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Teenage Venus said:
How fucked up is it....
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The_old_man
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So long as the Muslim "Clergy" do not condemn and excommunicate those that commit terrorist actions, they will continue.
One possible way to, at least, give pause to that "clergy" would be to unilaterally threaten to destroy a Muslim holly shrine if the terror does not stop. The temple in Jerusalem would be a good hostage.
One possible way to, at least, give pause to that "clergy" would be to unilaterally threaten to destroy a Muslim holly shrine if the terror does not stop. The temple in Jerusalem would be a good hostage.
Colleen Thomas
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The_old_man said:
Mainstream Islam does little to condem terrorist activity. For a long time, it seemed they had little power to deal with fanatics in their ranks, but the recent actions which forced the release of two frenchmen shows they can do something if they want. They simply don't want to.
They consider France to be a freindly nation to Arabs and thus they acted in concert and as one voice to make sure the French journalists were released unharmed. At the same time, they say virtually nothing about other acts of terror. It would seem to me that this makes them culpable to any act of terror commited in the name of Islam.
Culpable or not, it would seem the height of folly to sink to the level of the worst of them. On the other hand, they seem to understand the principle of reprisal very well. Still, while they may do nothing to stop terrorism, the majority of Islamic clergy aren't terrorists. If you start messing with their holy places, that could change over night. Muslim does not equate to terrorist. If we try to approach a complex problem with such simplist definitons, we are sure to do more harm than good.
-Colly
Black Tulip
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The_old_man said:
Trouble is, there is no such thing as The Muslim Clergy, or The Islam. There are just as many flavors there as in Christianity, or I suspect in any other major religion.
Most muslims, the man from the shop, the woman three doors down the street, do not agree with the actions of terrorists.
Not according to the British Broadcasing Corporation they weren't. Within 36 hours traces of explosives were found in the first 'plane, and within another 24 hours traces were found on the second one.Lauren Hynde said:
As soon as the news boke about the first one being terrorist, a group claimed responsibility for both.
I wonder how much news about terrorism is suppressed in the US because the networks do not want to be accused of causing panic?
Black Tulip
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Snooper,
Now that you mention it. The news was out in the Netherlands as soon as in the UK. No mystery here either.
Now that you mention it. The news was out in the Netherlands as soon as in the UK. No mystery here either.
Lauren Hynde
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My bad, then. I was a few days away from any source of information at around that time and must have missed it.snooper said:
I confirmed, though, that the Russian state television didn't give it much relevance, so as far as the average Russian citizen is concerned, it never happened.
I suppose there are no news about terrorism on US media because there is no terrorism in the world, now that Godsent W. Bush is in charge. Gosh, everyone knows that!...
Teenage Venus
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You have hit on one of the main causes for 'Mr & Mrs Joe American',s lack of understanding of why 'the world' is against them. it is also why we have so many 'ill-informed' fanatically patriotic flag wavers.
The average American is quite ignorant of what REALLY goes on in the rest of the world, and the causes of the fanatical hate so many have for us. We are fed so much 'selective' news and propaganda, and given only what seems 'good' for us. Only because assorted sites on the web published pics of the attrocities committed by our troops - and continue to do so - was government and media finally forced to admit the 'some minor infringements' had been comitted by a very few.
I correspond with a student in Iraq. She spent Wednesday queued for seven hours with hundreds of others, outside one of the prisons run by the US in Ramullah, hoping to see or hear of her two brothers or father.
She does this alternate days with her brother, and has done so for seven months. The three were picked up by US soldiers by breaking into the house in the middle of the night. (Her brothers are students, her father a hospital worker.) She swears they never had a gun in the house, have never taken part in any demonstration, or any other activity that may be considered anti-American. I have no reason to doubt her.
Those three are just three of over ten thousand Iraqis collected in the area, and incarcerated , held without charge or trial in dreadful prison conditions without access to relatives. Many of those prisoners are beaten, tortured, subjected to deprivation, sexually assaulted, raped, and other illegal practices on a regular basis. (This is known because of information supplied by workers in the prison, and from disgusted, disillusioned US personnel with access to prisoners, and knowledge of what is happening.)
She said that reporters are not allowed in, and that she saw an English BBC TV crew threatened and manhandled by US troops for filming and talking to those waiting for information, or permission to see loved ones.
The above is just one instance of 'censureship' which is withheld from us at home. I could detail much more.
