don’t like women.

Not all of them, sometimes online is their outlet because of things in their life that don't allow them to be who they are.

Then, there are those who will tell you they are Dom, but only want someone to abuse verbally or humiliate.

Not interested in that.

 

[lillianaZ]

My happiness and self-worth doesn’t depend on what anyone thinks but I am happier when the people around me are satisfied and happy.

 

[yukonnights]

lillianaZ,

That was lovely...and sad. No words can accomplish the healing you are working on, and yet it is so often all we have to offer. So I do offer mine; Your mind is sound and you know what to do. I hope you can push away the fears that say; You're trapped...you'll never be free. I believe that love is stronger that anything that we face in life...it's love for yourself and even the love of the fact that love exists. Despair would extinguish the hope love brings, if it could. But if I choose to believe in love, it grows and becomes a part of myself...and one day I find that I am happy, filled with an inner joy.

But one need not feel obligated to share that with someone who is determined to remain mired in darkness. One can only do so much to help another person, then they have to suffer on their own. Love can hope for them, but every person has to make their own choices on the way they will walk through this life.

I hope you can forgive, on a higher plane. Not in the sense of pardoning or acceptance, but simply out of the realization that person is damaged...perhaps beyond your help. Love is very often the thing that heals me, not the one I sympathize with...that is up to them. ~