Abuse: is there such a thing in the 'lifestyle'?

[the captians wench]

*Shank remembering why he is a switch and will still bottom once in a while as long as there are Tops around that say things like that*

So I'm not the only one that twitched when reading that.

 

[Netzach]

Any chance you would ind explaining the above a little more for the newbie. Pretty please? Particularly the emotionally distant bit please. I'm just not sure what you are saying and would like to know. Obviously if you prefer not to share I respect that, after all, you hardly know me and it may be more in your psyche than you want to discuss.

Thanks

Amora

Sure.

I bottomed primarily for me. I don't mind a certain amount of service, but when it came time for a scene I was very disappointed if the person on top spent a lot of time trying to get me turned on, worked up, etc. I wanted to feel pushed, challenged, etc, but I'm not a fighter and I don't try to get these things by acting out either. I don't as a rule, submit or bottom to get closer to the Top, bond with them, etc. I do it to learn myself. Being urged and directed and made to bond with the Top because he/she wanted that always freaked me out and turned me off.

If I want to bond emotionally with someone I'll have dinner with them or go to bed with them, or Top them. I don't bend the other way with the rarest of exceptions. Funny thing is, I've topped and met, and worked with a lot of people who felt as I did. It was still SM and still consented to, and didn't need a ton of explanation.

 

[Amora]

We won't take it as a personal attack, but we are all human and I for one don't agree anyone has been attacked, but there will always be a need to clarify, debate and explore any topic worth discussing....that to me is grown up. Some prefer to keep all discussions on a level playing field of "I agree's" or similar pleasantries, but IME that may be nice and true for some, but if we stick to the advice to not say anything if we don't feel that sentiment there is no discussion and no opportunity for us all to learn from each other, get to know each other's reality a little better, and reach some sort of understanding about who and what we all are. Given the boards I have visited, I would say this is one of the friendliest and most polite where there actually is some real discussion based on real experiences as opposed to abusive and thrill seeking postings, or just no response at all.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/134/376824463_35ca304946_t.jpg Catalina

Just to clarify I was not saying that everyone should agree, I was merely referring to some of the name-calling that went on is all.

As for the sharing of ideas and thoughts, hell yeah! I am learning every day and it's pretty much all been via these boards. I am all for exchange of ideas and lifestyles and my post was not intended to be against that. Apologies if it came across that way.

Amora

 

[Netzach]

I engage in Type B behavior because it makes me hard as a fucking rock. The fact that I can get a woman to voluntarily submit to such a thing gives me a sense of power like no other. It feeds my ego on multiple levels, including the part that is stroked by the fact that she offers this as a gesture of love and devotion for me as an individual human being.

I get off on the power and the control and the emotional feedback.

The questions that I feel most responsible for answering are: How do you know you're not abusing your partner? What makes your Type B activities more legitimate than those of a DV perp?

My answer is: Consent is a big part of the difference, but consent is not enough. Aside from the usual blips that occur in any relationship of any flavor, my partners have all been happy and thriving in both the relationship itself and in their respective communities as a whole.

Why do I feel responsible for answering these questions? Because I am aware of the monkey-see-monkey-do phenomenon in human behavior, and if ever there was a topic warranting frank and full disclosure of the issues involved, surely Type B behavior is it.

What about the role of information in informed consent?

Some of my relationships have consisted of spitting on someone and taking the contents of his wallet, duly handed over.

If you want to see people cry abuse and fakery and taking advantage, introduce money to the equation.

*shrug* these are not mentally challenged children, these are grown men capable of rational decisions.

 

[Amora]

Sure.

I bottomed primarily for me. I don't mind a certain amount of service, but when it came time for a scene I was very disappointed if the person on top spent a lot of time trying to get me turned on, worked up, etc. I wanted to feel pushed, challenged, etc, but I'm not a fighter and I don't try to get these things by acting out either. I don't as a rule, submit or bottom to get closer to the Top, bond with them, etc. I do it to learn myself. Being urged and directed and made to bond with the Top because he/she wanted that always freaked me out and turned me off.

If I want to bond emotionally with someone I'll have dinner with them or go to bed with them, or Top them. I don't bend the other way with the rarest of exceptions.

Ah, thank you. I understand now, I totally see how that would work too.

Thanks

Amora

 

[catalina_francisco]

Just to clarify I was not saying that everyone should agree, I was merely referring to some of the name-calling that went on is all.

As for the sharing of ideas and thoughts, hell yeah! I am learning every day and it's pretty much all been via these boards. I am all for exchange of ideas and lifestyles and my post was not intended to be against that. Apologies if it came across that way.

