Red flags?

[Shybutexcited]

If this is the wrong place for this, I’m sorry.

So I’ve got a question about red flags with doms and the wonderful posters on lit are usually great with their outside input. I know it’s a long post but I’ve tried to explain myself fully.

For a bit of background I’m a lurker and so whilst I’ve done a lot of reading on here and other sites, I’ve never really engaged in bdsm. I’ve spoken to the odd person but never got involved because I haven’t been seeking that.

A few months ago I was approached by someone on fetlife, localish to my area, and we got chatting. They’re older than me and been a Dom for around 40 years. We chatted about normal mundane things as well as kink and we seemed to get ok. I kept saying I was nervous and I know it’s bad but I am a terrible ghoster
(I don’t mean to do it normally I’m just an awful responder). I told him this and I got a comment about not being allowed to run. A slight alarm went off but I took it as the joke I hoped it was and didn’t address it. No rules were given or tasks set, it was merely conversation about kinks and the sorts of rules such as light wardrobe control that would be expected. Shortly after I got overwhelmed with things, shut down and didn’t get in contact with them. Despite their earlier ‘threat’ they never did anything.

We have talked about meeting but haven’t because of lockdown.

I’m in a better place so recently I re-engaged contact. We fell back into where we left off. We still talked about mundane stuff but the rules came a lot quicker and were suggested on day 1. I was ok with that because we’d had communication before.
The message I got was: “rules would need to be discussed but would start with doing what you’re told without question”. In hindsight I didn’t think that through, I saw the word ‘discussion’ so whilst I didn’t go yes, I agree I didn’t argue with it.
Rules followed over the next couple of days involving light wardrobe control, orgasm and masturbation control, and asking permission for the use of the loo. I agreed to each one without question and I was and am happy to do so.

Then I got, this evening you are to go and do a specific exercise for 45mins to help with weight loss. I balked at this. We had discussed my weight the day before and I had said I was working on losing it. I didn’t ask for help or support from my Dom for this.

So, I said no. Then I got a message with the tone that I was being frustrating. I explained that I didn’t like that exercise. So then I got you will do it every evening whilst it’s light outside. There was no discussion. I said what about when social activities resume and I explained what I did pre-lockdown. I never got a response to that query but a repeat of the first exercise command. So I’m confused. Also, still don’t want to do it so I explained I wasn’t ready or prepared to hand that control over (at least not yet).

There was silence which was broken by my needing to ask permission to use the loo. I did get a response thankfully along with that he was considering his response.

Later on, all I got was that he would add punishments. I had to ask what and was told what would happen if I swore or used bad language (at no point in our exchange had I done those things). That was the only one. So I asked what other punishments, assuming there had to be more. There was but no associated infraction. So I asked. @For every other infraction that came up”.

So I wrote:
I know it might be being pedantic asking all those questions but I’ve done some thinking about this afternoon and looked back at our messages. You mentioned at the beginning that a rule was I had to obey without question. It was the first rule. In my excitement I didn’t stop to think about the consequences of that. I should have asked for clarification at that time as it would have made earlier easier for both of us. Because I didn’t think it through properly I never considered that this would extend to outside of sexual dominance or that there were technically no limits to that obedience. I know it sounds stupid and you wouldn’t do it, but technically you’d could order to me to jump off a cliff. I should have questioned and sought clarification but I didn’t which meant that we were expecting different things from each other.

It’s like always asking for permission to use the toilet. I’m happy to do it, but what if you’re not around for a while? I don’t want to end up getting a UTI. So I instinctively agreed to something that without parameters, means I could end up in a situation where I have to make a choice between obeying the rule and my health. Maybe we could agree a reasonable time limit for a response? A no would still mean no of course but at least I’d have a safety net.

I’m going to be honest with you because otherwise it’s not fair to either of us but I’m not sure I want a 24/7 D/s relationship that extends beyond the sexual and edges into the more real life aspects. At least not at the moment, and not until/if I am comfortable with that dynamic. That wasn’t what I was seeking. I have already considered myself to be sexually submissive rather than generally submissive.

I have enjoyed what we have engaged with the last couple of days and would be happy to continue and try out new things. I do however understand if you want something more from this than I can give you at present, then it might be best to part ways on this front.

(We’ve agreed a time limit for toilet training now). But it was suggested that I was being over dramatic with the cliff suggestion. Just a couple of sentences.

