3 Poets
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twelveoone
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alright I was jokin on two, but I'm serious about EBB, she definitely reads easier than Shake, but I'm curious as to why you think she owns the sonnet
as far as I'm concerned the Jihad is over, so this is not a trap, although I may question, this is merely an inquiry
twelveoone
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he moved to the United Kingdom in 1914 (at age 25) and was naturalised as a British subject in 1927 at age 39.
Remember it was heavily edited by Pound, also the Wasteland may have been started as early as 1914, if definitely feels American.
Greensparks
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3 and 3
Rimbaud, Whitman, D. Thomas. A sensuousness, omniscience, and ribald seer quality to all three. Back-up 3: Stevens, Pound, Berryman.
Per thread instructions:
Rimbaud: Unadulterated teenage seer non-pareil
Whitman: Genre-crushing innovator, multiplicitous, copious mystic quality
D. Thomas: Universal, organic, elemental, non-derivative
Rimbaud, Whitman, D. Thomas. A sensuousness, omniscience, and ribald seer quality to all three. Back-up 3: Stevens, Pound, Berryman.
Per thread instructions:
Rimbaud: Unadulterated teenage seer non-pareil
Whitman: Genre-crushing innovator, multiplicitous, copious mystic quality
D. Thomas: Universal, organic, elemental, non-derivative
Last edited:
HarryHill
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Welcome GS
Enjoyed your NP's today. Sounds like you are going to fit in here well.
........................
Enjoyed your NP's today. Sounds like you are going to fit in here well.
This poster has good taste. In your poem Morrowing, Still I was hoping you'd rhyme 'hours' though. And then it would have reminded me of one of my favorite poems about daffodilly willys.
bogusagain
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twelveoone
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yeh.yeh.yeh
I want to know why EBB owns the sonnet
bogusagain
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I've tried to resist but I can't. A quote from George bernard Shaw...
A man of great common sense and good taste is a man without originality or moral courage.
I always remember what my old art lecturer used to say to his students and it has always stuck with me, 'If you ever acquire good taste, get an office job because you are a lousy artist.'
twelveoone
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ROFL
Google "portentous hush" "Salemi"
bogusagain
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That's on my to read list. I've had a quick scan and it looks a real laugh but I've got an opening on saturday and I'm behind schedule.
Angeline
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You're right: it's all about originality. I find that the poems (and examples of all forms of art) that draw me in and get me thinking do so because they are original, they feel different somehow for the majority of what I'm reading (seeing, experiencing, etc.).
One of my favorite quotes from my beloved Lester Young:
The trouble with most musicians today is that they are copycats. Of course you have to start out playing like someone else. You have a model, or a teacher, and you learn all that he can show you. But then you start playing for yourself. Show them that you’re an individual. And I can count those who are doing that today on the finger of one hand.
A man can only be a stylist if he makes up his mind not to copy anybody. Originality is the thing. You can have tone and technique and a lot of other things but without originality you ain’t really nowhere. Gotta be original.
Angeline
I thought I'd explain why I listed one poet and three reasons why, instead of three poets with one reason why for each, as requested. It was because, for me, Shakespeare was the original poet, and stood out easily as the big fish in my mind, but when I tried to come up with the other two it seemed like trying to select the two best minnows out of a bait bucket. I don't actually mean other poets are so much lesser than Shakespeare, because some are very good, obviously, but none have opened my eyes and mind to poetry the way Shakespeare did long ago, so they all seem lesser to me.
I thought I'd explain why I listed one poet and three reasons why, instead of three poets with one reason why for each, as requested. It was because, for me, Shakespeare was the original poet, and stood out easily as the big fish in my mind, but when I tried to come up with the other two it seemed like trying to select the two best minnows out of a bait bucket. I don't actually mean other poets are so much lesser than Shakespeare, because some are very good, obviously, but none have opened my eyes and mind to poetry the way Shakespeare did long ago, so they all seem lesser to me.
Angeline
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Well that makes perfect sense and I like seeing your reasons. We each have our own tastes and all are valid, right? Anyway I'm easy about rules in threads. I really just wondered who each of us loves to read/study/enjoy, and saw an opportunity for us to learn from each other.
twelveoone
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to put things in perspective willy would be hung by the balls if he posted at Literotica, partly rightly so, but more so because he knew nothing about illerative verse
anyway for your and Ang's amusement
Shakespeare, Stevens, & The Problem With Greatness
Twelve
Well, it's true that most of Shakespeare's poetry fell short of greatness, often by a considerable margin, so if he posted here he would deserve criticism, no doubt, unless he were extremely judicious in his posting. If he were judicious, there would be precious little to criticize, in my opinion.
