Adultery in the "Loving Wives" category

[sbrooks103x]

I'll stay with you here, because I think it's important to understand the difference between rating down a story that's bad (badly written, a mess, bad in every way, should never have been submitted in that state) and a story that has an ending you personally dislike, but that's well written and truly not actually offensive. A 'lack of' something can't be offensive. Or, at least, it shouldn't be.

Yes, you can rate that down. But to my mind, those stars are there to help readers gauge the quality of the work, not someone's preferences. Who cares if you personally like or don't like a story? Starring it down tells readers it's probably badly executed. Wheras all it means when LW folks do this is 'this did not go the way I wanted it to'.

When I open something that's truly not my kink, but it's well-written, I'll still rate it a 5. Good writing should be rewarded, or it'll go away. And you never know what that person might write next.

What you're describing sounds like, 'someone wrote a story I don't think should exist, so I'm rating it down'. And I think that's an unfortunate attitude to have towards contributors.

No, not that I don't think should exist, a story that I didn't like. Jackson Pollock is considered a great artist. I don't care for his work. If I were scoring his work on Lit's five star scale I would give him two stars. You apparently feel that I should either give him five stars because his art is great, or just leave.

 

[JasonClearwater]

I would suggest that if you can acknowledge he's a great artist, you shouldn't leave a score at all, since you recognise the issue is not whether or not he's good, but whether or not you appreciate his work.

 

[reeche]

First, I think you mentioning "fetish" is quite interesting, because the biggest "swarm" if you will is against cuckold stories, which many, if not most, of us IS a fetish and therefore belongs in the Fetish category, not in LW,

I'm not quite sure of what point you are making here so a little more clarity on this one and I'd respond. No offense meant. Like I said, I'm new to the site so the distinction between what distinguishes a fetish from some other kind of story is lost on me. It often feels like splitting hairs.

As far as cheating might not need a consequence (I'm not sure how you define "punishing") I guess we're going to have to disagree. I'm not saying that if they don't they should be met with rage and anger, I've written some reconciliation stories myself, but even there there MUST be some consequence prior to the reconciliation.

I certainly believe that is a rule you believe in. And there are certainly rules I believe in that others may not, that make some stories better than others. But the best I can say is that these are simply guidelines. An erotic story can work on an emotional level, a brain level, or just a dick level to be crude and that's all it has to do. A stroke story doesn't necessarily need to fit into a real world consequences and morality situation. It's why there are some many popular stories about lusty mothers and sons eagerly getting it on when in real life the consequences for that would be dire 99%.

Now personally I actually agree with you in theory that for my tastes a story that has conflict (I prefer that term to consequences because to me consequences sounds like some sort of easily scored morality system) I prefer some conflict and some drama in my story. I think the gray area is more entertaining for me to read than pure black and white, this is either good or evil type of a story. But I still think that can still be termed a preference situation.

Not everybody wants that kind of drama. Sometimes a person wants a lusty mother and son eagerly going at it, because its fantasy. The escape and the fun for them is precisely that its not dealing with the real life morality consequences. I think the point is that there are many ways to skin a cat. And its sometimes too easy to believe that the way I like it skinned is the only proper way to do it.

But I think these are sides issues. The main reason I originally posted is mainly that I think the comment sections for the loving wives story are especially bad and vitriolic compared to others. I'm sure its a known thing of course but that doesn't make it right. It just feels like there are a large number of anonymous trolls systematically voting down stories because of subject matter alone. It would be one thing if the critical comments were of some intelligent nature. I may or may not agree with specific intelligent discussion but when its a bunch of comments saying "Fag Cuck Shit" on nearly every story that isn't a btb type story, then its easy to see what is going on. It's the internet so nothing can really solve the issue but I don't think its right to side with the people causing the issue.

There are lots of ways to legit criticize a story beyond saying I simply don't like this kind of story. Because if that is the depth of the criticism then there isn't really much of a discussion to be had.

Not all of that is aimed at you btw. Not saying you are guilty of all that.

