Romanticism and BDSM

[Guest]

Romance and D/s can be the perfect dichotomy providing an amazing tingle from combining both light and dark, with no set guidelines for when one or the other will play seperately or together. Add a sadistic Dominant and it is near perfect.

Catalina

Interesting, I don't really see a dichotomy there....
Though I would guess that not that many people like to think too hard about how well they fit together........
Hmmmmm...
The best illustration I can think of, is the large number of vampire movies..
The vampire, often (very very often), rather than being portayed as a vicious, murdering, serial killer, often cruel as a cat..Is shown frequently (and accepted) as an erotic and romantic icon.. Who just happens to be a vicious serial killer...

 

[CutieMouse]

*****

 

[jasonlf]

Marquis: Yeah, that really makes sense. I guess I've never gotten a hold of a true submissive to experience that to the fullest though.

 

[Xelebes]

Now the question is: is it uunsubly (unsubblebubbly?) or me to be Romantic?

Nope

Word

Motha

 

[catalina_francisco]

Interesting, I don't really see a dichotomy there....
Though I would guess that not that many people like to think too hard about how well they fit together........
Hmmmmm...
The best illustration I can think of, is the large number of vampire movies..
The vampire, often (very very often), rather than being portayed as a vicious, murdering, serial killer, often cruel as a cat..Is shown frequently (and accepted) as an erotic and romantic icon.. Who just happens to be a vicious serial killer...

My point exactly.....but when thinking in terms of one or the other, there is a dichotomy in the minds of those who are not as experienced or settled in the lifestyle at this point. The beauty is accepting they can be blended or one without feeling it needs to be an either/or situation.

Catalina

 

[DutchDom]

Alright, I like this thread.
I guess I could like it even more if someone could explain the "dichotomy" word for me. It’s not in my English-Dutch dictionary.

Thanks in advance.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Alright, I like this thread.
I guess I could like it even more if someone could explain the "dichotomy" word for me. It’s not in my English-Dutch dictionary.

Thanks in advance.

"Main Entry: di·chot·o·my
Pronunciation: dI-'kä-t&-mE also d&-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -mies
Etymology: Greek dichotomia, from dichotomos
1 : a division or the process of dividing into two especially mutually exclusive or contradictory groups or entities
2 : the phase of the moon or an inferior planet in which half its disk appears illuminated
3 a : BIFURCATION; especially : repeated bifurcation (as of a plant's stem) b : a system of branching in which the main axis forks repeatedly into two branches c : branching of an ancestral line into two equal diverging branches
4 : something with seemingly contradictory qualities "

IMHO it fits this thread in 1 and especially 4, especiallly for those who are at the point of looking at how the two go together or if they do. To ask means in a person's mind there is a division and/or contradiction, which I think for many of us existed at some point in our journey where we were coming to terms with what we liked and wanted....and in terms of non-consent abusive relationships is certainly IMHO not one in the same (as in violence equaling romance). Unfortunately, not many of us grow up in surroundings which support the idea that D/s type behaviour is or can be romantic, so it is a process of acknowledging that though in mainstream terms they contradict each other, in our reality they complement each other or provide a whole process that is acceptable because it is who we are.

Catalina

 

[arctic-stranger]

"Main Entry: di·chot·o·my
Pronunciation: dI-'kä-t&-mE also d&-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -mies
Etymology: Greek dichotomia, from dichotomos
1 : a division or the process of dividing into two especially mutually exclusive or contradictory groups or entities
2 : the phase of the moon or an inferior planet in which half its disk appears illuminated
3 a : BIFURCATION; especially : repeated bifurcation (as of a plant's stem) b : a system of branching in which the main axis forks repeatedly into two branches c : branching of an ancestral line into two equal diverging branches
4 : something with seemingly contradictory qualities "

IMHO it fits this thread in 1 and especially 4, especiallly for those who are at the point of looking at how the two go together or if they do. To ask means in a person's mind there is a division and/or contradiction, which I think for many of us existed at some point in our journey where we were coming to terms with what we liked and wanted....and in terms of non-consent abusive relationships is certainly IMHO not one in the same (as in violence equaling romance). Unfortunately, not many of us grow up in surroundings which support the idea that D/s type behaviour is or can be romantic, so it is a process of acknowledging that though in mainstream terms they contradict each other, in our reality they complement each other or provide a whole process that is acceptable because it is who we are.

