neo-feminist view

[Liar]

I'm hoping you don't need me to draw pictures...



Q_C

We have a thread fot that, y'know. Go ahead.

 

[Quiet_Cool]

We have a thread fot that, y'know. Go ahead.

*sigh*



They'll laugh at my stick figures...

Q_C

 

[Liar]

*sigh*



They'll laugh at my stick figures...

Q_C

It's your new ism. Claim that and don't take no shit from nobody.

 

[Quiet_Cool]

It's your new ism. Claim that and don't take no shit from nobody.

Stick-ism...

Me likes it...

You'll back me on this, yes?

Q_C

 

[CharleyH]

hmmm

What I am is a neo-feminist. Definition: "One who respects her body so much that she won't allow it to be used as someone's playground."

Not even her own, (body if you require qualification) apparently. This is NOT a neo-feminist. LOL. LOL.

 

[sweetnpetite]

hmmm
found this this morning , and I have to say, I think she'll feel she missed out later. with no experience how do you know if the husbands any good? maybe she'll read alot..
Herw's the article for those like me who hate to have to click

By Elizabeth Sandoval
41 minutes ago
No, I am not an ultraconservative who is cohabitating with a houseful of cats and TiVo'ing Lifetime movies. I'm a middle-of-the-road 32-year-old who likes tattoos and loud music. And yes, I am cute (I've been told by friends and strangers alike). So you can put aside the notion that I'm bitter about not being offered the chance to have sex.


What I am is a neo-feminist. Definition: "One who respects her body so much that she won't allow it to be used as someone's playground."


Handsome Man at a Bar, you think I'm cute? Thanks. Do you appreciate me or the idea of having sex with me? Because your thinking has likely been influenced by the cavortings of Samantha and Co. in the "city" or the women in most rap videos. I am not those women. If you want a workout, go get a one-day pass at Bally. It's free.


Members of the "Sex is Natural and Fun and If It Makes You Happy, It Can't Be That Bad" club want sex so badly that they willingly and repeatedly live out the following scenario: Things go "great" for a month or two. Sex quickly becomes a part of your interactions. Maybe he even meets your parents. And then, well, things just change. He dumps you or you dump him.


Regardless of why the relationship died, you are now one of many women whom he could point out on the street. "See her?" he can tell his buddies. "She's cute, huh? Yeah, I had her." I never want to be "her."


The "You Have to Know if You're Sexually Compatible or the Marriage Will Be Doomed" club will argue that one out of two marriages end in divorce, so you have to know that you're sexually compatible before you can even contemplate marriage. Well, maybe one out of two marriages end in divorce precisely because people are too free with sex. Many people don't take time to establish real communication with one another. It's false intimacy.


Many women today are weak-minded in that they readily accept society's portrayal of sexual norms. The people on The O.C. are doing it. Paris Hilton, as she's hosing down that Bentley, appears ready to do it. And more important, many people they actually know are doing it. The sheer prolificness of sex seems to make the decision for them. Women are non-self-respecting because they willingly sacrifice such an important part of their being for just a few moments of pleasure. And they're oblivious because they don't contemplate the profoundness of sex.


Women give it up as if it's nothing. When in fact, it is everything.


Elizabeth Sandoval is a writer who lives in Los Angeles

See that hot guy over there? I did him. Oh, and he wasn't very good- or very impressive either. On the other hand, see that Hottie? I had him too. He was good. Very good. In fact, I think I'll call him tonight...

Puleeze! Give me a break. This woman is NOT a "neo-feminist" she's just what she claims not to be, only she either doesn't know it, or she's just trying to attract a different audience. If she were any kind of feminist, she wouldn't be buying into the same old double standard- sex is something sacred for women, but vulgar for men. that self respect means not 'giving it up.' Like it's something a man 'gets' and something a woman 'gives up.' I mean give me a break. This is feminist thinking?

And then she says that women don't think for themselves when deciding to have sex? That we are all brainwashed by tv and rock videos to think sex is meaningless? That she alone knows what sex means to everyone "it's everything" That sex for a woman is being 'used.'

Feel free to have those beleifs and all- but don't call them feminsm.