 

[sbrooks103x]

Well, I could write you a story that would illustrate how this might work. My concern is that you feel someone's a 'cuck' if they don't take revenge or 'act out' against their partner, regardless of the circumstances, and I'm not sure I could write something that'd convince you otherwise, since you'll interpret it through the lens of your own emotional response to that situation.

I guess we could go to therapy together. *grins*


Ah, it's just fiction. Not worth all this angst.

You're probably right. The closest I can think of off the top of my head is the one-time drunken slip-up, and those stories a very few and far, far between.

 

[sr71plt]

Ho hum, indeed. It's SO obvious, yet you can't explain it! It's so much easier to just cast stones.

Sure I can explain it. If you recognize that your problem with a story is a belief/prejudice you have on a content point only, you are a dick not to just back out of it and leave it to those without your personal hangup. And if you read a second story by that author and punish that one too for the same personal hangup you have, you're being a double dick. Any of this getting through to you? Literotica is set up to serve only your personal tastes.

And now that's enough on that as far as I am concerned. You seem too self-absorbed to see beyond your own sense of entitlement.

 

[sbrooks103x]

I would suggest that if you can acknowledge he's a great artist, you shouldn't leave a score at all, since you recognise the issue is not whether or not he's good, but whether or not you appreciate his work.

Well, we obviously disagree with what the score represents. You feel it represents how good the story is, I feel it represents how much I liked it.

 

[sbrooks103x]

I'm not quite sure of what point you are making here so a little more clarity on this one and I'd respond. No offense meant. Like I said, I'm new to the site so the distinction between what distinguishes a fetish from some other kind of story is lost on me. It often feels like splitting hairs.

You had this statement: "Instead it feels like a brigade of people who don't like a certain fetish or kink and instantly swarm and attack anything that approaches that particular thing which is really dumb."

One of the big debates in LW revolves around what is a fetish, because there IS a "Fetish" category, so theoretically if something is a fetish then it should be there, rather than LW. So when you talk about a brigade not liking a certain fetish, you're sort of making there point, that the fetish (in this case cuckoldry) IS indeed a fetish and should be in "Fetish."

 

[JasonClearwater]

You're probably right. The closest I can think of off the top of my head is the one-time drunken slip-up, and those stories a very few and far, far between.

I can think of a few more with complexity, but *shrug* I get where you're coming from. I think you get where I'm coming from.

Incidentally, just for fun I screenshotted my ratings before I entered this conversation. And wouldn't you know it! Someone's detonated a 1 against a story that was sitting at 4.8. It's slow-scoring, so quite obvious.

That's the other beef I have with the LW crowd. Say something they don't like, they come after work that's not even in their category, and they do it not like you are here (who I can at least respect for putting your opinion out there and discussing it, even if we don't agree), but silently, thinking they're clever.

The bad news is, no one cares. Either sweeps will come through, or I'll drop an H and move on with my life.

It's just sad. Somewhere out there are a bunch of little boys who need their nappies changed. You have to wonder if that pettiness didn't contribute to their current emotional baggage.

Oooh, yeah, I went there. *grins*

 

[JasonClearwater]

You had this statement: "Instead it feels like a brigade of people who don't like a certain fetish or kink and instantly swarm and attack anything that approaches that particular thing which is really dumb."

One of the big debates in LW revolves around what is a fetish, because there IS a "Fetish" category, so theoretically if something is a fetish then it should be there, rather than LW. So when you talk about a brigade not liking a certain fetish, you're sort of making there point, that the fetish (in this case cuckoldry) IS indeed a fetish and should be in "Fetish."

Incidentally, do you have any insight into why it upsets the LW crowd so much if they read something they feel was placed wrong? It's almost as if someone personally walked into their living rooms, put the story on their screens and then forced their eyes open.

In my favourite categories (GM and non-con), I've seen everything from incest to pony-girls, to cross-dressing to romance... and never once have I felt the need to star something down because it was 'in the wrong place' or leave a shitty comment for the author for the same. I don't think this makes me Paragon. It just seems like... I don't know, common courtesy?

