neo-feminist view

[Guest]

Myself, I prefer the term 'humanist'.

Anything that lessens the status of a woman, lessens me. Anything that lessens the status of a man, lessens me.

We're all in this together. And despite years of looking and listening, and even a little participating, I find most of us just want the same thing: to lead good and happy lives.

Well said.

 

[CharleyH]

Well said.

How is it, well said?

 

[Guest]

How is it, well said?

Because he's sweet and cute and I'd like to climb into his lap.

That's how.

 

[Liar]

Any woman is a feminist if she does not belong to the US org. REALwomen.

How about RealDolls? Can they be feminists?

There are categories and many sub-categories. Men sometimes think a feminist is a hardcore thing. Unless you actually know the stuggle? Can you be a feminist as a man? You and I are white. Unless we know the black struggle ? Can we get be a part of, or really sympathise or empathise with the black struggle?

Why is it so easy for white men to say, "I am a feminist"?

Because white men can see that a society that treats individuals differently based upon false assumptions (for instance, "women are not intelligent enough to be trusted to vote" or "black people are not really human") is shooting itself in the foot. I don't have to know diddly squat about the woman struggle or the black struggle to realise that. (Why you assume I am unable to emphathise I can not fathom, but that's another story.) But since that isn't your definition of the word, you see it differently.

See, this is the reason often I try to stay out of the feminism discussion. I just said "It depends on the definition." but whenever I try to coax a definition out of the one asking, I get no answer. If you have one, spell it out instead of implying in roundabout ways that I should know. What is a feminist, to you?

A feminist is a ___________ who ____________.

Fill in the blanks.

Or rather don't. I don't really care what -ism I'm labelled with. I know that I do what I can to level the scale, and that is enough for me.

 

[Willow Rain]

When I first read this, I read it wrong. I thought that the last sentence was "I'm the damn game." (As an empowering sentence. Like the way Triple H uses it in wrestling)

You are right, that is better. Let's pretend I said that

Willow

 

[rgraham666]

OK. Somewhat calmed down now, almost.

Charley, what the fuck makes you think that being a white male gives a person a free fucking pass in our system?

Christ! Our system gave up on me when I was nine! Sure, they kicked me upwards every year, but that was only to get me out of the system as quick as possible. If they could have, I would never have set foot in a school ever again. I was 'uneducable'.

And at least once a week, I got the shit kicked out of me by a group of 'normal' kids. And what did the system do? The same thing the system did when Jews got beaten in Nazi Germany. Nothing. No one cared. The system only is there for 'normal' people.

When I got to high school and discovered girls, I also discovered that girls would rather have a fresh cow patty shoved up their snatches than have anything to do with me. Why? Because I wasn't 'normal'. I didn't fit inside any of the criteria for what a 'desirable male' should be. I still, deep down, feel that undesirable.

And then on to the working world, where I had enormous trouble keeping a job. "Rob, you work hard and are very smart, but you're weird and you don't fit in. So you're fired."

So don't you dare give me your bullshit about 'not being able' to empathise or sympathise. I've damn near been destroyed by our wonderful system. I damn well do understand bigotry having been a victim of it all my life.

And I think your attitude, with its 'white, patriarchal' horseshit is just another form of bigotry.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

Here is an intriguing question ( I know you will love it SnP). Do men think of themselves as feminists? How so? (any sub-category will do after the initial def. ) and how do women relate to or define feminism, which should, in fact, be the first question before we even talk NEO-feminism?

Some do. Many are scared off though because though they hold the ideals of female egalitarianism dear and resistance against patriarchal society, they do not know whether they will be considered truly feminist.

I believe that there are the random handful of genuine egalitarian men out there who do what they can to empathize and join in on the struggle. Some of them are on this very forum (you know who you are).

I'm not sure how most women define feminism and this is even after going to feminism readings, having many feminist friends (both sexes), and reading feminist literature. The gist seems to me to be genuine egalitarianism and a resistance to the unconscious sexism and chauvinism that permeates modern society. This is probably completely wrong, forgive me, I have a penis.

Me, myself, I'm not a feminist. I'm just my own fucked-up extremist category (female superiority, fucked-up chivalry/feminism/Luciferism hybrid, etc...).

