What is it called when a "fantasy" story has no non-human or para-normal aspects?

[AG31]

In other words, if a story is set in an unnamed place and time that feels a lot like the Roman Empire mixed in with medieval times, but is otherwise completely recognizably human and this-world, is it still called Fantasy?

@StillStunned, maybe it's just called "Swords?" You, know. What's it called if there's no "Sorcery?" Is that your personal terminology, or is "Swords and Sorcery" a thing?

Edit: Mildly related trivia... How come such stories work in a swords-only setting? They don't work if there are guns in some imaginary world.

 

[StillStunned]

I'd probably call it "alternative history", or perhaps "sword & sandals" depending on how strong the classical Roman Empire elements are. (Also, remember that what we call the Byzantine Empire referred to itself as the Roman Empire, and the Roman traditions continued well into the Middle Ages before evolving.)

"Sword & sorcery" is an existing concept, although no-one agrees on the definition. The way I've always understood it (from growing up in the 1980s), it refers to grimmer, or perhaps "lower", fantasy than the epic or heroic fantasy that was really the only alternative back then. Heroes concerned more with their personal lives than saving the world. Sorcery is mostly selfish and always comes with a price, unlike the kinds of fantasy where wizards are slinging fireballs and light spells at a whim. It came from the pulp tradition rather than novel tradition.

But nowadays it seems the definition has broadened to include most traditional fantasy, perhaps to distinguish it from urban fantasy and romantasy and so on. And what I call S&S now is generally categorised as "grimdark".

 

[onehitwanda]

Historical Fiction is a recognised genre.

 

[YmaOHyd]

In other words, if a story is set in an unnamed place and time that feels a lot like the Roman Empire mixed in with medieval times, but is otherwise completely recognizably human and this-world, is it still called Fantasy?

@StillStunned, maybe it's just called "Swords?" You, know. What's it called if there's no "Sorcery?" Is that your personal terminology, or is "Swords and Sorcery" a thing?

Edit: Mildly related trivia... How come such stories work in a swords-only setting? They don't work if there are guns in some imaginary world.

Jacqueline Carey's Kushiel's Dart and sequels are pretty reliably described as fantasy or, occasionally, as romantasy. The world they're set in is our map -- like, literally the map of the world -- filled with nicely drawn pastiche civilizations; the British Isles are filled with Celtic, Brythonic and Pictish tribes; Italy combines the Italian city-states of the 1200s with a declining Western Roman Empire; the shores of North Africa are dominated by an Alexandrian Egypt and a Carthage in the fullest flush of its power; pre-literate German tribes launch raids across the Rhenus against the France of the High Middle Ages. It does have functional mythology -- divinity is real and gods possess power in their sacred places -- and very very occasional magic, usually of the sort tied to prophecy or the invocation of divine blessing or curse. Occasionally I describe it to people as low fantasy or restrained fantasy (which is ironic, given the subject matter of Kushiel's Dart), contrasted with high fantasy, which includes fantastical creatures, nonhuman characters making frequent appearances in a variety of primary and supporting roles, and regular magic as a fact of life. If a hot elf has a magic sword, it's probably high fantasy. It's not historical fiction or alt-history because there's no historical basis or point of divergence. It's simply a fantasy world that looks a lot like our own. And that might be a question for you: does it feel like the Roman Empire? Or is it the Roman Empire? If it's the latter, then maybe it's alt-history. If it's the former, I'd probably stick with just fantasy.

Sword-and-sandal to me is tied pretty strongly to mythological/history-plus-divinity Greek and Roman stories, usually with a clear villain and hero. Trojan War films often fall into this category, especially when they include explicit mythological references or insertion. The Christian-conversion Bible epics from the 1950s fit here too -- films like Quo Vadis or The Robe. Sword-and-sorcery is how I'd describe stories set in settings that generally do not include nonhuman protagonists (though they may have nonhuman sentients present); have frequent use of magic; and focus generally on action and aventure. Conan, obviously, is the archtypical sword-and-sorcery hero.

(As an aside, I think those stories work fine in worlds with guns. They just need to draw from a different source of inspiration. American West pastiches and neo-westerns are just fine.)

 

[RejectReality]

If it purposely creates a world that has never existed, it's some form of fantasy. The paranormal is not required.

Guns could work in the right setting. Basically any time before firearms were created. Artificers in Ancient Egypt, for example. There are people who believe they were using electricity, and using some kind of sound-based levitation to build the pyramids. LOL

Drop a bronze age civilization in Neanderthal times, and you have yourself a fantasy.