Catalina

Actually, given the tenor of the conversation, i would say that Three best fits where people are. Romance and BDSM seem to stem from the same root, but they branch out in different directions. At least that is how i see it. With the French Girl, taking her out to dinner and a movie is different from tying her up and caressing her with my knife, but i do both for the same reason.

 

[Tuna1]

Most experienced people are probably thinking... uhhhh BDSM is romance.

I think I can answer this question well for you Jason because I do believe I understand where you're coming from. If I'm totally wrong please correct me, but what you have to realize is that, even as a Dom, BDSM is not totally about your desires.

As crazy as it may still sound to you, there are women out there who get genuine pleasure out of fulfilling your desires. They often expect to be recognized and appreciated, but the goal is to give as much if not more than you get, even if you never think of it that way.

Let's say my sub does something to upset me. I am now walking around with this sharp twinge in my brow and the stiffness of annoyance in my neck. I could probably wait it out and eventually I will get over it and we'll talk and I'll see she is sorry and it'll be all good. Or I could just put her over my knee and spank her while I remind her of the day's lesson. It makes me feel better because I get it out, and because I feel pain makes my point more accurately than ignoring her or walking around pissed off. To me, ignoring her says "I can't deal with you" and walking around pissed off says "this isn't about you". If neither is the case, why treat it differently? Besides, people say things they don't mean when they are hurt or angry, and words can be more painful than anything physical.

On the other side of the coin, my sub is relieved to take her lumps and have it over with. She'd rather deal with the physical ramifications of her mistake than be treated like I love her less over something that probably isn't that big of a deal. She feels comforted that I am not content to ignore our problems and she relishes the opportunity to surrender to my dark desire, to show me that she really is sorry and willing to deal with the repurcussions of her mistake.

Now it get's more complicated if she doesn't think she made a mistake. I think a good sub will recognize the importance of not upsetting her Dominant regardless, even if he "shouldn't" have been upset by her action. D/s is a constantly growing and changing relationship and I think the best Doms and subs are those that become the Doms and subs that their partners need, and not just generic Doms and subs with a preset guideline of what is fair or right. Even (maybe especially) the subbiest sub has the right not to be abused however, and thus it is EXTREMELY important to check yourself as a Dominant, because your sub may not do it for you. If you are anything like me, you won't want her to, even when you know you're wrong. However, she will have all the more respect for you and be all the more willing to follow you if you apologize when you realize you are wrong whether you think you can get away with it or not. If you want to be the one handling the relationship, you better handle it.

I think most subs will give their men some leeway to be themselves. A lot of men unfamiliar with the ways of the sub will use this freedom to abuse the subs' kindness and many others will never accept the gift the sub is offering. Use that leeway properly however, and she will give you her universe. Use that leeway to build her trust, slowly, to make her realize that she can be your slut and she will still be your love, that she can be your slave and still be your princess.

She will let you tear her down if she knows you will put her back together. All most subs want is to please you as best as they possibly can anyway. Show them you won't take it for granted, and they just might.

Marquis...Being new myself, this hit the spot!

 

[Xelebes]

Alright, I like this thread.
I guess I could like it even more if someone could explain the "dichotomy" word for me. It’s not in my English-Dutch dictionary.

Thanks in advance.

a split, a diversion between two things which come come from the same root. (Pretty much AS and CF's response except compressed and put into fewer words for ease of reading.)

 

[DutchDom]

The complementing contradiction

"Main Entry: di·chot·o·my
Pronunciation: dI-'kä-t&-mE also d&-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -mies
Etymology: Greek dichotomia, from dichotomos
1 : a division or the process of dividing into two especially mutually exclusive or contradictory groups or entities
2 : the phase of the moon or an inferior planet in which half its disk appears illuminated
3 a : BIFURCATION; especially : repeated bifurcation (as of a plant's stem) b : a system of branching in which the main axis forks repeatedly into two branches c : branching of an ancestral line into two equal diverging branches
4 : something with seemingly contradictory qualities "

IMHO it fits this thread in 1 and especially 4, especiallly for those who are at the point of looking at how the two go together or if they do. To ask means in a person's mind there is a division and/or contradiction, which I think for many of us existed at some point in our journey where we were coming to terms with what we liked and wanted....and in terms of non-consent abusive relationships is certainly IMHO not one in the same (as in violence equaling romance). Unfortunately, not many of us grow up in surroundings which support the idea that D/s type behaviour is or can be romantic, so it is a process of acknowledging that though in mainstream terms they contradict each other, in our reality they complement each other or provide a whole process that is acceptable because it is who we are.