I went back with:

I know it’s an extreme example but I think that’s where it gets complicated for me to know what and where the limits are. So if I tacitly assume that obey you without question means that you won’t ask me to endanger myself (which I had made that assumption) there’s still a big gap between that and not wearing panties one day or keeping my vibe in my pussy all day. I am happy to accept a punishment if I mess up and don’t do as asked but I don’t want to be punished because I didn’t know where the line or limitation was so I inadvertently crossed it. For me to feel comfortable I think I need to know what the actual expectations are (beyond complete obedience) and we need to be able to discuss them. It’s why I was asking so many questions about what infraction matches what punishment.

To which I got ‘you’re overthinking’.

So I said: I possibly am, but then I disappointed you earlier unintentionally because I had misunderstood your expectations and we weren’t on the same page.

Can we please at least discuss any new rules before they are implemented?

Then I was dismissed with not tonight as I’m watching something. Night.

So here I am, still carrying out the tasks for today (there’s a vibrator in my pussy that’s supposed to be in all day) with no interest from my Dom and nothing for tomorrow.


I’m not a fan of Dom’s that try to pull the ‘I know better than you how to manage all aspects of your life’ and assume they can control it and you without you asking them to.

Am I missing something? I know I messed up in the beginning with the first rule, but am I being unreasonable? Should I be worried? I feel like this afternoon and this evening I’ve just been dismissed as too much hassle. Is this a red flag or should I just be careful? I know I’ve no experience but I thought agreed rules, expectation, and structure was an integral part of D/s?

I’m grateful for any advice. Shyxxx

 

[Shybutexcited]

So I feel I should add that I don’t object to us each having lives outside of this dynamic. I’m concerned about the way in which my needs and worries were dismissed.

 

[Ropebunny]

So I feel I should add that I don’t object to us each having lives outside of this dynamic. I’m concerned about the way in which my needs and worries were dismissed.

As you should be! It sounds like your pleasure or satisfaction is of no interest to this person. I’d chalk this one up to inexperience and walk away - are you really interested in having to teach this person to communicate with and respect you (coz I don’t think they’re going pick that up on their own at this point) If this experience isn’t doing it for you, say so and look for another! There are so many more kinky fish in the online sea

 

[Shybutexcited]

As you should be! It sounds like your pleasure or satisfaction is of no interest to this person. I’d chalk this one up to inexperience and walk away - are you really interested in having to teach this person to communicate with and respect you (coz I don’t think they’re going pick that up on their own at this point) If this experience isn’t doing it for you, say so and look for another! There are so many more kinky fish in the online sea

Thank you Ropebunny

You’re right, I’m not interested in teaching a grown man how to communicate. The thing is up until this afternoon I was happy and didn’t want to overreact so sought a knowledgable outsider’s perspective. I think I will move on and hopefully have a better experience in the future.

Shy

 

[Misshotndeep]

You were worried enough to come on here and ask total strangers. You already don't trust them. You gave yourself your answer. Best of luck to you!

 

[Shybutexcited]

You were worried enough to come on here and ask total strangers. You already don't trust them. You gave yourself your answer. Best of luck to you!

Thank you

It sounds stupid in retrospect but I just felt as if I might be making more out of the situation and that I needed several red flags before I pulled out.

 

[Goldenfinger]

Thank you

It sounds stupid in retrospect but I just felt as if I might be making more out of the situation and that I needed several red flags before I pulled out.

You have to remember that all relationships are Different. You know what your comfortable with and what your willing to do that your uncomfortable with. But if your having thoughts of red flags at this stage and you came here to ask about it. Then just like Misshotndeep said you already answered your question.

 

[SissySalina]

Really the "first rule" should be communication at all times. A good Dom knows how to listen and how to care about the submissive.
If you are not satisfied that these conditions are met then the relationship is not in your interest and you should end it. Both parties benefit from the relationship, if only one benefits then it is not a relationship.

 

[Orchidea73]

Then I was dismissed with not tonight as I’m watching something. Night.

I don't know about 24/7 D/s relationship. But that reply, right there, tells you everything you need to know about the person. Cut him off!

 

[Ropebunny]

Really the "first rule" should be communication at all times. A good Dom knows how to listen and how to care about the submissive.
If you are not satisfied that these conditions are met then the relationship is not in your interest and you should end it. Both parties benefit from the relationship, if only one benefits then it is not a relationship.

Absolutely this

 

[littlebirdjoy]

Hi shybutexcited,
thank you for trusting yourself enough to reach out. I notice that one of the other posters quipped "you didnt trust him enough to come here to talk to us" ... but that line of thinking has done me so much damage in my journey. >.>

As for your questions, they are valid and important.