 

[AG31]

Historical Fiction is a recognised genre.

But doesn't it imply a real place in a real time?

 

[AG31]

If it purposely creates a world that has never existed, it's some form of fantasy.

Thanks! This makes lots of sense. And if I don't see a good reason to avoid it, I'll use "fantasy" when thinking about this stuff. Maybe even when communicating about it.

 

[KittyOfSteele]

You might be interested into going the rabbit holes of what Speculative Fiction and Mimetic Fiction is. The biggest difference is that Mimetic Fiction is true-to-life, while Speculative Fiction bends the reality. Fantasy and sci-fi are part of the whole umbrella that is Speculative Fiction. You don't need magical elements to make fantasy though. That's called a low-magic fantasy world, or a non-magic fantasy world.

 

[AG31]

You might be interested into going the rabbit holes of what Speculative Fiction and Mimetic Fiction is. The biggest difference is that Mimetic Fiction is true-to-life, while Speculative Fiction bends the reality. Fantasy and sci-fi are part of the whole umbrella that is Speculative Fiction. You don't need magical elements to make fantasy though. That's called a low-magic fantasy world, or a non-magic fantasy world.

Thanks very much!! Very clarifying, although I think I'll content myself with just seeing those dark little openings almost hidden in the grass instead of actually plunging into the holes!

Where did you learn about this stuff? Are you a professional author who went to the Iowa workshop or something?

 

[TheWritingGroup]

["Historical fiction"] But doesn't it imply a real place in a real time?

Yes.

-Annie

 

[KittyOfSteele]

Thanks very much!! Very clarifying, although I think I'll content myself with just seeing those dark little openings almost hidden in the grass instead of actually plunging into the holes!

Where did you learn about this stuff? Are you a professional author who went to the Iowa workshop or something?

Almost. When I was 15 years old I actually had a teacher who was somewhat of a local celebrity, and he is just six years older than me. At 21, he was already a published author, and I asked him about it, so he became my mentor and started to show me the ropes. I even managed to attend to some of his courses on the craft as his fame grew. We're not as much in touch as before, but he is quite famous nowdays, writing for different blogs, and still releasing books, while I'm here struggling to have one book published. So "professional" is a bit of an adjective that depends on what your definition of it is. I like to call myself a "transgressive erotica author" because that's what I do: I like to push the boundaries of everything, and even break them sometimes. Professional though? My definition of it is different, but all of this is a different subject.

The ADHD curiosity and the Internet also helped. Both things are really good if you use them instead of them using you.

I do have the first two books of my mentor; both signed. One of them is a handmade collector's edition, signed to one of the many heteronyms I used to go by when I started writing.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Where did you learn about this stuff? Are you a professional author who went to the Iowa workshop or something?

You pick it up from reading a lot.

I actually heard about the Iowa Writers' Workshop for the first time here on Lit, when someone left a comment to a story of mine, wondering whether I was a graduate of somesuch.

The comment was faintly dismissive. I thought the commenter was a smug prick, because the chapter in question was mostly autobiographical (well, the sex scene was), so what would they know?

The same commenter introduced me to Francis Ponge, so maybe he wasn't such a prick after all.

 

[AG31]

The same commenter introduced me to Francis Ponge,

Had to Google him. I'm not a big poetry person, but he sounds like the kind I'd like. Will investigate.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Had to Google him. I'm not a big poetry person, but he sounds like the kind I'd like. Will investigate.

Yep, that's what I had to do. I'd never heard of him, either.

I think some of my stories fit in with his ideas, everyday events described in detail.

 

[AlexBailey]

Could it be a Bronze Age Bromance? Or is that a little too far back?

 

[karina_jayde]

If it is still 'our world' and with no fantastical elements, and is an alternative take/depiction of a particular time in history, I'd categorize that as alternate history. But most of the time, that label is used for works exploring specific 'what ifs' like 'what if the Roman Empire never fell' or 'what if the Chinese colonized America first.'

But depending on how divergent it is, might be simpler to consider it fantasy. Someone else pointed out the Kushiel series which is usually labeled as fantasy due to how divergent its world is from ours.

If you're asking specifically regarding Lit categories, I'd probably label that as fantasy unless there's a predominant specific kink taking center stage

 

[grey228]

The scifi / fantasy genre is a hit or miss for me. Personally, I think they should macro all the furry/anthro into furry or furdom as a genre.

 

[StillStunned]

Edit: Mildly related trivia... How come such stories work in a swords-only setting? They don't work if there are guns in some imaginary world.