The US is as equally guilty of suppressing information, and feeding us propaganda as Russia or China, or any other country was at its worst. I correspond with students in many countries, I listen to national and independent newscasts from around the world. It seems there are two versions of most events: The one presented to the US public - and the one the rest of the world gets.
My friend in Ramullah says that up to a few months ago, all but a few religious zealots in Ramullah were either non-committal, or pro American 'liberation'. Following purges, indescriminate imprisonment, very heavyhanded treatment by US forces, the Ramullah population is now a unified, religiously driven mass of of people filled with hate against America and all it stands for.
The inhabitants now equate America with Israel, believing all Americans to be Jews, and the inborn hatred of Jews among Arab nations is something so strong few Westerners can comprehend.
Whatever our intentions were in Iraq, we have succeeded in producing a deadly enemy of those who should be our grateful friends.
We must not forget that 'terrorism' was almost invented by the US - particularly CIA - to persue big business interests throughout the world by supporting rebel factions, or setting them up to oust legitimate governments opposed to US policy.
I wish I could feel genuinely proud to be American. I can not. I think few could stand with hand on heart and say THEY were proud if they knew what 'we' really are like when it comes to our true oversees policies, and how these are handled and carried out in 'our' name.
Terrorism is frightening: be it suicidal bombing, or our own brand.
Colleen Thomas
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Seven people were killed in the raid, ITAR-Tass said, and some 310 hostages — most of them children — were wounded, officials from the regional Health Ministry told the news agency. At least four of the dead were children. Sixty-nine children were admitted to one hospital — five in grave condition, the head of the hospital said. A nurse spreading sheets on stretchers told The Associated Press that Russian officials expected "very many" wounded.
You must give the Rusians credit, they stay pretty true to form. I suppose here the only positive thing you can say is at least these Chehan rebels apparently had second thoughts about the wisdom of blowing themselves up, despite their claims that they would.
-Colly
You must give the Rusians credit, they stay pretty true to form. I suppose here the only positive thing you can say is at least these Chehan rebels apparently had second thoughts about the wisdom of blowing themselves up, despite their claims that they would.
-Colly
Colleen Thomas
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minsue said:Unless that's how they ended up with 310 wounded.
I didn't want to rip the whole articl, but it said only 5 militants were killed and the other 13 fled. Of course, this is Russian state news, so the exact tolls may be a long time in coming, if the details ever come out.
-Colly
Black Tulip
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The Dutch correspondent on the spot reported the whole shooting this morning started because they had negotiated to get inside for carting off some 20 bodies. The ones to go inside were the Spesnaz guys.
Who said this was going to happen?
Apparently two terrorists have blown themselves up right at the beginning of the whole thing.
The people who managed to escape last night, reported about 1000 hostages.
Who said this was going to happen?
Apparently two terrorists have blown themselves up right at the beginning of the whole thing.
The people who managed to escape last night, reported about 1000 hostages.
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Update
This news is about 30 mins. old now, from the WA Post. - Perdita
-----------
Peter Baker and Susan Glasser - Washington Post Foreign Service, September 3, 2004; 12:44 PM
BESLAN, Russia, Sept. 3 -- The hostage standoff at a school near Chechnya turned tragic Friday with hundreds of children and adults killed or injured in an afternoon of fighting that continued sporadically into the night. The exact sequence of events Friday remained confused. It apparently started when authorities were fired upon as they tried to retrieve the bodies of people killed three days ago when the siege began and reached a climax when Russian special forces stormed the building and fought with rebel gunmen room by room.
The school became a battlefield, with authorities deploying artillery, assault helicopters and tanks and the gunmen firing automatic weapons and grenades. In the chaos, escaping hostages were shot in the back. Booby trap bombs exploded inside the school. And the roof on a gym collapsed in a fiery heap.
In that gym, Alan Karayev, a volunteer who entered to help bring out the bodies, saw a gruesome scene. "The whole floor is covered in bodies," he said, estimating there were hundreds of dead children. "There is no ceiling at all. The roof all fell down on the children."
Men carried burned, charred and bloodied children from other parts of the school, stuffing their lifeless bodies into the sides and backs and trunks of their cars and ambulances. Some of the children appeared to have sustained shrapnel wounds inside the school, where booby traps loaded with pieces of metal reportedly had been placed. "Many, many dead. Many dead children," said a young boy who said he had been "blown out of the window by an explosion." The distraught boy, comforted by his wailing grandmother, did not appear injured but a Washington Post reporter observed four dead children and a dead adult close by him. More than 400 people were hospitalized.