Catalina,

Thanks for explaining and for being so thorough in doing so. I got a real kick out of it. They say knowledge is power and so….. (Well I think you get the idea ). The “IMHO’s” are (IMHO) totally unnecessary since I think you’re right on the button on both counts.
I’ll be honest and say that it took me a while to let the whole thing “sink in” though. (Or shall I say, “take root” since that fits better in the whole tenor of the conversation, because it fits the 3rd explanation of the word). Nr. 4 was the most obvious to me and seemed to fit best in the whole context. Secondly Nr. 1 because of the “process of dividing” which is the opposite of “process of joining”. And the lather is what questioning if “romanticism and BDSM” go together has done for me. When we grow up we learn/are taught that hurting other people is a bad thing. Therefore the thought of seeing romance/love and BDSM as opposites is not a total surprise. Nor is it surprising to me that finding the origin of the two (where they stem from) is a process since learning takes time.

Actually, given the tenor of the conversation, i would say that Three best fits where people are. Romance and BDSM seem to stem from the same root, but they branch out in different directions. At least that is how i see it. With the French Girl, taking her out to dinner and a movie is different from tying her up and caressing her with my knife, but i do both for the same reason.

arctic-stranger,

When I first read your post I stared worrying if you meant me with your addition to this thread. This, because your post referred to Catalina’s answer on my question. Personally I like to think that I have past the point of “seeing romance/love and BDSM as opposites” instead of “branches springing from the same root” or “parts of a whole”. But on the other hand, if I’m being more honest with myself, this whole concept started dawning on me just a few years ago and is still in the process of “taking root” within myself. I do however think I’ve come a long way since then. So to some degree your observation on the tenor of this conversation and how this fits description Nr. 3 bares truth for me. To what extent this is true for the other posters in this thread however is something they will have to answer for themselves. I also liked the contrast in your “taking her out to diner and a movie” and “caressing her with my knife” comment by the way. And overall, your post shed some light from a different angle on the whole subject for me. So, thanks to you as well.



If one does not understand a word it can often help to read/hear it in a sentence. Same goes for the equation with sentences and stories, and (I know this is somewhat of a stretch) stories and life/self? All this pondering on the meaning of the word, and on myself, led me to explanation Nr. 2: “the phase of the moon or an inferior planet in which half its disk appears illuminated”. For ease of reading ( to Xelebes), I’ll stick to the “phase of the moon” part. Explanation Nr. 2 for me, provides an insight on the origin, and a solution to the “seeing romance/love and BDSM as hard to combine” issue.

Let’s have some fun with this. We only see that portion of the moon which reflects the light from the sun back to us. So what we see depends on, where we, and the moon are in comparison to the sun, and on the shape of the moon. If we can get another light source (like a second sun) to illuminate the side of the moon that we can’t see, than we can see the whole part of the moon that is faced toward us. (This is why I used the “shed some light from a different angle” phrase earlier). Or we could simply wait until there is a “full” moon. In either case, we still aren’t able to see the side of the moon that is faced away from us and the sun (the dark side of the moon). (lol… What the f#ck does this have to do with the whole issue… Bare with me. I know I’m weird).

Now let’s go really schizophrenic and think of ourselves as being the moon.
Since I was brought up to believe that hurting others was bad, and had a need to be validated (thought of) as good, my focus was on trying to be good. So I grew up trying to be good, and not hurt others. This started to way so heavily on me that I started to feel like I could not move an inch without doing something wrong. Hence, all the light that was shed on me (or that I was capable of reflecting) originated from a place where hurting someone was a bad thing. Then, just a couple of years ago, I discovered this funny thing called BDSM. This shed light from a totally different angle on my “it’s wrong to hurt someone” issue. It made me see that it’s not always wrong to “feel like inflicting some pain”. Reed: “My desire to smack bottoms, pinch nipples and butt-cheeks, or control the other person, did not come from a loveless evil place”. It merely came from a part of me, that was not validated by the way I was raised, and not validated by society’s standards in general. So for me, therein lays the origin of the “seeing romanticism/love and BDSM as hard to combine” issue.