I missed this when I posted my first reply.

The truth is that there's more and more guns & sorcery out there. From what I remember, Stephen King's "Dark Tower" would qualify (I only ever read the first few books, and that was decades ago).

There's also Weird West fiction. I have an anthology on my Kobo called "Gunsmoke & Dragonfire", for instance.

Saladin Ahmed has a wonderful short piece called "Mister Hadj's Sunset Ride", for instance (his other works are also worth checking out, although he's joined the list of "finish the damn story!" authors for not completing "Throne of the Crescent Moon").

Lavie Tidhar has a series of stories about Gorel of Goliris, "gunslinger and addict", with one even being included in an anthology edited by Gardner Dozois called "The Book of Swords". Despite being about guns and not swords, it's very much in the sword & sorcery tradition.

There's some very imaginative writing in the genre, and I'm surprised that it's not more popular.

 

[StillStunned]

The scifi / fantasy genre is a hit or miss for me. Personally, I think they should macro all the furry/anthro into furry or furdom as a genre.

I gripe a lot about the lack of views and appreciation in SF&F. But the truth is that there are loads and loads of stories being published every day, and plenty of them get loads of readers. The problem is most likely that the fantasy that I write, and that I enjoy, isn't what's most popular with the younger generation.

 

[grey228]

I gripe a lot about the lack of views and appreciation in SF&F. But the truth is that there are loads and loads of stories being published every day, and plenty of them get loads of readers. The problem is most likely that the fantasy that I write, and that I enjoy, isn't what's most popular with the younger generation.

I'm surprised the younger generation is sufficiently literate to keep this site relevant.

It'll be A.I. soon. All of it. I mean everyone thought Gamefaqs would last forever, but apparently video form content dominates the written word now.

Hilarious.

 

[StillStunned]

I'm surprised the younger generation is sufficiently literate to keep this site relevant.

It'll be A.I. soon. All of it. I mean everyone thought Gamefaqs would last forever, but apparently video form content dominates the written word now.

Hilarious.

I get the impression that reading is quite popular among the younger generation. Starting with the Harry Potter phenomenon, and all the way up to BookTok nowadays.

It's just that styles have evolved, and tastes in genres. If I click on a random story in SF&F I don't expect to admire the way it's written or enjoy the content anymore. But those stories still get high views and ratings. So presumably that readership feels the same way about my stories. I like to think mine are "better", but if the readers don't agree then I'm not measuring quality by the same metric as they are.

 

[FidelityBoss]

In other words, if a story is set in an unnamed place and time that feels a lot like the Roman Empire mixed in with medieval times, but is otherwise completely recognizably human and this-world, is it still called Fantasy?

@StillStunned, maybe it's just called "Swords?" You, know. What's it called if there's no "Sorcery?" Is that your personal terminology, or is "Swords and Sorcery" a thing?

Edit: Mildly related trivia... How come such stories work in a swords-only setting? They don't work if there are guns in some imaginary world.

If it’s set in a fictional world that feels like a mix of Roman Empire and medieval times but has no magic or fantastical elements, it’s more Historical Fiction or Sword-and-Sandal (if it’s Roman-esque). “Swords and Sorcery” is a specific subgenre of Fantasy that *requires* magic or supernatural elements. Without sorcery, it’s just “Swords” I think gritty, low-tech adventures. As for why guns change the vibe, they shift the power dynamics and tone, making it feel more modern or steampunk rather than ancient or medieval.

 

[VerbalAbuse]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasy

Fantasy is a genre of speculative fiction which involves themes of the supernatural, magic, and imaginary worlds and creatures.

 

[MrHereWriting]

In other words, if a story is set in an unnamed place and time that feels a lot like the Roman Empire mixed in with medieval times, but is otherwise completely recognizably human and this-world, is it still called Fantasy?

@StillStunned, maybe it's just called "Swords?" You, know. What's it called if there's no "Sorcery?" Is that your personal terminology, or is "Swords and Sorcery" a thing?

Edit: Mildly related trivia... How come such stories work in a swords-only setting? They don't work if there are guns in some imaginary world.

It's called fantasy fiction, let the people with OCD figure out the subgenre.

 

[grey228]

I get the impression that reading is quite popular among the younger generation. Starting with the Harry Potter phenomenon, and all the way up to BookTok nowadays.

Harry Potter is for Millennials and maybe the pipsqueak GenZs who just graduated college. I never cared for it, personally.

WTF is BookTok?