I don't need someone else to tell me weather or not I respect myself, based on her perception of my sex life. And I certainly don't equate self-respect with virginity. Sex is everything? Well, yes- I'm nothing if I'm not a pure and chaste virgin for my future husband. That's very feminist thinking.

What I am is a neo-feminist. Definition: "One who respects her body so much that she won't allow it to be used as someone's playground."

Hey, I respect my body, my mind, and my soul. So much so that when I have sex, it's for me and the person I'm with. It's a playground for both of us. It's a mutual decision, not a surender of my self-respect.

 

[CharleyH]

See that hot guy over there? I did him. Oh, and he wasn't very good- or very impressive either. On the other hand, see that Hottie? I had him too. He was good. Very good. In fact, I think I'll call him tonight...

Puleeze! Give me a break. This woman is NOT a "neo-feminist" she's just what she claims not to be, only she either doesn't know it, or she's just trying to attract a different audience. If she were any kind of feminist, she wouldn't be buying into the same old double standard- sex is something sacred for women, but vulgar for men. that self respect means not 'giving it up.' Like it's something a man 'gets' and something a woman 'gives up.' I mean give me a break. This is feminist thinking?

And then she says that women don't think for themselves when deciding to have sex? That we are all brainwashed by tv and rock videos to think sex is meaningless? That she alone knows what sex means to everyone "it's everything" That sex for a woman is being 'used.'

Feel free to have those beleifs and all- but don't call them feminsm.

I don't need someone else to tell me weather or not I respect myself, based on her perception of my sex life. And I certainly don't equate self-respect with virginity. Sex is everything? Well, yes- I'm nothing if I'm not a pure and chaste virgin for my future husband. That's very feminist thinking.




Hey, I respect my body, my mind, and my soul. So much so that when I have sex, it's for me and the person I'm with. It's a playground for both of us. It's a mutual decision, not a surender of my self-respect.

Here is an intriguing question ( I know you will love it SnP). Do men think of themselves as feminists? How so? (any sub-category will do after the initial def. ) and how do women relate to or define feminism, which should, in fact, be the first question before we even talk NEO-feminism?

 

[rgraham666]

Here is an intriguing question ( I know you will love it SnP). Do men think of themselves as feminists? How so? (any sub-category will do after the initial def. ) and how do women relate to or define feminism, which should, in fact, be the first question before we even talk NEO-feminism?

Myself, I prefer the term 'humanist'.

Anything that lessens the status of a woman, lessens me. Anything that lessens the status of a man, lessens me.

We're all in this together. And despite years of looking and listening, and even a little participating, I find most of us just want the same thing: to lead good and happy lives.

 

[CharleyH]

Myself, I prefer the term 'humanist'.

Anything that lessens the status of a woman, lessens me. Anything that lessens the status of a man, lessens me.

.

But, feminism as a theory does not lessen the status of men, RG? So, why do you think it does?

 

[sweetnpetite]

I'm not saying she is the pinnacle or that women who do sleep around or who strive to comprehend sex before settling down are bad and naughty and all the sexist bullshit men use to keep women's self-esteem down. And I think most fail to fit the model she presents (the stereotypical woman who has molded herself into a mere male plaything and no longer has any resepct for herself and who generally receives little pleasure from the sexual encounters herself).

Overall, I guess my main point is that all the "hah hah, look at the "virgin archetype" and how she fails to conform, let's all hate her and tell her to get dicked" is the same sexist bullshit that gets hurled at the "slut archetype" which infers that since they want to enjoy sex and understand their body, they must be willing and have given it to everyone including Joe the kumquat salesman. We must fight this sexism not be co-opted by it. If we do that, the Horde has already won.

Well, that's the problem I have with her. She is saying that women can't have sex outside of marriage and respect themselves. If that's not a patriarchal attitude, I hardly know what is. I agree that if she wants to save herself for that one special person, that's fine, but to say that chosing to have sex is degrading yourself is just representing the other side of the coin for the 'slut archetype'- she has clearly devided women into those who don't respect themselves 'slut archetype' and those who wait.