Amora

'Tis OK, we just get it thrown at us from time to time we should not be so outspoken, should not say anything which is even remotely vaguely not nice and comradeship like, and that to ask or disagree is basically trying to pick a fight...as you know, it isn't, but some think it is. I'm OK with those who don't feel comfortable enough to voice their opinion openly and honestly, as long as they don't try and silence me as well based on their own silence...but it happens from time to time.

Catalina

 

[Amora]

'Tis OK, we just get it thrown at us from time to time we should not be so outspoken, should not say anything which is even remotely vaguely not nice and comradeship like, and that to ask or disagree is basically trying to pick a fight...as you know, it isn't, but some think it is. I'm OK with those who don't feel comfortable enough to voice their opinion openly and honestly, as long as they don't try and silence me as well based on their own silence...but it happens from time to time.

Catalina

Goodness no, that was not my intention, everyone is completely entitled to their opinions. I've learnt a lot just by reading this thread. (I read the whole thing before posting at all)

On a similar vein, my hubby and I have no defined roles as such, we are both switches to some extent although he is more Dom and I more sub. We are learning as we go along together and it's really interesting to us to be able to read about other more established relationships to decide what will work for us in the long run. At the moment we only bedroom based, not sure we will ever be more than that but it's invaluable to meet such a diverse range of people. Particularly in the early days of exploration.

Amora

 

[Shankara20]

'Tis OK, we just get it thrown at us from time to time we should not be so outspoken, should not say anything which is even remotely vaguely not nice and comradeship like, and that to ask or disagree is basically trying to pick a fight...as you know, it isn't, but some think it is. I'm OK with those who don't feel comfortable enough to voice their opinion openly and honestly, as long as they don't try and silence me as well based on their own silence...but it happens from time to time.

Catalina

Someone trying to silence Cat? ROFLAMFAO!!!!!!!

please - never stop voicing YHO

 

[catalina_francisco]

Someone trying to silence Cat? ROFLAMFAO!!!!!!!

please - never stop voicing YHO

LOL, well it is fun they try but really, is it really even possible?!!http://members.home.nl/animation.world/index/dolzz/Dolzz34.gif

http://home.versatel.nl/topdownloads/erotiek/24.gif Catalina

 

[lil_slave_rose]

I am well aware of the way in which punishment works in a consensual D/s relationship. Etoile has just written some very helpful comments on the subject, but for anyone who is interested in learning more, I highly recommend this excellent post by Serijules.

Phoenix, I am not challenging the way you handle your relationship with Rose. But I do think you are being less than candid in your remarks. For one thing, you keep ducking the question of why you choose physical violence as a means of punishing your slave.

The topic of this thread is abuse. I am no expert on domestic violence, but I do notice a common element in the remarks made by previously abused women.

Post 3, above:
Post 21:
Post 174:
The common thread seems to be that the abuser lashed out at the victim (physically and/or verbally) and blamed his behavior on the fact that the victim had done or said the wrong thing.

Sound familiar?

Corporal punishment in a consensual D/s relationship looks the same on the surface, but of course it is very different. Why is it different? Not because the Top "has to" take a crop to her ass, but because the corporal punishment itself satisfies and fulfills *both* parties on some level.

JM, i'm not sure where you think He has ducked Your question, He has answered it atleast 3 times. here's what i don't get, when someone was admitting that their Dom 'abuses' them, i inquired about that, i showed my concern and wanted some answers to some questions, but when i did that, i basically got told by almost everyone that it wasn't my business, and that this lifestyle is a spectrum and i just don't 'understand their type of relationship' blah blah blah. but now, because Master punishes me and says He gets no pleasure from that ONE act, He's being asked to 'explain Himself' and He has,atleast 3 times, but because it doesn't fit into to what whoever wants it to, He's been called a liar. when i started this thread this is NOT what i intended for it. He is not abusive to me in any way, in fact He is the furthest from an abuser that anyone could ever imagine, so i don't see how you comparing what abused women (me included) said about their abuser, to what Master does as punishment, as valid. i have been punished ONE time and i'm really regretting the fact that i posted it on here, as it seems to have been thrown in Master's face and He's been made to feel like He has to justify His actions in doing what He did. we have a power exchange, and He does not have to justify to anyone why does anything, even though He has explained His point of view more than once, Yet every time, He's been called a liar, and then told He is 'ducking the question' could you explain to me how you think He has done that??

it's because HE used the words "has to" well in in OUR relationship it is a 'have to' to correct a behavior in which He finds displeases Him. He is not saying that this way is right for everyone. so, what is the problem with this?? speaking of ducking questions, you've ducked mine twice now.....i've already asked this question and got no response.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

I also am surprised to hear you say you did not enjoy the cropping. I get that it was "necessary" to maintain the power dynamic, but it seems odd that you both wouldn't be getting satisfaction out of the act as well. After all, if I just wanted to learn discipline, I'd become a yogi.

