No, the 2A does not guarantee anyone's right to form private, non-state armed forces

[Politruk]

Spinoff from this thread. Some morons seem to have the idea that the 2A protects the militia movement. That is not what the FFs had in mind -- they were trying to create a more vigorous and effectual government than the Articles of Confederation allowed for, and they knew perfectly well that a government is no government at all if it does not have a monopoly on organized armed force.

The "militia" was intended as an arm of the state, not a countervailing force against it -- that is why the Constitution authorizes the President to command the militia. The FFs, having fresh ugly memories of the redcoats, were leery of a large standing professional army, so they envisioned a militia-based national defense system -- when war came, the militia would be called up, and every man would bring his own musket from home. Hence, the 2A. But that is all it is for -- they did not even have personal defense or hunting in mind, let alone insurrection -- they would not design a self-destruct mechanism into a constitution.

And now one now doubts that a large standing professional army is indispensable. "Militia" in the 18th-Century sense -- a non-professional volunteer force, as distinct from a National Guard of part-time professional soldiers -- has played no role in any American conflict since the Spanish-American War. Clearly a well-regulated militia is not necessary to the security of a free state, and the 2A is simply . . . irrelevant and obsolete.

 

[Politruk]

The FFs feared a large army would be used as an instrument of domestic rule, as was typical in Europe.

As it turned out, the U.S. Army only has been used as an instrument of domestic rule during Reconstruction and the Civil Rights movement -- and never regrettably.

 

[Rebel5soul]

Bet ya that comes as a surprise to all those US PMC's.

 

[Politruk]

Bet ya that comes as a surprise to all those US PMC's.

The 2A does not protect their right to exist -- Congress could ban them and suppress them with perfect constitutionality.

 

[UltraChad]

Spinoff from this thread. Some morons seem to have the idea that the 2A protects the militia movement. That is not what the FFs had in mind -- they were trying to create a more vigorous and effectual government

Then why did they protect the rights of the people in the Bill of Rights, not the power of the government??

Why is it the Bill of Rights not the Bill of State Authorities???

The "militia" was intended as an arm of the state,

It quite literally is explicitly the opposite, we already went over this.

Militia =/= military. The FF's chose their words very carefully.

Clearly a well-regulated militia is not necessary to the security of a free state, and the 2A is simply . . . irrelevant and obsolete.

Then you should have no problem getting 34 states to shit can it.

Which means you only need to flip like 20 more states to have a shot, LMFAO!!!!!

Good luck!!!!

 

[UltraChad]

The 2A does not protect their right to exist -- Congress could ban them and suppress them with perfect constitutionality.

It explicitly does, no Congress can't.....It would be as on it's face as unconstitutional as a ban on "hate speech".

Without amending 2A out of existence, you and all the other gun controllers are pretty much turbo fucked.

That's why you lot have been getting absolutely gorilla pimp bitch slapped by the SCOTUS. Ya'll are losing damn near all 2A cases, you're not going to be able to ban gun shaped stickers by the end of 2025.

Mag limits and most accessory bans are just about all gone at this point, never again.
Buy permits, no more.
Assault weapons bans are on life support and things are looking HORRIBLE after a 2 year struggle game with the 9th circ. especially after justice Sotomayor admitted in another case that AR's are in common use and suppressors are safety equipment. Extra fucked

Bye bye NFA!!! ATF....time to start packing !!

 

[Politruk]

It explicitly does, no Congress can't......the SCOTUS would punt that fucker off and LOL in their faces.

Not even the present formation of the SCOTUS would reject anti-PMC legislation as against the 2A. Something like Blackwater has no constitutional right to exist. And neither does the Michigan Militia or whatever.

 

[Politruk]

It quite literally is explicitly the opposite, we already went over this.

You were wrong then and you're wrong now.

Militia =/= military. The FF's chose their words very carefully.

They knew what "militia" means and they did not intend the word to mean any force independent of the state. The militias that fought the redcoats were state forces -- or at least that was the colonists' position, that the colonies were legitimate states.

 

[UltraChad]

Not even the present formation of the SCOTUS would reject anti-PMC legislation as against the 2A. Something like Blackwater has no constitutional right to exist. And neither does the Michigan Militia or whatever.

Of corse they would, because they read what 2A actually says.
They don't just pretend it says the opposite and declare they are right because civil rights upset their fee fees, like you're trying to do.

You were wrong then and you're wrong now.

Not at all.

That's why all this shit exists, people do it and despite the best efforts of yourself and those who think as you do....you guys are further from your goals than ever. Loss after loss......ya'll ain't getting to regulate shit already, in 4 more years? LOL ya'll might not even have an ATF or NFA to lean on. When you guys do get some power back.

