24/7

[catalina_francisco]

What is a mentor and what do they do in the BDSM context?

Someone who is there to guide you; listen to your thoughts and concerns as well as your triumphs and disappoinments; someone who will be honest with you, brutally when necessary; someone who will help and support you in your exploration of what you need/want; on occasion someone who will advise you; someone who will make sure you take safety precautions when perhaps your haste and anticipation might tempt you otherwise; basically someone you can trust to do and say what is best for you.

Catalina

 

[saw_man1]

If you're one of those people who would like to be in a 24/7 relationship someday, how will you know?

How does one know when they are in love? How does one know when the time is right to marry? Facts are processed, feelings analyzed and between the brain, the heart, and the gut, a decision is arrived at. You just know. In some cases one knows with absolute certainty and in others a small leap of faith is required.

24/7 is the goal at the end of my journey. I may have a few unplanned stops or pleasurable side trips along the way but my own interpretation of 24/7 will remain the goal.

Among my small group of friends that share an interest in D/s I use an acronym I've come up with, aatt (almost all the time). It better describes my own version of 24/7.

 

[Etoile]

It wasn't meant to be 'subbier than thou' and IMHO is difficult to interpret it that way given it was spoken by a male Dominant, not me, I would think?

If it had been spoken by Francisco, I wouldn't find it offensive - I would see it as part of the dance. Hearing it from a random dom is no different to me than hearing it from you; for me the only person whose opinion I don't question is my own dominant's. Everybody else is equal. So I still find it a bit "subbier than thou," but I get that vibe from a lot of your posts anyway, and it doesn't bother me a whole lot.

if we really did want 24/7 face to face to be our reality there really was nothing which should be stopping us. Yes I have values and commitments, a daughter and granddaughter I love with all my heart being just 2, but bottom line was I had committed to be a slave 24/7 so once that commitment was made there was no other priority that should and could come before or between that obligation/commitment/responsibility and reality...

I see no difference between this and a vanilla relationship between two people who love each other very much and can't bear to be apart. Lots of people leave behind their families, jobs, and lives to be with the person they love, regardless of what type of relationship it is. Do you feel that your decision is different in some way from theirs? Can you explain that to me more? Just because I don't see a difference doesn't mean there isn't one, so I welcome your thoughts on the subject.

I could not serve him to my best or fulltime or fully or appropriately with 16,000 kms between us...

Interesting...I wonder if HOW far apart people are has relevance in determining whether they end up getting closer. I could certainly see how a trip of 16,000km would be too great an undertaking to do it often. But I am only 250mi from my Daddy, and we spend a couple of weekends together a month, and I am comfortable with that. I really would prefer more, but I am happy with what I can get given my life choices.

For us, being poly would not change how we view 24/7...if we took on another in the relationship as 24/7, they would be expected to live with us permanently, serve 24/7 RL, and fulfil that commitment the same way we do now...

I can respect your thoughts on how poly might affect you if you tried it, but I must note that you are thinking about it in terms of how your relationship works now. What if Francisco had already been in a vanilla marriage when you met him, and he loved his wife dearly and didn't want to leave her, but he also wanted you in his life? Most poly relationships have "primaries," two people who are devoted to each other above the other relationships they might have. And yet this doesn't mean that they don't love their other partners as well - humans have a never-ending supply of love, as anyone with multiple kids can attest - it just means that they have made their choice about who fits into their lives in what way. (To summarize, just because I love my wife and am devoted to her doesn't mean I love my Daddy less than anyone else e might meet.) True polyamory is a lot more complicated than it seems when you're thinking about it hypothetically.

Whew...kinda wordy there. But I can't help it, I love discussion.

 

[serijules]

It wasn't meant to be 'subbier than thou' and IMHO is difficult to interpret it that way given it was spoken by a male Dominant, not me, I would think? Interestingly, I also took offence at the time, until I actually thought about what he said realistically and realised if we really did want 24/7 face to face to be our reality there really was nothing which should be stopping us. Yes I have values and commitments, a daughter and granddaughter I love with all my heart being just 2, but bottom line was I had committed to be a slave 24/7 so once that commitment was made there was no other priority that should and could come before or between that obligation/commitment/responsibility and reality...it was our reality....I made an informed decision to commit to being his slave and as such his being my number 1 priority in my life. I could not serve him to my best or fulltime or fully or appropriately with 16,000 kms between us...it just was not possible under the terms of what we had both agreed to and wanted.