On the subject of "passing judgment," I have to admit I cringe a little when I hear something like, well, who am I to judge? Of course, it would be ridiculous if I pranced aroud in a corset sporting fresh crop marks and said, oh, you who like emotional humilation, y'all are a bunch of sick freaks! But that doesn't mean I will refuse to think critically about what is right in front of me, because it might be, gasp, judgmental.

sorry, but punishment is not supposed to be 'enjoyable' that is why i got NO pleasure from the cropping. i don't like the crop, at all, so it is used as punishment, as i'm not SUPPOSED to enjoy punishment. i don't understand the idea of punishing one, if one likes what they are being punished with, seems to me that would be a reward, and a reward is not what is needed when Master is not pleased with me. Master got no 'enjoyment' out of it because it was something He had to do because i had displeased Him, and He does not like to have to punish me, but it is necessary to keep our dynamic in tact and to further guide me (and Him) on this journey. i understand it's not for everyone, and that's fine. as far as judgments go, well there is a difference between judgments and opinions. you can give your opinion, but when you start saying what is right or wrong for another couple IMO is when that line gets crossed, obviously i'm guilty of judgments also, we all are, we're all human.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

But don't y'all think there is a difference between judging someone's personal relationship and telling them it is "wrong" as opposed to just saying "WTF, that's not for me"? That is the distinction I was trying to make.

exactly, this is what i'm trying to say as well.. there IS a difference.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

Ok I'm not Master Phoenix, obviously but he did not duck your question, he responded to it. He chose the physical violence because, as it says in his sig line, he's a sadist!! No, he didn't thoroughly enjoy it because he is a Dom and would prefer his word be obeyed and that Rose answer correctly. She herself admits she knew it was the wrong answer to give!

I'm gonna get flamed for this, but I've noticed Master Phoenix and Rose being attacked personally in quite a few threads lately and being a newbie myself I was more than a little disappointed. Guess I wrongly assumed this board was full of grown-ups with different views on life who could hold back on the whole who's better than who, who's way is best thing.

You know, as a Pagan I've learnt that there are enough people out there disagreeing with the way we do things without fighting amongst ourselves.

Just my 2c and not meant as a personal attack on anyway although I have quoted above this is not meant personally.

Amora

thank you Amora, and yes we've been attacked in a couple of threads, well mostly me, but now it seems that Master is being compared to an abuser, which is really funny to me, because He is not even close to that. and yes He is a Sadist and you pretty much hit everything on the head other than the reason He punishes me which is because He's displeased and it's part of our AGREED UPON dynamics in our relationship, i don't see why it needs to be justified *shrugs* i am seriously regretting ever saying anything about my punishment, because it has now been thrown in Master's face and He's having to justify over and over what he did and why He did it.....*sighs*

 

[MasterPhoenix]

I am well aware of the way in which punishment works in a consensual D/s relationship. Etoile has just written some very helpful comments on the subject, but for anyone who is interested in learning more, I highly recommend this excellent post by Serijules.

Phoenix, I am not challenging the way you handle your relationship with Rose. But I do think you are being less than candid in your remarks. For one thing, you keep ducking the question of why you choose physical violence as a means of punishing your slave.

This is the third time I have answered the question. I have not ducked it. But I will give it to you once again...

I USE CORPORAL PUNISHMENT AS A MEANS TO MAINTAIN THE CONSENSUAL POWER EXCHANGE DYNAMIC IN MY RELATIONSHIP.

The topic of this thread is abuse. I am no expert on domestic violence, but I do notice a common element in the remarks made by previously abused women.

Post 3, above:
Post 21:
Post 174:
The common thread seems to be that the abuser lashed out at the victim (physically and/or verbally) and blamed his behavior on the fact that the victim had done or said the wrong thing.

Sound familiar?

The difference is consent.

Corporal punishment in a consensual D/s relationship looks the same on the surface, but of course it is very different. Why is it different? Not because the Top "has to" take a crop to her ass, but because the corporal punishment itself satisfies and fulfills *both* parties on some level.

The corporal punishment in and of itself is not fulfillment, but it is a MEANS to keep the power dynamic in MY relationship.

(emphasis added just in case someone thinks I am speaking a universal truth.)

 

[Etoile]

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s12/image_macros/1168702253-1167572904128.jpg

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m14/rebecca222_2006/yeamau.gifhttp://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s12/image_macros/1168702253-1167572904128.jpghttp://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m14/rebecca222_2006/yeamau.gif​

Fixed your post Etoile

 

[CutieMouse]

*Shank remembering why he is a switch and will still bottom once in a while as long as there are Tops around that say things like that*

*me three*

(Well... except for the not being all that fabulous at the Topping thing, so we'd have to agree the me three-ness is more from a bottomy sort of place, but I do agree... very whimper worthy statements.)