P.S. I think rg has a point, though a bit overdone that one can empathize with a feeling without taking part in it and can resist such bullshit despite it not being targeted directly at them. The same way a friend may have your back in an argument, so may a man join in solidarity against a chauvinist society. I also believe that the few men who do resist the sexist values our society adores should be applauded, encouraged, and set upon to give their all in the struggle. This is an inner struggle, I understand, but it doesn't mean we can't occassionally lend a hand or a few words of encouragement.

 

[sweetnpetite]

Men can be feminists- as long as they don't jump into the movement and try to take control.

(Partially tongue in cheek, but it does represent the 'problem' of men as feminists)

 

[Quiet_Cool]

Men can be feminists- as long as they don't jump into the movement and try to take control.

(Partially tongue in cheek, but it does represent the 'problem' of men as feminists)

Actually, it's more of a problem if we can't be feminists. It's like how many blacks don't seem to see any whites as similar to them. It builds a wall between the two that works against a movement. We're all equals, but because you aren't female, or black, or some other minority, you aren't welcome to join. It's kinda like what creates these issues to begin with, but now the minorities are doing it, and it's causing as many problems as it had to begin with.

And it never helps to say how can whitey do this and how can blacky do that? (no, don't give greeny the ball... SNL flashback, sorry) We can't focus on our generalized differences, when our individual differences outnumber and weigh them anyway. There's nothing about me as a white man that separates me from Cloudy, as an American Indian woman, that outweighs what seperates Cloudy as Cloudy from Quiet_Cool as Quiet_Cool. As individuals, we have more differences and more similarities. As parts of a group... Let's face it, all we can do is stereotype one another, and pretend we know something anyway, or believe that those of a similar "group" understand us better.

It's like rgraham said, be a humanists, and stop trying so hard to fit in with a group. Life's not a fucking High School. It doesn't matter what table you sit at. Eat your lunch and get on with the day, dumbass!

And as for what this woman said in her "article," it almost sounded like she was responding to something. That said, it would seem that, in order to understand why she chose to direct her comments in a direction that was notably referent to sex. Just something I saw in the wording. it almost sounded like she were referring to an editorial.

Q_C

 

[Pure]

I think Willow put it rather well

One more thing, part of what made me take her tone as bitter was her "Sex is something men do to us." attitude and language. I don't buy that.

It has the old ring of 'the sexual revolution took advantage of women and made them playthings for hippies and cool dudes.'

Her example gives the game away: She pictures walking down the street and Guy A says to Guy B, "I had her."

She is simply the Object, in her mind. It does not occur to her to be walking down the street with a friend, and say to him/her, about the fellow (or woman) across the way "I had him[her]."

IF there was a sexual revolution, it was about becoming a subject and actor, not merely an Object, acted upon.

Dr. Mab has much good to say here: In essence: she has a right to celibacy or monogamy (if she can find a monogamous male); BUT prescribing it as THE way to prevent exploitation is an old myth of Victorian times.

 

[LadyJeanne]

She starts off defensive (I'm not an ugly, boring, prude), and then quickly becomes offensive with her definition of neo-feminist - a term I've never heard of before. Is she making it up? Is there a neo-feminist political movement building out there? Who are they and what do they want to accomplish?

What I am is a neo-feminist. Definition: "One who respects her body so much that she won't allow it to be used as someone's playground."

Whatever a neo-fem might be, her definition of it reveals a limited view of what sex is and can be, and it's laced with disrespect toward both men and women who have sex for pleasure. It's a limited, jaded, cynical view.

Look at who she's talking to and how she talks to them:

Handsome Man at a Bar, you think I'm cute? Thanks...

Members of the "Sex is Natural and Fun and If It Makes You Happy, It Can't Be That Bad" club want sex so badly that they willingly and repeatedly...

...you are now one of many women whom he could point out on the street. "See her?" he can tell his buddies. "She's cute, huh? Yeah, I had her." I never want to be "her."

The "You Have to Know if You're Sexually Compatible or the Marriage Will Be Doomed" club will argue...

Many women today are weak-minded in that they readily accept society's portrayal of sexual norms...

...Women are non-self-respecting because they willingly sacrifice such an important part of their being for just a few moments of pleasure.

Whom hasn't she insulted? Virgins? What if they masturbate? Does that make them contemptible as well? What if they look for porn on the internet? What if they kiss goodnight? What if they fall in love? What if they fuck then? Is that OK? Is it ok if you're in love? What do the neo-fems say about love?

And they're oblivious because they don't contemplate the profoundness of sex.

To me, this article sounds like it was written by someone who has never FELT the profoundness of sex.