On to the solution part now.
The moon doesn’t care about how much we see of it. It does not have a need to be validated. It’s just there, whether we see it’s “dark side” or not. Humans however, have feelings. They (we) do seem to care (some more than others) about what others think them, and how they think about (see) themselves. I personally think it’s not the most important thing how others see me. It’s more important how I see myself, but I don’t have the arrogance to say that it’s not important to me how others see me. So what do I do? I expose my dark side. Put it out there for others to see, and reflect upon. This is what I think all of us do here, on the discussion board. We show parts of ourselves. Allow others to reflect on it. Sometimes this gives us more insight on ourselves, and if not, then we simply discard the comment as “not valid to me”. Each and every poster on this board becomes a different light source, and sometimes gives us an insight to what we’ve been missing. Like the way we need a mirror to see the smudge on our forehead. (Okay, I stole this last line from a post by Marquis that I read somewhere ). It also does something else though. It allows us to be that light source for others. However reluctant I am about claiming to be that, I still have the idle hope that I can be just that for some of you. Even if it would only be just one.

So thanks to all.
DutchDom out… (for now).

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Romance is an acknowledgment of the mystery of love.

BDSM (for me), is a celebration of the mystery of desire.

I just don't see the conflict.

 

[arctic-stranger]

A) We dont learn shit about romance from movies or novels.
B) Romance is to love what fire is to a steak. You can eat raw meat, but it is much better cooked.
C) BDSM is not an easily defined entity. Nor is love for that matter.
D) There are exceptions to everything i have said in this post. Except this.

 

[bg23]

Romance is an acknowledgment of the mystery of love.

BDSM (for me), is a celebration of the mystery of desire.

I just don't see the conflict.

ever so eloquent, as always.

you said that better than i ever could.

 

[h_i_s]

It's not undomly at all to be romantic. Before being collared by my Master, when i was actively searching for Him, at times i wasn't even certain of exactly which traits i needed most in the Man i was searching for. Even so, romance was always one thing that i held as one of the higher priorities in my search for a Dom. i never could have imagined what a natural the Master who i am collared to now would be in sating this need.

Romance is important for many reasons. It just one tool of many which demonstrates to me that i am loved, adored, & cherished. Many times a romantic gesture demonstrates a thoughtful act, it says 'Hey, at some time in my day i thought of you, and what you mean to me and made a conscious & creative effort to share it'.

The first thing many people think of as examples of romance are flowers, love letters, chocolates, candies, candles. Some confuse romance with sex. Most anyone can give or get any of that, but it's the thought behind it all that counts. Some think that all that is needed is love to maintain growth, & success, and contentment in a relationship.

Romance can be expressed in many ways, and in the end, when the flowers have wilted, the love letters tattered and no longer legible after i've read them over and over, and the candy has been eaten ... it's the thought which will remain. Sometimes romance says, "i still love you as much today as the first day we met". Sometimes it says, "It's not your birthday, not our anniversary, not even Valentine's Day ... it's just any day of the week that i have chosen to celebrate you and I". Sometimes it says to me, "I didn't have to do this, you made me WANT to.".

An act of romance for some might include just the type of Dom who is not above claiming His submissives heart, mind and soul as well as Her body. A PYL who is capable of making their pyl writhe and wince as They spank his/her ass black and blue and torture him/her for hours on end until he/she beg me to stop... And that same PYL who will turn his/her legs to mush, and melt her/his heart as He/She whisper professions of love in their pyl's ear, until she/he begs for MORE ... that's the PYL for me.

my Master is as romantic as They come, i didn't chose to submit to Him initially ... He made me WANT to.

For me, i NEED the romance, too.

 

[ohiobob37]

bdsm romance ohio usa

its very romantic if done right













.

 

[curiousjen]

ohio bob

Please like it has been pointed out to you, take it to the BDSM personals area. It is getting very tiresome reading the same lame post again and again.

thanks.

 

[SueJ]

Sinnocent, I love the way you express yourself and the love you and your Master share. I always end up feeling like I just need to ditto everything you say! Thanks for being here.