They knew what "militia" means and they did not intend the word to mean any force independent of the state.

Then why didn't hey use the words military and state instead of militia and the people??

The militias that fought the redcoats were state forces -- or at least that was the colonists' position, that the colonies were legitimate states.

No, militias are not militaries. Militias are by definition a civilian military force as opposed to militaries which are state run professional military forces.

And being a militia from/representing a certain state doesn't make them an apparatus of the state nor a military. Even attached to a proper state military unit, they will still be recognized as militia as has been both military tradition since at LEAST the war of the Roses (1450's England and I bet if you dug you would find much older examples) and legal precedent in the USA from the start.

 

[Saint_Ann]

The govt tried that with Ruby Ridge and that's why modern militias exist.

 

[Rebel5soul]

I can have as large a PMC as I can afford to pay.

 

[Politruk]

The govt tried that with Ruby Ridge and that's why modern militias exist.

You do understand that Randy Weaver was scum, don't you?

 

[Politruk]

There is no modern republic in which private armies are allowed to exist. How is a non-state militia any different?

 

[UltraChad]

I can have as large a PMC as I can afford to pay.

Fuckin' facts......F/A-18's and everything.

 

[UltraChad]

There is no modern republic in which private armies are allowed to exist. How is a non-state militia any different?

You literally live in one.

US's private armies are some of the most powerful and scariest fuckers on the planet....again, you super duper extra really bigly don't seem to know much about the topic. Why keep bringing it up?

 

[Saint_Ann]

You do understand that Randy Weaver was scum, don't you?

And the Sons of Liberty was a terrorist organization.

 

[Politruk]

US's private armies are some of the most powerful and scariest fuckers on the planet....

PMCs like Blackwater ain't. Non-commercial gun clubs like the Michigan Militia ain't. So what private armies are you talking about?

 

[Politruk]

And the Sons of Liberty was a terrorist organization.

Well, now that you mention it . . .

 

[Comshaw]

Then why did they protect the rights of the people in the Bill of Rights, not the power of the government??

Why is it the Bill of Rights not the Bill of State Authorities???



It quite literally is explicitly the opposite, we already went over this.

Militia =/= military. The FF's chose their words very carefully.


Then you should have no problem getting 34 states to shit can it.

Which means you only need to flip like 20 more states to have a shot, LMFAO!!!!!

Good luck!!!!

I doubt it, but let's see if you can read and reason:
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Everyone concentrates on the last half of that statement. And I agree it does mean just what it says.

HOWEVER, most also ignore the first half, in particular the first 4 words: "A well regulated Militia..."

Who did they mean to be the regulating body? Why the GOVERNMENT of course. Anyone with a half-decent grasp of how things were then knows that the militia would be trained and called to duty by the established military. They were called to duty at the request of the active military and served with and as part of that military.

Militias weren't intended nor empowered to act on their own. They were and still are a reserve part of the military. Anyone with half a brain would know that.

But then I'm sure you've never been credited with having half a brain.

Comshaw

Comshaw

 

[Politruk]

HOWEVER, most also ignore the first half, in particular the first 4 words: "A well regulated Militia..."

In 18th-Century parlance, "well regulated" means "well armed."

 

[HumpDayHoratio]

Not even the present formation of the SCOTUS would reject anti-PMC legislation as against the 2A. Something like Blackwater has no constitutional right to exist. And neither does the Michigan Militia or whatever.

Idiot. Blackwater isn’t an entity anymore…

When it was though, all the congressmen and women who went into Iraq used them as private security. Ask yourself why?

They most certainly have a “right to exist” as evidenced by the continual use of them in the “Stans”….as they’re constituted now.

You really don’t have a grip on how this world works do you?

 

[Politruk]

Idiot. Blackwater isn’t an entity anymore…

Xe, Academi, Constellis, whatever.

When it was though, all the congressmen and women who went into Iraq used them as private security. Ask yourself why?

Because it was there, in the country.

They most certainly have a “right to exist” as evidenced by the continual use of them in the “Stans”….as they’re constituted now.

That has nothing to do with the 2A. The Performance Art Collective Formerly Known as Blackwater exists because of market demand like any business -- including drug cartels, which have no legal right to exist.

 

[Comshaw]

In 18th-Century parlance, "well regulated" means "well armed."

I am sorry but I do not believe that. You could change my mind with proof, providing some citations to prove your assertion.

Comshaw

 

[Politruk]

I am sorry but I do not believe that. You could change my mind with proof, providing some citations to prove your assertion.

Comshaw

Here.

 

[UltraChad]

PMCs like Blackwater ain't.

They are. They have more people with better training and equipment than all but a handful of state militaries.