For us, being poly would not change how we view 24/7...if we took on another in the relationship as 24/7, they would be expected to live with us permanently, serve 24/7 RL, and fulfil that commitment the same way we do now...as has been said before, 24/7 is not about swinging a flogger 24 hours of the day, it is about serving and being available to serve in any way required at anytime of the day or night with no switch off point, no free time to live a separate life, no freedom to choose to operate outside that relationship in terms of other romantic or sexual relationships, no choice to do things within hours which fit with our personal schedules, no choice to reserve contact for those times we can make ourselves available to be with our owner face to face. That is our reality, others find distance doesn't impact on their terms of agreement...we all have different definitions of what 24/7 means to us personally.

Catalina

I think what comes across as "subbier than thou" is that your words seemed to recognize we all have different definitions of what 24/7 means to us yet you also say that there should be nothing in the way of being together 24/7 as if that should apply to every person and every situation if they really wanted it regardless of what the situation is.

To a lot of us, family comes first...for both us and our partners. I cannot and will not drop everything and move across the country when it means I will hurt other people I love in the process, nor would my dominant own someone that would be willing to do that to their family knowing it will hurt people. For us, it would be a different situation if kids were grown and had lives of their own, or if grandparents that have supported us their whole lives were not in their last few years and should be treasured and taken care of in those years for all they gave, or parents would not financially be put in danger by a child they supported walking away from commitments and responsibilities. It goes against our beliefs and values, even though it would be more in line with our desires to be together without distance. In MY situation, it WOULD hurt other people not only emotionally, but financially. Yours was likely different, and that's fine, I'm happy you were able to make that choice. Not everyone is so lucky.

But for us, the priorities and responsibilites of our other roles in vanilla life (daughter, mother, granddaughter, etc) as well as other roles in a poly kink life (other submissives, other partners and lovers, etc) come before our personal desire to be together 24/7. Not all poly relationships involve a bunch of submissives serving one dominant. My own kink 'family' is rather complicated in that regard and none of anyone's business so I won't go into details, but there are relationships there that are separate and unique to each other for both me and my owner. In order for 24/7 live-in to be possible, one of those relationships would have to end or at the least, severely suffer. That is like asking someone to choose between their children.

So the two theories kind of clash. You can't accept that others have different definitions and at the same time say that "if you really want it, you'd drop everything". It just isn't that black and white.

I'm not trying to argue your situation or defend mine, at all...just giving an example of why it isn't as black and white as your words seem to imply. It may have been that black and white for you, which I rather envy, but for a lot of people that isn't their reality any more than their situation is yours.

For what it's worth, I am planning to move there to be her 24/7 live in slave once things change in some of those situations I mentioned above, and every decision I make is with that goal in mind. That...is my definition of 24/7, despite the obvious handicap of distance.

 

[catalina_francisco]

If it had been spoken by Francisco, I wouldn't find it offensive - I would see it as part of the dance. Hearing it from a random dom is no different to me than hearing it from you; for me the only person whose opinion I don't question is my own dominant's. Everybody else is equal. So I still find it a bit "subbier than thou," but I get that vibe from a lot of your posts anyway, and it doesn't bother me a whole lot.

Sorry you feel that way Etoile, and I guess it is your right to feel how you feel whether it is my intention or not. It is not the first time on this board that someone, including me, who is in a 24/7 relationship has been accused of thinking they are better simply because they discuss their reality openly. As to who it came from, the Dom in question was responding out of concern to my frustration and our recurring difficulties, and I found his response helpful as well as honest and eye opening. Throughout life there have been many things I have wanted to do but put off until tomorrow for a variety or reasons that at the time seemed legitimate to me but in hindsight and at a point where I am almost 50, I now recognise were nothing more than excuses and if I had really wanted hard enough to achieve that which I professed to, I would have made it happen just as I did when I decided the type relationship I wanted to be in the rest of my life, and went after it.

I see no difference between this and a vanilla relationship between two people who love each other very much and can't bear to be apart. Lots of people leave behind their families, jobs, and lives to be with the person they love, regardless of what type of relationship it is. Do you feel that your decision is different in some way from theirs? Can you explain that to me more? Just because I don't see a difference doesn't mean there isn't one, so I welcome your thoughts on the subject.