Sue

 

[Guest]

My point exactly.....but when thinking in terms of one or the other, there is a dichotomy in the minds of those who are not as experienced or settled in the lifestyle at this point. The beauty is accepting they can be blended or one without feeling it needs to be an either/or situation.

Catalina

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm..........

Would you accept rather, that we don't feel the need to impose a desired difference where none truly exists????
That part and parcel of our "lifestyle" ( *sigh* I am starting to HATE that word) is the lack of need, or desire, for that particular mental filter...

 

[Guest]

A) We dont learn shit about romance from movies or novels.
B) Romance is to love what fire is to a steak. You can eat raw meat, but it is much better cooked.
C) BDSM is not an easily defined entity. Nor is love for that matter.
D) There are exceptions to everything i have said in this post. Except this.

Hmm

I would argue your point "B", even as a general case statement..
Safer, yes...Better, no...

 

[TaintedB]

A) We dont learn shit about romance from movies or novels.
B) Romance is to love what fire is to a steak. You can eat raw meat, but it is much better cooked.
C) BDSM is not an easily defined entity. Nor is love for that matter.
D) There are exceptions to everything i have said in this post. Except this.

Hmmm too!

A. I didn't learn anything new about love from Dickens but he certainly repeatedly confirmed everything I already knew. As far as romance goes, I think most people learn almost everything they know about it from books, movies, and other media. (We also pick up a little bit from those around us.) This explains why so many of us have been disappointed in real relationships: they never manage to measure up to the fictionalized versions that such media lyingly tell us are the norm.
B. I see romance as more akin to the shiny skin of an onion, with love as the delicious vegetable inside. You can eat the skin, but it's rough, papery, and has little nutritional value. It might also give you digestion problems. It has an important purpose, though. It preserves the relationship until such time time as both are ready to consume the real food in the center.
C. True, but unnecesary to state because of its obviousness.
D. Ditto.

 

[madetobeme]

necessary "evils"

The vampire, often (very very often), rather than being portayed as a vicious, murdering, serial killer, often cruel as a cat..Is shown frequently (and accepted) as an erotic and romantic icon.. Who just happens to be a vicious serial killer...

Sorry to be quoting this from so far back in the thread but I totally agree.
Those "classic" romantic stories like Dracula, Beauty and the Beast and The Phantom of the Opera all involve a divine combination of cruelty and romance.
Without the romance there is no empathy for the characters and it becomes difficult for the audience to lose themselves in the story.

As cruelty, dominance and control are necessary, so too are kindness, romance, kindness and freedom- all in carefully metered doses.

madetobeme

 

[DutchDom]

Has anyone ever tied a pyl’s leg and arm in such a way that pyl’s heel is touching pyl’s butt, one arm on pyl’s back, and than made pyl clean the kitchen? Believe me… It’s not a pretty sight. (Although… )


I discovered BDSM about 3½ years ago. That felt like having my arm and leg untied after 30 years. Now let’s call the unbound leg “love/romance” and the one that’s been bound for 30 years “sex/BDSM”.


Anyways, I was just happy to find out the meaning of the word “dichotomy” and wanted to play a little with it. It’s the kind of stuff that strengthens a leg that’s been out of commission for 30 years.


I think I’m going to do some digging in the “mental health issues and BDSM” thread now.

 

[arctic-stranger]

Sorry to be quoting this from so far back in the thread but I totally agree.
Those "classic" romantic stories like Dracula, Beauty and the Beast and The Phantom of the Opera all involve a divine combination of cruelty and romance.
Without the romance there is no empathy for the characters and it becomes difficult for the audience to lose themselves in the story.

As cruelty, dominance and control are necessary, so too are kindness, romance, kindness and freedom- all in carefully metered doses.

madetobeme

You dont have to go to the horror genre to find that either. Rhett Butler was not exactly a gentleman's gentleman (and nor was Scarlet). Oh, and dont forget Kate and Petruchio.

 

[YinandYang]

You dont have to go to the horror genre to find that either. Rhett Butler was not exactly a gentleman's gentleman (and nor was Scarlet). Oh, and dont forget Kate and Petruchio.

I agree, look at Cathy and Heathcliffe, a romance so full of Mind Games...and so painful they didnt need a whip!