When a reader is eventually proved right.

[lovecraft68]

12 years ago I published a story in I/T. The story revolved around a Christmas Tradition that when the son turns 18 the mother sleeps with him and 'makes him a man." The story is told from the POV of the brother who turned 18 in the summer and Christmas is around the corner. He has two older brothers who eventually tell him what's going to happen, and yap about how amazing it was.

Right...seems normal....for Lit.

The story did okay, I think 4.6+ most comments were decent, but one reader sent me feedback just annihilating the story. Hated it, thought it bordered on Non con (exaggeration but I'll circle back on it) the brothers were assholes, the mother this and that, the kid was a victim and the tradition cruel. He went full troll, swearing, saying a few not so flattering things about my mental state etc...

But, he left an e-mail to reply to. I replied and kept it calm, said its too bad he didn't like it, but thanks for the feedback, and I explained I didn't see it the way he did, and not every story is for everyone, and thanks for the opinion. Evena bad reaction is a reaction. He e-mails back and apologizes for raving like a lunatic, gives a much more rational explanation for why he didn't like it, then asks permission to write his version of how it should have ended. I said, sure go for it. We became good friends and even spoke on the phone a few times to discuss writing, but all the rest of his work is in NH and he's done well there.

Now flash forward to last weekend. I'm fixing covers and formatting on my old e-books so there's no trouble when they swap from Smashwords to D2D. Most of my first books were published here first, and this story is one of them. While fixing some of the formatting (way to blocky paragraphs that needed to be broken up) I read through a little bit and the more I read, the more I shake my head. At one point "Seriously, what was I thinking with this?" entered my mind. Like, shit, that guy was right for thinking what he did. This is where I will still say it was not NC, but there are more dub con elements than I realized, and yeah the brothers were assholes and the mom-even though as a mom son story you know what has to happen in it-could have been portrayed a lot more like a person and not "Yeah, this is what we do, okay?" Towards the end I think I may have subconsciously felt this and I pushed the positive emotional gain a little better, but overall?

This story sucked, the premise was just...wrong, and why did I think at the time this was a good idea?

Another example is something never published here, a story where a mother has sex with her daughter's ex-boyfriend. I'm sure people saw this as mostly a hot milf story scenario, but for some reason, the morality of it-and I know this is fantasy and we can check our morality at the door. 'it's porn, but don't do this at home' deal. I did as this thing progressed have the mother justify what she did-she finds out from the daughter after the break up the two hadn't had sex so she's not getting her daughter's sloppy seconds, but the mother knew the boy looked and would play it up with the way she dressed and a bit of flirting which upset the daughter.

So again, when I took a quick look through I'm like. "Wow, this is just so fucking sleazy, the mother egged the guy on, then fucked his brains out days after he broke her daughter's heart.

Again, morals don't have to apply in fantasy-example some people love cheating stories, I'm fine with them as a kink, but low opinion of those who do it for real-but I think we all still have a personal compass of what we can and will comfortably write and what we think, "No, hard pass, don't like it."

In both of these examples I don't know where my mindset was at the time, but in the here and now? I would not have written either of these. Not saying they break any rules, or they're even awful as far as the writing or even premise goes for other people, but just for me I see them as regrettable to some extent.

I wonder why? Is it both are over a decade old and regardless of your age as you get older your mind and beliefs evolve-or devolve for some- Maybe you're less experimental and wonder why you felt the need back then to 'go there?" Is it-and this is the case for my first example-did I miss chances to make it much better?

All of the above? None of the above?

Do you have stories like this? or am I just turning into a grumpy old man with some of my older work?

 

[Five_Inch_Heels]

Outlooks and opinions change over time.

Personally, I don't care for parents and kids doing things. I prefer something like Aunt Nancy to take the lead and teach and encourage the new adult.

But in your case, I think the Mother would have to be more Motherly than demanding. The brothers could make it sound fun and exciting.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

12 years ago I published a story in I/T. The story revolved around a Christmas Tradition that when the son turns 18 the mother sleeps with him and 'makes him a man." The story is told from the POV of the brother who turned 18 in the summer and Christmas is around the corner. He has two older brothers who eventually tell him what's going to happen, and yap about how amazing it was.