... as for the thread, I'll just say I've seen some interesting and valid viewpoints, and leave it at that, because I'm stressed and grumpy, which usually means it's best I muzzle myself.

 

[JMohegan]

What about the role of information in informed consent?

Some of my relationships have consisted of spitting on someone and taking the contents of his wallet, duly handed over.

If you want to see people cry abuse and fakery and taking advantage, introduce money to the equation.

*shrug* these are not mentally challenged children, these are grown men capable of rational decisions.

If you're talking about commerce, I have very little patience for those with buyer's remorse. I should think that informed consent would have to be fully sufficient in that context.

In my type of long-term 24/7 D/s, I do not believe that informed advance consent is ever completely possible. A laudable ideal, yes. A reality, no.

 

[JMohegan]

thank you Amora, and yes we've been attacked in a couple of threads, well mostly me, but now it seems that Master is being compared to an abuser

Apparently you either missed, or are deliberately choosing to ignore, several of my remarks.

From post 279:

Phoenix, I am not challenging the way you handle your relationship with Rose.

and from the same post:

The common thread seems to be that the abuser lashed out at the victim (physically and/or verbally) and blamed his behavior on the fact that the victim had done or said the wrong thing.

Sound familiar?

Corporal punishment in a consensual D/s relationship looks the same on the surface, but of course it is very different. Why is it different? Not because the Top "has to" take a crop to her ass, but because the corporal punishment itself satisfies and fulfills *both* parties on some level.

If I thought he were abusing you, I would have come right out and said so a long time ago.

 

[JMohegan]

Yet every time, He's been called a liar, and then told He is 'ducking the question' could you explain to me how you think He has done that??

The question to which I have not received an answer is: Why does he choose physical violence instead of a non-violent means of punishment?

I have heard reasonable answers to this question from other people at various times. But so far I have not seen Phoenix providing any answer to it at all.

it's because HE used the words "has to" well in in OUR relationship it is a 'have to' to correct a behavior in which He finds displeases Him. He is not saying that this way is right for everyone. so, what is the problem with this?? speaking of ducking questions, you've ducked mine twice now.....i've already asked this question and got no response.

You will find the answer to your question in post 290 and the last sentence of post 298, above.

 

[MasterPhoenix]

In post 314 above the answer to your question is in bold print. that is the third time I answered it, and bolded it so that it would not be missed.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

Apparently you either missed, or are deliberately choosing to ignore, several of my remarks.

From post 279:
and from the same post:
If I thought he were abusing you, I would have come right out and said so a long time ago.

then what exactly is your point to all of this? you are comparing things abused women say to what Master chooses as His punishment for me. the difference in those things is CONSENT, and that He is not lashing out at me in anger when He punishes me, He doesn't punish me for no reason, and i'm sorry but i cannot agree that there is no difference between an abusive husband coming home from work and punching and kicking his partner because he's had a bad day, and Master punishing me when i've done wrong.....they are NOTHING alike, totally and completely different things.He is not harming me in any way when He punishes me with the crop, where my ex husband HARMED me many times by punching me, kicking me, throwing things at me, etc...HUGE difference....where do you see these things as the same????

 

[MasterPhoenix]

The question to which I have not received an answer is: Why does he choose physical violence instead of a non-violent means of punishment?

I have heard reasonable answers to this question from other people at various times. But so far I have not seen Phoenix providing any answer to it at all.
.

OK, so now you reworded the question so to get the answer that you are seeking.

I choose between corporal punishments and other punishments depending on the situation and the reason for the punishment. I choose the best method to get across My message and atone for the transgression.

It is a matter of choosing the right tool at the right time.

At the time in question, a few strikes served as a quick reminder of her place, and then we got on with our lives, with our relationship stregthened by the reminder.

 

[Netzach]

If you're talking about commerce, I have very little patience for those with buyer's remorse. I should think that informed consent would have to be fully sufficient in that context.

In my type of long-term 24/7 D/s, I do not believe that informed advance consent is ever completely possible. A laudable ideal, yes. A reality, no.

I am not talking about quid pro quo commerce. I am talking about a situation in which the money transfers hands as a sign of power imbalance. That is the scene. I'm given something, which would normally inspire gratitude. It inspires spit and "you can leave now."

The people treated to this behavior knew in advance that they would or might be. If you're informed "expect anything" then you're informed, yes?

 

[Netzach]

This is reminding me of the interview Charlie Rose did with Erol Morris and Robert McNamara.