Did I ever say it was different? In general terms I don't see it as different as far as wanting to be together in a relationship...many people find excuses why it can't happen, others decide it is what they want/need and make it happen. It is a different outlook on life and ways of doing I expect. In terms of D/s though, yes I do see it as different than vanilla because for us, committing to slavery 24/7 is not something which can be put aside for when it fits into our schedules and/or part time. In committing to being a slave, I was committing to making him my number one priority in all ways, IOW, his needs come before my own, his wants come before mine, his life comes before mine...if there is someone or something else which needs my attention and he also needs me at the same time it is not a matter of choice or of telling him he has to wait until I am free, it is a matter of accepting it is his right to need me to put him first. Usually he doesn't if it is a significantly serious issue (and it has to be very serious as in health/life&death, not just a whim or desire of mine or the other person), but he will place restrictions on how long it takes me, might tell me how he wants me to handle it so I can be available to him sooner, may expect me to also be serving him 100% at the same time, and might tell me to stop in the middle at which point I attend to his needs, and he always expects me to remember I am his slave, belong to him, and make him the priority always, not just when I can.

If I was in a vanilla relationship and someone needed my attention or help, I might choose to tell him he will have to understand and be patient and then go do what I saw as more important in that moment hoping he would understand. If he didn't I would likely tell him I was sorry but I did not agree with him and I had other responsibilities besides just him, and even maybe suggest he was selfish to expect me to put everyone and everything aside the minute he objected or called. As a slave that is not how it works. In our situation I could easily have argued in vanilla terms that my daughter and grandaughter and ailing parents needed time to adjust to my leaving, that we needed time together and to make arrangements, that I needed an unlimited time to take care of my affairs in a less stressful way and sell my house etc, that I needed time to pack neatly and thoughtfully and then fly out once I felt organised and less stressed....that was not an option as a slave and would not enter my head to have done. If I had felt that was necessary I would not have committed to being a slave and instead reserved the right to be a submissive at first and then work my way to slavery and his side when time and circumstances permitted.

Interesting...I wonder if HOW far apart people are has relevance in determining whether they end up getting closer. I could certainly see how a trip of 16,000km would be too great an undertaking to do it often. But I am only 250mi from my Daddy, and we spend a couple of weekends together a month, and I am comfortable with that. I really would prefer more, but I am happy with what I can get given my life choices.

I think you have answered your own question. I am happy for you that 2 weekends a month are enough and you only live 250mls apart. For us, yes, 16,000 kms is a lot different and something we could not afford to travel in the interest of seeing each other regularly. It cost me $10,000 to move, plus air fares and then the expense of all the government documentation required once I got here, and setting up a new home for us. As neither of us were overflowing with money, we had to prioritise and simply put there was no choice but to bite the bullet and move. If we had spent money on visiting each other, even every few months, we would probably still be trying to find the cash for me to move....didn't make sense. We also had a deadline to meet in terms of my son being able to join us, so that was another factor. Bottom line though was once we met, married and spent those short 3 weeks together, being apart was unbearable for us. It hasn't changed even after over 4 years together...when he is away on business, or I travel back to Oz, whether it is 2 days or 3 weeks, it is too long and we are both craving each other and the physical closeness we share, the daily power exchange etc. While we are apart the dynamic remains, but it is not the same and is far less rigid in that as long as I get things done on time it is OK, there are no 'in the moment' service demands, there is not near as much physical commitment simply because I am not physically serving him in terms of getting his clothes ready, getting coffee, being physically available every moment, etc. At this point in time he says he cannot see me going to OZ without him anymore as he does not want to be apart for even 2 or 3 weeks.

I can respect your thoughts on how poly might affect you if you tried it, but I must note that you are thinking about it in terms of how your relationship works now. What if Francisco had already been in a vanilla marriage when you met him, and he loved his wife dearly and didn't want to leave her, but he also wanted you in his life? Most poly relationships have "primaries," two people who are devoted to each other above the other relationships they might have. And yet this doesn't mean that they don't love their other partners as well - humans have a never-ending supply of love, as anyone with multiple kids can attest - it just means that they have made their choice about who fits into their lives in what way. (To summarize, just because I love my wife and am devoted to her doesn't mean I love my Daddy less than anyone else e might meet.) True polyamory is a lot more complicated than it seems when you're thinking about it hypothetically.