As evening arrived, rebel gunmen were still reported to be holed up in the school basement, facing down the Russian troops. Meanwhile, authorities said that the total number of hostages was 1200, higher than any figure previously reported. Roughly 70 percent of the hostages were children.
A senior Russian security official said Friday's assault on the school had not been planned, wire services reported. "I want to point out that no military action was planned. We were planning further talks," the regional head of the FSB security service, Valery Andreyev, told RTR television. The troops, it appeared from initial reports, went into the school after a battle that began at 1 p.m. local time (5 a.m. EDT), when authorities reportedly attempted to retrieve bodies of people who had been killed near the school at the outset of the seizure, according to Russian news agencies. Negotiations over the recovery of the bodies had preceded the recovery attempt.
As the retrieval was underway, two loud explosions, possibly from grenade launchers, were heard, followed by sustained automatic weapons fire. Unconfirmed news agency reports said some of the guerrillas attempted to escape the school while authorities were retrieving the bodies. Other reports said hostage-takers had opened fire on the individuals recovering the bodies.
Amid the shooting, children and adults began fleeing the school, prompting more gunfire, some of it aimed toward the school, some of it coming from the school. At one point, some armed civilian men ran toward the school in an apparent attempt to retrieve children. Many of them quickly retreated, however, after being fired on from within the building.
At the same time, according to the Interfax news agency, some of the hostage-takers tried to break out through the crowds amid the chaos and were fired upon by security forces. At some point in the mayhem, the first group of police or soldiers headed toward the school, followed later by special forces. Russian attack helicopters circled overhead.
Gunfire was sustained for about 45 minutes and was then sporadic after the troops entered the school. Some two hours after the initial battle, smoke rose from the school.
Meanwhile, children clad only in their underwear were being treated or comforted in makeshift hospitals outside. The children had stripped down because of the 90 degree-plus heat in the building. Groups of women, screaming and wailing, gathered close by.
(This isn't the entire article, the rest reviews events since Wed.)
This news is about 30 mins. old now, from the WA Post. - Perdita
-----------
Peter Baker and Susan Glasser - Washington Post Foreign Service, September 3, 2004; 12:44 PM
BESLAN, Russia, Sept. 3 -- The hostage standoff at a school near Chechnya turned tragic Friday with hundreds of children and adults killed or injured in an afternoon of fighting that continued sporadically into the night. The exact sequence of events Friday remained confused. It apparently started when authorities were fired upon as they tried to retrieve the bodies of people killed three days ago when the siege began and reached a climax when Russian special forces stormed the building and fought with rebel gunmen room by room.
The school became a battlefield, with authorities deploying artillery, assault helicopters and tanks and the gunmen firing automatic weapons and grenades. In the chaos, escaping hostages were shot in the back. Booby trap bombs exploded inside the school. And the roof on a gym collapsed in a fiery heap.
In that gym, Alan Karayev, a volunteer who entered to help bring out the bodies, saw a gruesome scene. "The whole floor is covered in bodies," he said, estimating there were hundreds of dead children. "There is no ceiling at all. The roof all fell down on the children."
Men carried burned, charred and bloodied children from other parts of the school, stuffing their lifeless bodies into the sides and backs and trunks of their cars and ambulances. Some of the children appeared to have sustained shrapnel wounds inside the school, where booby traps loaded with pieces of metal reportedly had been placed. "Many, many dead. Many dead children," said a young boy who said he had been "blown out of the window by an explosion." The distraught boy, comforted by his wailing grandmother, did not appear injured but a Washington Post reporter observed four dead children and a dead adult close by him. More than 400 people were hospitalized.
As evening arrived, rebel gunmen were still reported to be holed up in the school basement, facing down the Russian troops. Meanwhile, authorities said that the total number of hostages was 1200, higher than any figure previously reported. Roughly 70 percent of the hostages were children.
A senior Russian security official said Friday's assault on the school had not been planned, wire services reported. "I want to point out that no military action was planned. We were planning further talks," the regional head of the FSB security service, Valery Andreyev, told RTR television. The troops, it appeared from initial reports, went into the school after a battle that began at 1 p.m. local time (5 a.m. EDT), when authorities reportedly attempted to retrieve bodies of people who had been killed near the school at the outset of the seizure, according to Russian news agencies. Negotiations over the recovery of the bodies had preceded the recovery attempt.