So a few things here, your question is a bit ambigugous. Are you asking "were these red flags?" Yes.
Should I have drawn attention to them?
Yes.
Am I a good submissive because I need to put boundaries around my submission?
YES
Do i have the right to pull back on the reigns here and say HUH I didnt think this through as well as I should have.
Yes.
Is there something I'm missing here?
Yes. There is. You never discussed your needs. You never discussed what it is you want to submit. You never negotiated. He never set out the pararameters of what submission he wants and needs. He never established trust. He is not LEADING he is DEMANDING. ... in short.. he is not behaving like a Dominant he is behaving like an online wannabe prick. YOU did nothing wrong, because guess what, you didn't know how it should look. Even the best most experienced of us fall into that on occasion. He took advantage. But you can still pull back and maybe he can salvage himself. We shall see.

If you would like to talk more about this, please feel free to message me. My inbox is open. You have to learn you and learn what submission looks like before handing the reigns over to a demanding asshole.

*big ol hugs if you will take them!*
~Faith

 

[AnnieLit]

I am coming in a bit late, you probably figured out all of your questions by now, but just in case you have not, here is my take on this: GO SLOW. And by that I mean add ONE rule at a time, see for a week how that works, talk about it, and if you both are fine with it, add another one. Combining at the get go wardrobe control, bathroom use control, your exercise routine, probably your diet too(?), orgasms, and what not... For somebody who is not even sure she wants to deal with submission outside of play, it's a LOT.

I would not call anything you talked about so far a red flag, but this is clearly too much for you. So if I were you and if I were looking for an online only relationship, I would ask for a reset. Forget the whole set of rules, let him pick one most important to him, or the one he thinks will be easier for you to follow, or for any reason, but let him pick one and go from there.

And no, there is absolutely nothing wrong with coming here with questions. Yes, it would have been much better for you if you had a friend you could talk this over with, but you don't have a friend like that. What else could you have done? Continued turning all this in your head? Not such a good idea, without any feedback most of us tend to drive ourselves crazy with worry. Often fresh perspective helps see things that you've missed. Or, alternatively, offer reasonable and completely sane explanation for something that worried you.

In general, it is very much recommended that any sub has a friend/mentor for these things. Where to find such a person is a different story as you have to both absolutely trust them AND your style of submission has to match their. But if/when you find such a person, they will make your life so much better.

 

[DaisychainNZ]

Hi Shy,

I think it's really great that you reached out here to voice your concerns and you have some really good replies and I agreed with everything littlebirdjoysaid so I'll try not to just repeat things already said and I apologize if I do.

I see a few big red flags with this situation, you are entering into something new and the person you are doing that with is setting himself up as someone who is experienced and I imagine led you to believe that he would guide you through this with him.

But he isn't doing that.

The reasonable and recognized approach at the start would be a series of lengthy conversations, these can go on for weeks, about each persons needs. Both people ask and answer questions, there is circling back and teasing out of topics and how each person feels about this or that. It forms the major foundation of understanding of each others wants, needs and expectations and it also helps with building trust. It also brings up the question of hard limits for both people.
I never enter into anything without these discussions and hard limits being talked about.It also would have raised the topic of discipline, correction and punishment. Again leading to talk back and forth on the topic. Safe words too. Some D's have safewords.

So, to me this is a major red flag. He has skipped this incredibly essential part, which includes a ton of really vital getting to know each other aspects.

This has created a situation where you have agreed to things without proper clarity, totally not your fault. Leaving you with questions. very much deserving of answers. The examples you show of how you are approaching him with your questions and concerns are exactly what I would be doing too.

When you asked for clarity around these questions he is brushing you off.
This is where I see my next massive red flag. This getting to know you phase is normally lots of fun, it's exciting to meet someone new and get to know them.

Imagine you are approached by stranger who asks you to go into business with them, it's a product you believe in but you don't know them very well. They are older, more experienced, they say they have had many businesses in the past and each a flying success. You agree to go into business with them. The next day you start to think of a zillion questions, and you call them. You would imagine that they would be happy to clarify the details, they are experienced and they have done this before. But they brush you off, saying you are overthinking it. How would you react? If they then started to ask you to start doing tasks connected to this new business but were not willing to sit down and talk through the details, expectations, direction, goals etc... how would all that feel?

When he says that you are overthinking things, to me that is another BIG red flag, and it's abusive.
It's a gasllighting technique.
I googled it (Gaslighting is a form of psychological manipulation in which a person or a group covertly sows seeds of doubt in a targeted individual or group, making them question their own memory, perception, or judgment, often evoking in them cognitive dissonance and other changes including low self-esteem.)