 

[Liar]

Here is an intriguing question ( I know you will love it SnP). Do men think of themselves as feminists? How so? (any sub-category will do after the initial def. ) and how do women relate to or define feminism, which should, in fact, be the first question before we even talk NEO-feminism?

Depends on the definition of feminism. I'm for equality between sexes. But some say that is not enough to be called a feminist...not until this becomes your primary goal in everything you do and say. In which case I'm not a feminist. Because frankly, I have other things on my mind too.

But, feminism as a theory does not lessen the status of men, RG?

I've heard a gazillion different versions on feminism as a theory, and a small but certain amount of them do. The confusion of what feminism is is making me so cross-eyed that I try to avoud the question most of the time.

 

[sweetnpetite]

One more thing, part of what made me take her tone as bitter was her "Sex is something men do to us." attitude and language. I don't buy that. I own my own sexuality. I claim my lust, my desire and all the things I choose to do with it. Sex is something, on whatever level, shared with another person/persons. It's a team sport. I am not the playing field, I am not the dead and powerless ball, I wear a jersey, I got on cleats, I'm on the team, I'm in the damn game.

Preach it sister!

You put that better than I ever could.

 

[rgraham666]

But, feminism as a theory does not lessen the status of men, RG? So, why do you think it does?

Did I say that Charley? Where?

I'm not sure I can express what I think without offending someone, but I'll try. To express myself that is. I can offend people without trying.

Quite simply, to me, women are people too. Except for minor and uninteresting, from an ethical point of view, biological differences, we are all pretty much the same. There is no reason in my mind why one gender should be held to a different set of expectations and limits than the other.

We're a single species. Anything that affects one, regardless of sex, affects us all.

The best metaphor I can come up with at the moment is, "A slave's chain has two ends."

Please note: the biological differences between men and women are not minor and uninteresting from a fun point of view.

 

[CharleyH]

Well, that's the problem I have with her. She is saying that women can't have sex outside of marriage and respect themselves. If that's not a patriarchal attitude, I hardly know what is. I agree that if she wants to save herself for that one special person, that's fine, but to say that chosing to have sex is degrading yourself is just representing the other side of the coin for the 'slut archetype'- she has clearly devided women into those who don't respect themselves 'slut archetype' and those who wait.

I think my questions further WoodNyphs's. The initial post was sarcasm - where do we go from there?Obviously deeper.

I think men do NOT 'get' feminism. Its facets, history. Its place in history, its branches, its place in culture. Men 'get' women as much as we gringo's get black people.

I do see how Luce's post got your goat, on what you quoted, but not what you responded, too.

Example: "the stereotypical woman who has molded herself into a mere male plaything and no longer has any resepct for herself and who generally receives little pleasure from the sexual encounters herself".

Out of context I know.

1) All women are MOLDED into a stereotype - its called A WIFE
2) A suppossed SLUT/ plaything has more freedom than any male ever could, yet is a slut and a male is a stud. Go figure.
3) Not all, but many younger women are not pleasured by their male lovers. In fact aside from Lit, I know few who were, or are still, even at their age quite frankly.

 

[CharleyH]

Did I say that Charley? Where?

I'm not sure I can express what I think without offending someone, but I'll try. To express myself that is. I can offend people without trying.

Quite simply, to me, women are people too. Except for minor and uninteresting, from an ethical point of view, biological differences, we are all pretty much the same. There is no reason in my mind why one gender should be held to a different set of expectations and limits than the other.

We're a single species. Anything that affects one, regardless of sex, affects us all.

The best metaphor I can come up with at the moment is, "A slave's chain has two ends."

Please note: the biological differences between men and women are not minor and uninteresting from a fun point of view.

I could pick on this, but won't. Initially I was curious about "Anything that lessens the status of a woman, lessens me. Anything that lessens the status of a man, lessens me."

Because the status of a white man is never really lessened in the world, and since it is a white mans world in Western culture, how on earth could anything lessen the status of men on this hierarchy? Nothing lessens you as a white man, except as a thought. So how can you sympathise, let alone empathise?

I get both of those end thoughts in this post, btw

 

[The_Fool]

I could pick on this, but won't. Initially I was curious about "Anything that lessens the status of a woman, lessens me. Anything that lessens the status of a man, lessens me."