Right...seems normal....for Lit.

The story did okay, I think 4.6+ most comments were decent, but one reader sent me feedback just annihilating the story. Hated it, thought it bordered on Non con (exaggeration but I'll circle back on it) the brothers were assholes, the mother this and that, the kid was a victim and the tradition cruel. He went full troll, swearing, saying a few not so flattering things about my mental state etc...

But, he left an e-mail to reply to. I replied and kept it calm, said its too bad he didn't like it, but thanks for the feedback, and I explained I didn't see it the way he did, and not every story is for everyone, and thanks for the opinion. Evena bad reaction is a reaction. He e-mails back and apologizes for raving like a lunatic, gives a much more rational explanation for why he didn't like it, then asks permission to write his version of how it should have ended. I said, sure go for it. We became good friends and even spoke on the phone a few times to discuss writing, but all the rest of his work is in NH and he's done well there.

Now flash forward to last weekend. I'm fixing covers and formatting on my old e-books so there's no trouble when they swap from Smashwords to D2D. Most of my first books were published here first, and this story is one of them. While fixing some of the formatting (way to blocky paragraphs that needed to be broken up) I read through a little bit and the more I read, the more I shake my head. At one point "Seriously, what was I thinking with this?" entered my mind. Like, shit, that guy was right for thinking what he did. This is where I will still say it was not NC, but there are more dub con elements than I realized, and yeah the brothers were assholes and the mom-even though as a mom son story you know what has to happen in it-could have been portrayed a lot more like a person and not "Yeah, this is what we do, okay?" Towards the end I think I may have subconsciously felt this and I pushed the positive emotional gain a little better, but overall?

This story sucked, the premise was just...wrong, and why did I think at the time this was a good idea?

Another example is something never published here, a story where a mother has sex with her daughter's ex-boyfriend. I'm sure people saw this as mostly a hot milf story scenario, but for some reason, the morality of it-and I know this is fantasy and we can check our morality at the door. 'it's porn, but don't do this at home' deal. I did as this thing progressed have the mother justify what she did-she finds out from the daughter after the break up the two hadn't had sex so she's not getting her daughter's sloppy seconds, but the mother knew the boy looked and would play it up with the way she dressed and a bit of flirting which upset the daughter.

So again, when I took a quick look through I'm like. "Wow, this is just so fucking sleazy, the mother egged the guy on, then fucked his brains out days after he broke her daughter's heart.

Again, morals don't have to apply in fantasy-example some people love cheating stories, I'm fine with them as a kink, but low opinion of those who do it for real-but I think we all still have a personal compass of what we can and will comfortably write and what we think, "No, hard pass, don't like it."

In both of these examples I don't know where my mindset was at the time, but in the here and now? I would not have written either of these. Not saying they break any rules, or they're even awful as far as the writing or even premise goes for other people, but just for me I see them as regrettable to some extent.

I wonder why? Is it both are over a decade old and regardless of your age as you get older your mind and beliefs evolve-or devolve for some- Maybe you're less experimental and wonder why you felt the need back then to 'go there?" Is it-and this is the case for my first example-did I miss chances to make it much better?

All of the above? None of the above?

Do you have stories like this? or am I just turning into a grumpy old man with some of my older work?

I'd say it's a case of your writing and your taste evolving. Even though my own writing history is incomparable in length and scope to yours, I can easily remember how my first stories were influenced much more by my erotic fantasies and what turns me on rather than some other criteria.
It's probably that the NC element used to be much more of a turn-on thing for you than it is now and you inserted it much more than you thought you did.

 

[Plathfan]

This has nothing to do with a moral compass--you’ve just softened with age. That story wouldn’t have taken off if it weren’t a fucked-up family to begin with. Good people doing bad things is the cradle of every conflict. Bad people doing bad things? You don’t need fiction for that; just read the news.

The brothers come off as a bit superficial, but sometimes stereotypical supporting characters, whether good or bad, move the plot forward, and we shouldn’t feel guilty about using these literary shortcuts.

It seems simple in theory, but pulling just one thematic card can often bring the whole house down.