This is probably the easiest to answer in this format. The scenario you painted wouldn't arise simply because he has even stronger feelings than I do about looking outside a relationship for someone to fill a space that is not being filled. We are both pretty much all or nothing type people, as well as heavily committed to D/s as opposed to vanilla, so being in a vanilla marriage and looking for the D/s on the side wouldn't happen and wouldn't fulfil our needs. We both need the D/s and love to be with the same person, it is part of the reason we love that person...as he says, vanilla bores him to tears and holds no interest for him on any level, emotionally or sexually. I was in a good vanilla relationship when I decided this was the life for me...I ended the vanilla relationship then began exploring the chance of finding a D/s partner as a life partner. He was in a D/s relationship before me...it wasn't working so he ended it and began looking for someone serious and committed enough he could spend his life with. Neither of us went looking while with other people, neither of us can settle for vanilla for a primary relationship and have no reason to have it as a secondary relationship.

We have discussed the possibility of poly in the future and have no problems with how it works. The biggest issue we both see with us making it successful is neither of us feel we could devote enough time to another to be fair, and we would grieve the time it took away from our own relationship. Yes, things could be done as 3, but that still takes away from our time as just 2 and at best we see it as a play thing, not a full blown love relationship. Caring for the third is possible, but neither or us feel we have the time or energy to give to it beyond fun. There is also this thing we have which both have been in a number of relationships, me more than he, and we realise what we have far surpasses anything we have had with others so the chances of finding something close to that again are next to nil, and why would we want to while we are both alive? I figure if I had to wait until my 40's (and I am 2 years of 50 now) to find this incredible magic, it sure as heck is not that prevelent out there to trip over again.

Whew...kinda wordy there. But I can't help it, I love discussion.

LOL, so do I.

Catalina

 

[BiBunny]

2. When do you know you're ready to move in with someone?

This is a tough one for me, I'm really torn.

There are aspects that I really love about living alone. I don't want to hear the TV in the background or half of someone's phone conversation. I want the freedom to invite people over whenever I want, and I don't want anyone else bringing strangers into my house. I don't want to fight about the A/C or the home decor. I don't even want groceries that I don't eat in the fucking refrigerator. Sometimes I don't want to have to see, deal with or talk to anyone. Sometimes I want to do something weird without having to answer any questions.

Voyeur and I spend about 2-3 nights together per week on average. We've experimented with less and more, and find that to be ideal for us, for now.

But sometimes I think I'm getting older and I'm changing. I don't want to be out on the streets all the time or at the bar or clubs talking to people I don't give a fuck about and trying to pick up strange women. I mean, I want a little bit of that, but I don't want to have to do it because I feel lonely.

Sometimes I feel like living alone is lonelier than it used to be. I remember what it was like when I was a kid and had a family. There was always someone you loved close by. Yeah, we fought and pissed each other off and there were problems, but all in all it wasn't a bad situation. I want to know that someone is in the other room, even if I can't see or hear them. I get tired of coming home to an empty house sometimes.

With the right people, at the right time in our relationship and in a situation where I had some space, it could work.

Thanks for your response, Marquis. I definitely, definitely see myself in the last half of your post, the bolded parts in particular. At the risk of sounding like I feel sorry for myself--which I don't!--, I sort of feel like I've basically been by myself most of my life. I was an only child, for one thing, and painfully shy. I don't have a large number of friends, to say the least. Don't get me wrong. I really like being alone most of the time. My first couple of years at college with roommates were the absolute WORST! I've lived alone, with my girlfriend in the same apartment complex, the last couple of years.

The older I get (yeah, I'll be the ripe old age of 23 in a couple of weeks--bear with me, though), the more I despise being alone all the time, though. I think at some point in the pretty near future, I might be ready for another live-in type relationship. Then I think about the two years of hell, living with my vanilla ex and reconsider! The big problem there, though, was problem the person rather than the living together. God knows, I'm not about to go up to Master and say, "Ok, I'm moving in!" Neither of us are ready right now, to say nothing of the fact that we're both pretty much stuck where we are for the time being because of our respective schools.

For a long time after the demise of the vanilla live-in relationship, I swore I'd be the crazy old cat lady before I'd live with another man. I think I've changed my mind at least somewhat. Living alone is, for me, lonlier than it used to be. At some point--as in the next few years--I think I'd like to give it another try.