Women give it up as if it's nothing. When in fact, it is everything.

It is what you make it.


Elizabeth Sandoval is a writer who lives in Los Angeles. She wrote about what she knew. The truth is, this is going to make sense to more than a few women out in the dating scene. It's a shame that she speaks to us in such a condescending and derogatory way. Maybe it would do us some good to step back and consider what we want out of our romances and our sex lives, but masking the deeper issues with self-righteous celibacy sounds just as dumb and unproductive as having sex just because Paris Hilton does.

It's cheap of her to slap a pseudo-political label on her rant. She comes off as a woman who's been hurt, perhaps as one whose lover was unfaithful, maybe with one of those weak-minded, non-self-respecting women who want sex so very badly. It's a rant. Not a political statement.

 

[CharleyH]

OK. Somewhat calmed down now, almost.

Charley, what the fuck makes you think that being a white male gives a person a free fucking pass in our system?

Every day of my corporate existence and dating gives me many ideas. I like your use of the word "OUR" system.

Christ! Our system gave up on me when I was nine! Sure, they kicked me upwards every year, but that was only to get me out of the system as quick as possible. If they could have, I would never have set foot in a school ever again. I was 'uneducable'.

Maybe you are thinking wrong? Maybe you gave up?

And at least once a week, I got the shit kicked out of me by a group of 'normal' kids. And what did the system do? The same thing the system did when Jews got beaten in Nazi Germany. Nothing. No one cared. The system only is there for 'normal' people.

Never arguing this.

When I got to high school and discovered girls, I also discovered that girls would rather have a fresh cow patty shoved up their snatches than have anything to do with me. Why? Because I wasn't 'normal'. I didn't fit inside any of the criteria for what a 'desirable male' should be. I still, deep down, feel that undesirable.

You want my opinion here?

And then on to the working world, where I had enormous trouble keeping a job. "Rob, you work hard and are very smart, but you're weird and you don't fit in. So you're fired."

I doubt they said that without getting sued. Aren't all creatives odd?

So don't you dare give me your bullshit about 'not being able' to empathise or sympathise. I've damn near been destroyed by our wonderful system. I damn well do understand bigotry having been a victim of it all my life.

And I think your attitude, with its 'white, patriarchal' horseshit is just another form of bigotry.

You are angry about my post, but ... I think you above others should know me. You are, in your post, as prejudiced against the system as feminists may be against you. Have you ever thought about that? And you are a humanist? A Feminist?

PS: LOL, I aspire to Camille Paglia. always have. I won't say what I want to really say, that's saved for dinner, RG, but you just argued a very major part of my point.

 

[Liar]

I doubt they said that without getting sued.

You'd be suprised what crap "they" can get away with when they aim it at the right target.
Sounds to me that you think the world is a fair place, where mean people get what they deserve? Trust me, it's not.

Anyway, Im still waiting for your definintion of a feminist.

But, it seems that's a hope in vain:

PS: LOL, I aspire to Camille Paglia. always have. I won't say what I want to really say, that's saved for dinner, RG, but you just argued a very major part of my point.

Huh? No he bloody didn't. Or if he did, you are the only person who can possibly understand what you mean by that. You point at a serious post and sniggers, without explaining why. That's all you do. It's rude, it's condenseding and it's growing old. I know you Charley, you're better than that when you put your mind to it.

I mentioned this recently in another thread: If people don't understand you, you have failed to communicate. "I won't say what I want to really say" kind of suggests that you don't want to be understood.

Come on, luv. Humor me.

 

[rgraham666]

Maybe you are thinking wrong? Maybe you gave up?

Charley, few people, when they are nine years old, have an ego strong enough withstand the pressures of the system. When everybody, including your family tells you that you aren't worth the effort, most people, me among them, are going to believe them.

And sure I could have sued them, and lost. Unless I recorded every word of every conversation I had with my 'peers' and employers there would be remarkably little evidence of their unethical behaviour. And their lawyers are paid by the hour.

What I am angry about Charley is that you called into question one of the few things I am good at, my ability to empathise. I took it quite personally.

And to be perfectly honest, I doubt the world would be a better place if women ran things. Women like Margaret Thatcher, Indira Ghandi, Eva Peron, that Philipino woman with all the shoes, Anne Coulter, etc. ad infinitum show that women can easily be as venal, cruel, and unethical as men.

We're all just human beings despite the lies we tell ourselves.