As the retrieval was underway, two loud explosions, possibly from grenade launchers, were heard, followed by sustained automatic weapons fire. Unconfirmed news agency reports said some of the guerrillas attempted to escape the school while authorities were retrieving the bodies. Other reports said hostage-takers had opened fire on the individuals recovering the bodies.
Amid the shooting, children and adults began fleeing the school, prompting more gunfire, some of it aimed toward the school, some of it coming from the school. At one point, some armed civilian men ran toward the school in an apparent attempt to retrieve children. Many of them quickly retreated, however, after being fired on from within the building.
At the same time, according to the Interfax news agency, some of the hostage-takers tried to break out through the crowds amid the chaos and were fired upon by security forces. At some point in the mayhem, the first group of police or soldiers headed toward the school, followed later by special forces. Russian attack helicopters circled overhead.
Gunfire was sustained for about 45 minutes and was then sporadic after the troops entered the school. Some two hours after the initial battle, smoke rose from the school.
Meanwhile, children clad only in their underwear were being treated or comforted in makeshift hospitals outside. The children had stripped down because of the 90 degree-plus heat in the building. Groups of women, screaming and wailing, gathered close by.
(This isn't the entire article, the rest reviews events since Wed.)
Teenage Venus
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Sat listening to overseas news now, the only good I see coming from this is that another "Freedom Fighter (terrorist) Group must SURELY have LOST any support that anyone outside their small group may have had for them.
Other groups take notice - fight fair against genuine opponents, and you may win your cause.
Use suicide bombing and taking children hostage will surely make you lose it - and your worthless life along with it.
You are not fit to be called human - any of you. Those of you that do it in the name of religion are not only scum, but do the very religion you support - and it's members - irreparable harm. That you can not see this is more proof of your insanity.
The members of the same religions that allow/support, or do not excommunicate such scum are scum yourselves. Your 'God' that allows you to carry out this evil in his name would make 'Satan' look WHITE, if stood alongside. What a REAL BASTARD you must worship.
For the children
Other groups take notice - fight fair against genuine opponents, and you may win your cause.
Use suicide bombing and taking children hostage will surely make you lose it - and your worthless life along with it.
You are not fit to be called human - any of you. Those of you that do it in the name of religion are not only scum, but do the very religion you support - and it's members - irreparable harm. That you can not see this is more proof of your insanity.
The members of the same religions that allow/support, or do not excommunicate such scum are scum yourselves. Your 'God' that allows you to carry out this evil in his name would make 'Satan' look WHITE, if stood alongside. What a REAL BASTARD you must worship.
For the children
millennium_bard
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I had thought that this would happen.
Terrorists are not rational people by definition.
Expecting them to act in a reasonable manner is just naive.
All it would take was for them to force the hand of the military, and sure enough, the fools did just that.
My heart goes out to the families of those hostages killed.
But for the hostage takers, I feel nothing but a merciless fury.
I honestly hope that every one of the scum sucking bastards dies.
preferably slowly under Spetsnaz interrogation.
While in the Army, we studied the Spetsnaz techiques (know thine enemy) and they are too horrifying to go into here. But I hope that those sub-humans who took those children hostage get to experience those techniques up close and personal.
I can never have children, so I will never know first hand the grief of losing a child.
But I have seen friends who have lost children through accident or illness.
Anyone who would willingly put parents through the agony of having to bury their murdered children deserves nothing but extinction.
Sorry for the rant folks.
Terrorists are not rational people by definition.
Expecting them to act in a reasonable manner is just naive.
All it would take was for them to force the hand of the military, and sure enough, the fools did just that.
My heart goes out to the families of those hostages killed.
But for the hostage takers, I feel nothing but a merciless fury.
I honestly hope that every one of the scum sucking bastards dies.
preferably slowly under Spetsnaz interrogation.
While in the Army, we studied the Spetsnaz techiques (know thine enemy) and they are too horrifying to go into here. But I hope that those sub-humans who took those children hostage get to experience those techniques up close and personal.
I can never have children, so I will never know first hand the grief of losing a child.
But I have seen friends who have lost children through accident or illness.
Anyone who would willingly put parents through the agony of having to bury their murdered children deserves nothing but extinction.
Sorry for the rant folks.
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