So there you have it, Bunny's secret motivation for posting this thread!

 

[catalina_francisco]

LOL, one of the reasons I hope we never get seriously into poly is because I love living alone, and by that I mean me, myself and I with perhaps a furry pet or 2. I cannot imagine my handling having a third live with us and maintain my sanity. I moved out of home at 16 and got my own place and was very happy despite people feeling it was impossible to live alone and be happy. I went out some Saturday nights, rarely had visitors or at least for only an hour or two, and then spent the rest of the time alone or at work....didn't even have a phone!! Part of the struggle I have had with 24/7 is having to accept I will likely never have that alone space again, and which I was counting down the time to for years while my children grew up....guess it is one of the challenges which have attracted me to jumping in wholeheartedly, but does make me less than cheery some days.

Catalina

 

[Etoile]

It is not the first time on this board that someone, including me, who is in a 24/7 relationship has been accused of thinking they are better simply because they discuss their reality openly.

I think you misunderstand me. When I say "subbier than thou," I am not talking about my perception of your reality, which is what the above quote refers to - it's not about your lifestyle at all. Instead I am talking about your perception of my reality. I don't know if your reality is better, there probably is no such thin - but when I say "subbier than thou" I don't mean you think you're better...I mean you think I'm lesser. (Or so I perceive, anyway.) It comes across to me as belittling, though I believe you when you say you don't mean it that way...it's just how it makes me feel.

Onward!

Throughout life there have been many things I have wanted to do but put off until tomorrow for a variety or reasons that at the time seemed legitimate to me but in hindsight and at a point where I am almost 50, I now recognise were nothing more than excuses and if I had really wanted hard enough to achieve that which I professed to, I would have made it happen just as I did when I decided the type relationship I wanted to be in the rest of my life, and went after it.

Ah, now that I can fully understand and respect for you personally. I am almost 26 years old, and I know (or hope!) that I have a long life ahead of me. My current intention is to stay with both my partners long-term, but who knows - things change. However, if I were at a later point in my life, I could certainly understand looking back on my previous choices and making a radical decision for my own happiness. It makes perfect sense.

Did I ever say it was different? In general terms I don't see it as different as far as wanting to be together in a relationship...many people find excuses why it can't happen, others decide it is what they want/need and make it happen.

No, I don't think you did say it was different - we were just talking about 24/7 D/s, so I wanted to make sure you felt it applied to vanilla relationships too. I think the craving vanilla people have to be together is exactly the same as the craving we kinksters have to be in a D/s relationship. We just have more "whips 'n chains" in our version.

In committing to being a slave, I was committing to making him my number one priority in all ways [...]

You have talked about your lifestyle - your definition of 24/7 TPE - many times before, and what you said in this thread actually reinforces my certainty that I am also in a 24/7 TPE relationship. Because everything that you described is truly how we operate, too. Obviously I can't bring Daddy a glass of water in a timely manner, but if e called me up and said "come bring me a glass of water" I really would do it. (I'd probably say "uh...really?" first, simply because that's not what we normally do and it would sound like a joke, but if Daddy said "yes, really" I'd be looking for my car keys and hitting the road.) But eir wants and needs come before mine, eir opinions come before mine, and when we are together I definitely am in service at all times. Unfortunately I have a great deal more autonomy than I would like, but we do have rules and protocols set up that I adhere to long-distance. So yes, I really do see myself in a 24/7 TPE relationship...it's just also long distance.

I am happy for you that 2 weekends a month are enough and you only live 250mls apart.

It sounds so funny when you put it that way...two weekends a month really are not enough, we both feel that way, but it's the life we live. But I absolutely, positively understand the need to move closer together when the distance is so great that you can't see each other hardly at all.

It hasn't changed even after over 4 years together...

Have you guys really only been together four years?! I always thought it was much longer.

We have discussed the possibility of poly in the future and have no problems with how it works. The biggest issue we both see with us making it successful is neither of us feel we could devote enough time to another to be fair, and we would grieve the time it took away from our own relationship.

Ah, I'm glad you do realize what it means to be polyamorous. At times it has sounded like your vision of polyamory was "Francisco has two subs," but you have acknowledged here that it is indeed much more complicated than that! So I'm glad we're on the same page after all. Because damn, poly IS complicated...I live and breathe those complexities every day!

LOL, so do I.

Oh good! I like talking with you.