It's a huge shame that you first experience has been with someone who is behaving in this way. The great news is that you knew that something was off and you reached our for support.

I am always very hesitant to tell people to run for the hills,passing you some trainers sometimes it's very hard to get the entire story down in a post and only you will know your best course of action, your gut instincts are working perfectly so I would listen to those. I have had something similar happen to me and I asked that we started back at the beginning again, but he was in such a tremendous rush that to dictate with no considerations of my needs, wants or desires. I had to walk away. It is meant to be a mutually pleasurable experience.

As for red flags, I have little red flags and big red flags when I am talking to a prospective D. If I get little red flags they are cues for me to ask more questions and clarify things. It's about teasing out what he wants and what I want to see if we are a good fit together.
If I get a big one, it would signify a safety risk for me, this could be physical or emotional and I may walk away at that point. It's not cut and dried. An example of this might be that I ask for the first meeting to be vanilla topics only. I once had a D lean into towards me on a first coffee date and pull out a nipple leash and put it on the very busy cafe table. We were in small rural village and it was really inappropriate, but he got overexcited. If he can't stick to an agreed limit during coffee, how is he going to stick to my limits if I am tied up and completely vulnerable.

I also have a thing I do where I take notice of my overall feelings, do I know what is expected of me, do I feel safe, do I feel happy and content, is he happy and content? Is he interested in me? Are questions welcomed? Am I made to feel valued?

My main objective in all of the conversations prior to becoming his are to see if I can actually make him happy and serve him to the best of my ability. Not every sub will fit with every D and my worst case scenario, aside from being put in someones freezer, would be to work tirelessly to make a D happy when we have opposing needs and wants. It would mean an unhappy D, and that would make a very unhappy me.

I know I have waffled on more that I intended to.
All the best, I am not here all that much, ( I am trying to engage more and be less of a lurker but my inbox is always open.
If you haven't drafted up a hard limits list yet, that is a good thing to do and I would be happy to private message you mine, to give you an idea of the things I have covered and how I word things- it's all very individual of course and there will be a ton of ways to approach it.

Daisy

 

[barefootgirl69]

I think one of the lessons to come away with is this:

Much of what you want from the relationship should have been discussed prior to any rules.

I prefer a Dom that asks "where would you like to focus in your growth/how can I help you grow". He made a lot of assumptions because he wasn't asking the questions.

You have a right to say no to anything. That's what safe words are for, right?

I think you're better off without him, but I also think you'll be better prepared next time.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Different people have different styles of BDSM play. Some folk see it as a negotiated thing, others as a take-it-or-leave-it proposition where the dom calls the shots, and the sub obeys. It sounds as if this guy is at the take-it-or-leave-it end of things, and you're looking for something more collaborative.

There are some red flags there. In particular, pushing somebody into any kind of weight-loss program without their agreement is a bad idea, especially after you'd said no.

But even if he was the most ethical and responsible dom in the world... it sounds like he's not the right kind of dom for you. You're not wrong for wanting a more negotiated style of relationship.

 

[AnnieLit]

Another thought on the subject, it will not help you much right now, but might help in the future: don't be afraid to ask the "why?" question. Why does he want you to do this task? Why this rule is important to him? You probably will have to explain first that the question comes not because you don't want to do it, but because you want to do it better. And it really is the reason why you need to know it.

Here is an example: suppose, the reason for his "toilet training" is to make you think about him every time your body wants to pee. I.e. he wants you to think about him not only when you talk, but at random times throughout the day too. So the real conversation looks like this:
- May I go to the bathroom? (you are on my mind)
- Yes. (I am thinking about you too.)
The part in green is not said out loud, but this is what the conversation was all about. If you knew that this was the case, you would not have to worry about what happens if he can't answer your text: if the goal is for you to think about him, then you've already accomplished it when you asked, the answer does not matter much.

There are times when there is not much space left for thinking, but I can go into complete submission mode only in person. When all comminucation comes from text, I absolutely need to know reasons behind anything that is asked of me. Sometimes it is an obvious one, sometimes I can guess, and sometimes I need to ask. With guessing there is a risk that I guess completely wrong, which sometimes leads to opposite results than what He had in mind. Example: he asked me to do something, I stressed for to two days about how to acomplish it, because it did not fit my life at all. Eventually I told him that sorry, I just can't do it now, not with the whole family at home. " It's ok, the only reason I wanted you to do it was that I wanted you to have some time for yourself" was absolutely NOT the answer I wanted to hear! Because yet again it showed that I needed to ask the "why" quesion right away. If I knew that this was supposed to be a reward, not a task, I still would not have done it, but I would not have to spend two days trying and failing either.