I think what’s bothering you isn’t the content; it’s that you’d approach those old stories very differently today.

 

[Five_Inch_Heels]

I just don't do mean, even in 'bad' families.

I'm running one though my head based on a Story Idea thread about a sister dominating a brother. But I'm working it up as teaching him rather than abusing him for her own purposes.

 

[lovecraft68]

I think what’s bothering you isn’t the content; it’s that you’d approach those old stories very differently today.

This is probably it because I went back to the 'family tradition' angle a couple years ago, and the story came out much better in my eyes. Some natural conflict, but drawn in by slow seduction, not being pushed into it.

I don't think I've gone soft as far as ideas and muse, but more like I've grown more careful with where I let my mind go in following up on the ideas. Certain rooms that I all but lived in, especially in my BDSM novels years ago, should really stay closed these days because I don't trust opening the valve a crack to let out some steam like I used to. Now it could be a ruptured pipe and trouble that extends well past writing screwed up stories.

Sometimes life takes a piece of you and that can extend to the creative you as much as 'real you.'

 

[lovecraft68]

I just don't do mean, even in 'bad' families.

I'm running one though my head based on a Story Idea thread about a sister dominating a brother. But I'm working it up as teaching him rather than abusing him for her own purposes.

Dominate is a strong word, and usually associated with hardcore domme treatment.

But there is simple control, which is less rough and demeaning and more about a simple power dynamic of an older more experienced woman having a younger less experienced man wrapped around her finger and will do anything she asks.

A term I use is "Velvet Domme"

 

[Kelliezgirl]

There is probably an element of truth to how people's tastes change with age. Although (nothing personal here), I'd think at your age you are pretty much locked into who you are.

We also tend to be instinctively protective of our work, particularly when it's fresh in our minds, and in our hearts. I had a professor who talked about the editing process, and the analogy she used was a baby.
You love your baby, you are proud of your baby, and your baby is perfect.
No one wants to be told they have a fat baby.
(Pause for effect)
There are some fat babies out there.

Sometimes you need a little distance to gain perspective.

 

[Plathfan]

This is probably it because I went back to the 'family tradition' angle a couple years ago, and the story came out much better in my eyes. Some natural conflict, but drawn in by slow seduction, not being pushed into it.

I don't think I've gone soft as far as ideas and muse, but more like I've grown more careful with where I let my mind go in following up on the ideas. Certain rooms that I all but lived in, especially in my BDSM novels years ago, should really stay closed these days because I don't trust opening the valve a crack to let out some steam like I used to. Now it could be a ruptured pipe and trouble that extends well past writing screwed up stories.

Sometimes life takes a piece of you and that can extend to the creative you as much as 'real you.'

Sorry to shatter your fantasy, but as testosterone levels drop with age, you soften---it’s simple biology. Soon enough, you’ll be tearing up, writing chick lit, and listening to opera... right before the diapers come in.

 

[SimonDoom]

I've experienced something like this over time, but it's less a matter of acknowledging that the reader is "right" than acknowledging that the reader offered an alternative point of view I hadn't fully thought of. I've always had a taste for what I call "gonzo porn" stories, where characters are somehow induced to do crazy, kinky things they would never have thought of doing before, with only the slightest veneer of explanation and plausibility given. So when I started writing I wrote some stories like that, and I still do. But the elements of some of those stories, especially those that veer into non-con content, repel some readers, and some have let me know it. I would say that I've been influenced to some extent so now I want to write with at least a little more attention paid to plausibility and to the full implications of what the characters are undergoing.

 

[lovecraft68]

Sorry to shatter your fantasy, but as testosterone levels drop with age, you soften---it’s simple biology. Soon enough, you’ll be tearing up, writing chick lit, and listening to opera... right before the diapers come in.

Okay, Opera is fighting words pal. Come over here and say that.

 

[Five_Inch_Heels]

No opera, but symphonic rock rules.