I included four of my favorite Shakespeare sonnets in my 'Readings' thread, and I see your author rates only three of them very highly. I disagree on the fourth, of course, and hold Shakespeare in much higher esteem than I do Stevens, but I did enjoy reading Schneider's comparison of the two.
Remember, Babe Ruth struck out a lot, but he also hit more home runs per at bat than any other player in history, except for one, and that one had the benefit of PEDs. Ruth had only beer and hot dogs to enhance his performance, in his era.
Well, it's true that most of Shakespeare's poetry fell short of greatness, often by a considerable margin, so if he posted here he would deserve criticism, no doubt, unless he were extremely judicious in his posting. If he were judicious, there would be precious little to criticize, in my opinion.
I included four of my favorite Shakespeare sonnets in my 'Readings' thread, and I see your author rates only three of them very highly. I disagree on the fourth, of course, and hold Shakespeare in much higher esteem than I do Stevens, but I did enjoy reading Schneider's comparison of the two.
Remember, Babe Ruth struck out a lot, but he also hit more home runs per at bat than any other player in history, except for one, and that one had the benefit of PEDs. Ruth had only beer and hot dogs to enhance his performance, in his era.
twelveoone
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re: Shake
it is hard to think of something 500 years old as being innovative, and at the same time tragic. Somewhere in the past, I posted a link about brain imaging of a person subjected to Shakespeare's verbing the noun (stop and process).Shake also made up words as he went along. The tragedy-500 years later some people don't know when to stop.
As for Dan Schneider, I think voices like his are very important, don't agree all the time either. And to this day, I just don't get Stevens. Was hoping Ang might take the bait.
the illiterative verse crack was a slam on the the average reader, not willy.
it is hard to think of something 500 years old as being innovative, and at the same time tragic. Somewhere in the past, I posted a link about brain imaging of a person subjected to Shakespeare's verbing the noun (stop and process).Shake also made up words as he went along. The tragedy-500 years later some people don't know when to stop.
As for Dan Schneider, I think voices like his are very important, don't agree all the time either. And to this day, I just don't get Stevens. Was hoping Ang might take the bait.
the illiterative verse crack was a slam on the the average reader, not willy.
Angeline
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No, no taking the bait here. I love Stevens but I still don't get him enough to talk about his poems with any degree of intelligence. I mean I get that The Emperor of Ice Cream is about death but don't ask me to get too specific.
twelveoone
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A shame, from what I read, he should be someone I should know, I can't grasp it. Must be one of the many holes in processing. I guess I'll go beat the internet, maybe even read (gasp) a couple of books, I even own one. 'Til I dope that sucka out.No, no taking the bait here. I love Stevens but I still don't get him enough to talk about his poems with any degree of intelligence. I mean I get that The Emperor of Ice Cream is about death but don't ask me to get too specific.
HarryHill
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Tried hard not to get too involved in this thread and then see you all need to think about what you are saying. Compare music to poetry. Any genre, needs to change, evolve, become more than that which came before. Old news and perhaps a redundant post. (sigh) I should erase this.
Angeline
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No I don't think you're being redundant. Not only genres change and evolve, so does language. That's why most teenagers are dragged kicking and screaming to Shakespeare imho. They don't know a lot of the words at all and many words had totally different meanings in Elizabethan times, so it's sort of like learning a foreign language (1201 is saying a dead one, I think). When I was lucky enough to study Shakespeare with a good teacher, the mysteries were unlocked and I could see it for beautiful poetry on universal themes that it is.
But do I want to write like Shakespeare (never mind whether or not I ever could)? I don't think so because Elizabethan language and construction doesn't fit my world now. That doesn't mean I can't appreciate it or respect Shakespeare for being a brilliant poet of his time or his iconic influence as the Bard of Bards, I just don't necessarily want to write that way.
Actually it's not hard to imitate Shakespeare and most have or will at some point. Follow the right sonnet form and throw in a few thous or forsooths or some such and there you go. But a steady diet of it would be growth-limiting.
HarryHill
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"The Bard" receives more than his share of praise. I like him from plays. but know little else that he wrote and there is so much else to assimilate.
Universal themes? We have so many more now, yet the base urges show through them all; it's good to know poetry is not baseless, neh?
Universal themes? We have so many more now, yet the base urges show through them all; it's good to know poetry is not baseless, neh?
Angeline
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By universal themes, I mean the base urges (if I'm understanding correctly). Love, hate, jealously, misunderstandings, longings fulfilled and not, fear, deception, and more: these are all things Shakespeare has written about and whatever else has changed since his time, those things are timeless. We still wrestle to express them in writing and, I suspect, in all the arts.
I don't know who said this, or said it first, but it's full of truth:
"Times change. People don't."
Angeline
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I don't either but I agree!
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