I know, everybody calls it communication, everybody talks about importance of it. But to me this word in itself means nothing. I know when the communication is not there, when it is not working, but usually I have no idea how to make it better. What do I need to do, what do I need to ask for to make it work? Most of the advice is so generic, so vague, that it does not help me at all.This is why I love this "ask for why" rule -- it is both universal and very specific. Had a dom that balked at it "It is not your place to question me!", as you can guess we did not get too far after that. But most do understand and don't have problems with explaining.

 

[Ginlover]

For me the major red flag is him announcing a punishment dynamic. In reality that is not nearly as common as people think it is. Funishment is not punishment. Where it does exist its agreed by all parties involved. Without consent it's called abuse. That's the line this guy has crossed HE HAS NOT GOT CONSENT let alone enthusiastic consent

You said I wasnt thinking of a 24 7 TPE in my mind I was thinking sexual domination and maybe a little around the edges.
He said I'm bringing in a punishment dynamic
You said OMG what? Why?
He said sorry I'm too busy to talk to you

That little exchange can be summarised as abuse or at best this guy has no clue what authority exchange is so is making it up based on some bad stories and porn

Stop, breathe and keep questioning, youve got this

 

[barefootgirl69]

For me the major red flag is him announcing a punishment dynamic. In reality that is not nearly as common as people think it is. Funishment is not punishment. Where it does exist its agreed by all parties involved. Without consent it's called abuse. That's the line this guy has crossed HE HAS NOT GOT CONSENT let alone enthusiastic consent

You said I wasnt thinking of a 24 7 TPE in my mind I was thinking sexual domination and maybe a little around the edges.
He said I'm bringing in a punishment dynamic
You said OMG what? Why?
He said sorry I'm too busy to talk to you

That little exchange can be summarised as abuse or at best this guy has no clue what authority exchange is so is making it up based on some bad stories and porn

Stop, breathe and keep questioning, youve got this

 

[AnnieLit]

That little exchange can be summarised as abuse or at best this guy has no clue what authority exchange is so is making it up based on some bad stories and porn

Based on my rather limited experience, I would guess either the second option, or neither. Because there is the third option that you did not mention -- theatrics. Some doms love the idea of punishments, the very sound of the word. Given that D/s is very theatrical and ritualized at it's core, it is not that surprising that some people like to imagine that they have the power to actually punish another adult. The main reason I think this might be the case here is that the only example he gave was of something that she does not do on her own as it is, no fear of punishment is needed for that.

This is one of those situations where no consent is actually needed. It is more or less as saing "If you stay under water for 30 minutes, I will <insert any hard limit here>" Well, a human can't survive 30 minutes without air, so it does not really matter what he is going to do if that happens, because that will never come to be.

I don't like the idea of punishments between consenting adults and once had a discussion with my Dom about it. I did something in a scene, he "punished" me, I ...loved the punishment so much that I had to talk to him about it. Because I wanted that to happen again, but did not feel like disobeying on purpose was the right way to get there. We never talked about punishments before, so when I explained afterwards why the idea did not exactly sit well with me, he basically asked me to shut up. Yes, he knew the difference with funishments, yes, I was right, but... he wanted to keep the illusion, so the word was there to stay. Ok, fine. As long as the practical meaning was the same, I did not care what it was called.

 

[Todger65]

I think I will move on and hopefully have a better experience in the future.

Shy

Having read through your first post and some of the replies I am fully in agreement with your statement quoted above.

I’m not into 24/7 TPE, but that’s my preference. In my book everything should be up for discussion and rules, guidance etc follow on from that. I do have some limited negotiable rules that are brought up early on in discussions and before agreement is made for a relationship to continue. They are however around safety, hers and mine, communication, confidentiality and reliability. There is a little leeway within each of them except confidentiality, but without agreement to them all, there is no relationship.

I would never even consider something that could impact of your health, physical or mental. His first rule of not being able to question his rules, to me smacks of him wanting you as a slave rather than a sub.

The main thing to take away from this and store away for the future, is not to agree to a blanket hand over of control. Things do need to be discussed and don’t fall into the thinking you need to enter into a relationship quickly in case he loses interest. If he is serious, then there is no rush

Good luck in finding someone more suited to your needs.