 

[lovecraft68]

I've experienced something like this over time, but it's less a matter of acknowledging that the reader is "right" than acknowledging that the reader offered an alternative point of view I hadn't fully thought of. I've always had a taste for what I call "gonzo porn" stories, where characters are somehow induced to do crazy, kinky things they would never have thought of doing before, with only the slightest veneer of explanation and plausibility given. So when I started writing I wrote some stories like that, and I still do. But the elements of some of those stories, especially those that veer into non-con content, repel some readers, and some have let me know it. I would say that I've been influenced to some extent so now I want to write with at least a little more attention paid to plausibility and to the full implications of what the characters are undergoing.

Gonzo is a great word.

I run into this issue where I want to just write wild sex with no real story, but find I have issues not having the infamous 'reason'

So...I did a five e-book series called the mom experiment where a mother creates a formula to help people dealing with GSA, but her partners, all good friends and women her age with kids-say its too risky to try so she injects herself and within fifteen minutes of being home her phermones which are now amped up to insane levels causes her son to want her and they're fucking away. She then finds out her partners felt bad they shot her down and they all took the shot to support her

5 books of three mothers fucking their sons while the fourth one is going at it with her daughter and all with the excuse of the shot...heh.

Cheat code!

 

[lovecraft68]

No opera, but symphonic rock rules.

These guys are great

 

[Plathfan]

Okay, Opera is fighting words pal. Come over here and say that.

Rhode Island is a musical graveyard, but if you're up for it, we can head to Boston tomorrow to catch Madama Butterfly. You’ll love Puccini. I’ll get the tickets, but the dress is on you.

 

[lovecraft68]

Rhode Island is a musical graveyard, but if you're up for it, we can head to Boston tomorrow to catch Madama Butterfly. You’ll love Puccini. I’ll get the tickets, but the dress is on you.

Only if you come to Boston with me on Halloween Night to see King Diamond.

 

[Rob_Royale]

Nothing that I didn't already know was true. I once had three stories near completion and really wasn't into any of them at the time. So I picked one, phoned in the ending and submitted it. Readers called me on it. I eventually submitted a better version of the story.

 

[Plathfan]

Only if you come to Boston with me on Halloween Night to see King Diamond.

Beneath the flashy makeup and riffs, he’s surprisingly soft. His high pitch and mannerisms are almost feminine... wait a sec...

 

[lovecraft68]

Beneath the flashy makeup and riffs, he’s surprisingly soft. His high pitch and mannerisms are almost feminine... wait a sec...

You my friend, are projecting.

But he does have an incredible range and now in his sixties still doesn't miss a note.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I reworked a few paragraphs of my first story here a few years after originally posting it, because one scene felt a little more dubcon than I was happy with for that story.

 

[TheRedChamber]

I've always had a taste for what I call "gonzo porn" stories, where characters are somehow induced to do crazy, kinky things they would never have thought of doing before, with only the slightest veneer of explanation and plausibility given. So when I started writing I wrote some stories like that, and I still do. But the elements of some of those stories, especially those that veer into non-con content, repel some readers, and some have let me know it. I would say that I've been influenced to some extent so now I want to write with at least a little more attention paid to plausibility and to the full implications of what the characters are undergoing.

I'm not sure from your post if you know this or not - if you do, regard this as a PSA for others rather than me patronizing you - but Gonzo porn is an actual term in pornography. The wikipedia article has it as 'attempting to place the viewer directly in the scene'. I always had it as doing away with all the plot pretense of early blue movies (aka spending time in Debbie Does Dallas establishing why the girls need money and how they are planning to get it), vs turning up at a studio or hotel room ready to fuck.

(Fascinating, Red, how did you get to know so much about pornography...)

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I'm not sure from your post if you know this or not - if you do, regard this as a PSA for others rather than me patronizing you - but Gonzo porn is an actual term in pornography. The wikipedia article has it as 'attempting to place the viewer directly in the scene'. I always had it as doing away with all the plot pretense of early blue movies (aka spending time in Debbie Does Dallas establishing why the girls need money and how they are planning to get it), vs turning up at a studio or hotel room ready to fuck.

(Fascinating, Red, how did you get to know so much about pornography...)

I bet you are fun at parties.

 

[TheRedChamber]

I bet you are fun at parties.

I wouldn't say fun, but educational certainly. And people do tend to drink more when forced into a conversation with me, which can have a beneficial knock-on effect later that night.