I'm sorry, the LW attitude just reeks of entitlement. I think they need more Pride parades in their lives.

 

[KimGordon67]

If you browse comments on other LW stories, you'll find that some LW readers would like exactly that. There are a lot of "wimp, he should have [creepy revenge fantasy here]" comments. For whatever reason, some people are so obsessed with adultery that they seek out stories about the topic they claim to hate; LW is notorious for toxic commenters.

You certainly may post infidelity stories on Literotica - I mean, you already did. The question isn't whether you're allowed to do it, just whether you're willing to put up with the assholes who flame that kind of story, and that's not something anybody else can answer for you. Certainly you're not going to get a coherent discussion with people whose thought process is "I hate these stories, so I will read them".



I'm not sure I understand the question; are you saying that masturbation and adultery are morally equivalent? If so, well, I think many would disagree.



What on earth makes you think they do?

I can't recall seeing any of the foam-at-the-mouth-LW-commenter crowd expressing support for marriage equality. They always struck me as insecure rage-filled poster boys for toxic masculinity, which goes hand in hand with homophobia.



[citation needed]

That last bit cracked me up.

 

[SimonDoom]

Well, we obviously disagree with what the score represents. You feel it represents how good the story is, I feel it represents how much I liked it.

That strikes me as fine if, because you don't like the story, you drop it from a 5 to a 4 despite the fact that technically it deserves a high score. But if you drop it to a 1 just because it's not your cup of tea, you are being unfair. Your vote has negative consequences for the author on the site, and your vote shows no sense of perspective, because there are a plenty of very poorly-written stories on this site that deserve low grades.

I'm not sure, from your comments, if you actually disagree with this, because you wrote earlier that you just don't read or score the kinds of stories that you might downgrade in this way because of their content. If that's so, that seems reasonable to me.

 

[reeche]

You had this statement: "Instead it feels like a brigade of people who don't like a certain fetish or kink and instantly swarm and attack anything that approaches that particular thing which is really dumb."

One of the big debates in LW revolves around what is a fetish, because there IS a "Fetish" category, so theoretically if something is a fetish then it should be there, rather than LW. So when you talk about a brigade not liking a certain fetish, you're sort of making there point, that the fetish (in this case cuckoldry) IS indeed a fetish and should be in "Fetish."

When I said it, I meant it more in the way of that I think everything is a fetish and its all personal opinion.

I didn't even originally understand what loving wives stories meant. Then as I read them, I understand that it was basically just a goof on the word loving and it actually meant cheating wives.

I think they are in the same family of story of course. It's basically how you respond to the cheating wife. Do you submit or do you burn her and then of course all the middle ground options.

The problem seems to be that a segment of the btb crowd hates the submit style stories and aggressively bombard them. I just don't think that's right although I understand why one personality type that prefers one of those kind of stories wouldn't like the other kind.

 

[sbrooks103x]

That strikes me as fine if, because you don't like the story, you drop it from a 5 to a 4 despite the fact that technically it deserves a high score. But if you drop it to a 1 just because it's not your cup of tea, you are being unfair. Your vote has negative consequences for the author on the site, and your vote shows no sense of perspective, because there are a plenty of very poorly-written stories on this site that deserve low grades.

I'm not sure, from your comments, if you actually disagree with this, because you wrote earlier that you just don't read or score the kinds of stories that you might downgrade in this way because of their content. If that's so, that seems reasonable to me.

Okay, there are two basic groups of stories:

1) The cuck stories, where the husband either enjoys, or is forced to endure, his wife fucking other men. These stories can usually be identified by Title, Description or Author. I avoid these.