Because the status of a white man is never really lessened in the world, and since it is a white mans world in Western culture, how on earth could anything lessen the status of men on this hierarchy? Nothing lessens you as a white man, except as a thought. So how can you sympathise, let alone empathise?

I get both of those end thoughts in this post, btw

Picking fights again.....

 

[sweetnpetite]

Preach it sister!

You put that better than I ever could.

Originally Posted by Willow Rain
One more thing, part of what made me take her tone as bitter was her "Sex is something men do to us." attitude and language. I don't buy that. I own my own sexuality. I claim my lust, my desire and all the things I choose to do with it. Sex is something, on whatever level, shared with another person/persons. It's a team sport. I am not the playing field, I am not the dead and powerless ball, I wear a jersey, I got on cleats, I'm on the team, I'm in the damn game.

When I first read this, I read it wrong. I thought that the last sentence was "I'm the damn game." (As an empowering sentence. Like the way Triple H uses it in wrestling)

 

[rgraham666]

Charley, I'm too tired and angry to argue.

Later.

 

[sweetnpetite]

It seems as if "Can men be feminists" is it's own thread. (Maybe one I've read before...) It's pretty off topic from the article.

To me, the main issue of the article is that she claims to be a neo-feminist and then writes her own definition which pertains only to sex.

Although feminism means different things to different people, this just doesn't qualify. If she wanted to show that this was a feminist view-point then she should have backed that up *somehow.* Instead she used a circular argument and bastardized the the word 'feminism' hijacking it for her own perposes. I don't care if she gets laid or not. Good on her either way. Bad on her for that lame article and her lame attemps to misrepresent herself. Neo-conservative, maybe; Neo-feminist- NOT!

 

[sweetnpetite]

I do think men can be feminists however.

The short answer is: A man can be a feminist just the same as a white person can be an abolishonist. You don't have to 'get' being black. Nor do you have to 'get' being a woman. You're a feminist if your beliefs and actions are femanist in nature. (Whatever that means)

Women don't 'get' men's experience, history and so forth, but that doesn't stop many of them from being patriarchal either. Being female doesn't automatically make you a feminist, and being male doesn't automatically make you not one.

 

[CharleyH]

Picking fights again.....

Only if you wanna wrestle.

 

[The_Fool]

Only if you wanna wrestle.

Winner owes the loser oral sex....

 

[CharleyH]

Depends on the definition of feminism. I'm for equality between sexes. But some say that is not enough to be called a feminist...not until this becomes your primary goal in everything you do and say. In which case I'm not a feminist. Because frankly, I have other things on my mind too.
I've heard a gazillion different versions on feminism as a theory, and a small but certain amount of them do. The confusion of what feminism is is making me so cross-eyed that I try to avoud the question most of the time.

Any woman is a feminist if she does not belong to the US org. REALwomen.

There are categories and many sub-categories. Men sometimes think a feminist is a hardcore thing. Unless you actually know the stuggle? Can you be a feminist as a man? You and I are white. Unless we know the black struggle ? Can we get be a part of, or really sympathise or empathise with the black struggle?

Why is it so easy for white men to say, "I am a feminist"?

 

[CharleyH]

It seems as if "Can men be feminists" is it's own thread. (Maybe one I've read before...) It's pretty off topic from the article.

To me, the main issue of the article is that she claims to be a neo-feminist and then writes her own definition which pertains only to sex.

Although feminism means different things to different people, this just doesn't qualify. If she wanted to show that this was a feminist view-point then she should have backed that up *somehow.* Instead she used a circular argument and bastardized the the word 'feminism' hijacking it for her own perposes. I don't care if she gets laid or not. Good on her either way. Bad on her for that lame article and her lame attemps to misrepresent herself. Neo-conservative, maybe; Neo-feminist- NOT!

Yes, agree . Bbad for her - it was a lame article, and so, as intelligent people - we discuss, no? Well RG is mad somehow (goad)

 

[CharleyH]

Winner owes the loser oral sex....

You better have a sensual tongue and not a jabber!