2) Cheating wives - I enjoy reading these. Some are RAAC (Reconciliation At All Costs). I don't care for these, they seem to be pretty rare these days, though some of the BTB trolls will scream RAAC at ANY story where there is reconciliation, and I disagree with them. There are "normal" reconciliation stories, where the reconciliation is "earned" in some way. I can enjoy those if I feel that the reconciliation is indeed earned, and not Deus ex Machina. There are Consequence stories, where there is SOME price paid for the cheating, from simple divorce to BTB. I used to lean towards BTB, but have softened, though I think that SOME offenses deserve it, though rarely "scorched earth." For an example I refer you to RichardGerald's "The Bridge" and I challenge you to argue against this wife getting burned!

 

[sbrooks103x]

When I said it, I meant it more in the way of that I think everything is a fetish and its all personal opinion.

I didn't even originally understand what loving wives stories meant. Then as I read them, I understand that it was basically just a goof on the word loving and it actually meant cheating wives.

I think they are in the same family of story of course. It's basically how you respond to the cheating wife. Do you submit or do you burn her and then of course all the middle ground options.

The problem seems to be that a segment of the btb crowd hates the submit style stories and aggressively bombard them. I just don't think that's right although I understand why one personality type that prefers one of those kind of stories wouldn't like the other kind.

Well, I definitely disagree with you that EVERYTHING is fetish!

I'm reminded of a joke"

What's the difference between kinky and perverted?

Kinky is when you use feathers. Perverted is when you use the whole chicken!

 

[luedon]

Unpunished Adultery

It seems to me there are two groups of LW readers, SimonDoom, that insist on retribution and form what is generally called the BTB group of authors, readers and commenters. The Moral Brigade just say it is wrong and must be punished. The Walking Wounded are men who have been rejected or 'cheated upon' by their wives and wish for revenge.

The possibility that two adult people could learn something positive from their experience of 'cheating' is beyond their comprehension.

I can understand the bitter feelings of the walking wounded. They feel hurt and betrayed.

But the Moral Brigade mostly come from a country which has recently elected a pussy-grabbing serial adulterer as its leader. A country where a quite significant proportion of the married population admits to having engaged in one or more adulterous relationships.

How come there are so many of the Moral Brigade reading stories about wives having sex with men who are not their husbands?

 

[sbrooks103x]

It seems to me there are two groups of LW readers, SimonDoom, that insist on retribution and form what is generally called the BTB group of authors, readers and commenters. The Moral Brigade just say it is wrong and must be punished. The Walking Wounded are men who have been rejected or 'cheated upon' by their wives and wish for revenge.

The possibility that two adult people could learn something positive from their experience of 'cheating' is beyond their comprehension.

I can understand the bitter feelings of the walking wounded. They feel hurt and betrayed.

But the Moral Brigade mostly come from a country which has recently elected a pussy-grabbing serial adulterer as its leader. A country where a quite significant proportion of the married population admits to having engaged in one or more adulterous relationships.

How come there are so many of the Moral Brigade reading stories about wives having sex with men who are not their husbands?

I KNOW I'm going to regret this, but here goes: I'm NOT "walking wounded". Are people who enjoy reading murder mysteries, and want to see the killer caught and punished part of a "moral brigade?"

I DON'T read "stories about wives having sex with men who are not their husbands." That's Joe's bag, not mine. I enjoy reading stories where husbands catch/discover/find out that their wives are cheating, and seeing what they do about it.

You put cheating in quotes, like it's not REALLY cheating. I've asked this of you before, tell me something positive that can come from cheating.

Cheating is when a wife has sex with another man either behind her husband's back or over his objections. How can that POSSIBLY result in anything positive?

For the record I have never engaged in an adulterous relationship, and didn't vote for Herr GroppenFeuhrer.

 

[luedon]

No, SB, not the Walking Wounded

I classify you as a leading light of the Moral Brigade. I have no idea of your personal experiences, but it seems to me that you simply say 'thou shalt not'. The Walking Wounded reflect their own experiences and feelings of being betrayed rather than an all-encompassing moral standpoint.

Regarding the ability of people to learn from cheating and have positive rather than negative consequences, I do believe that my three stories in the Lue to Lucy series provide just one example.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I don't think it's been established that Lit. erases all 1 votes or does sweeps as often as every week.

They definitely don't erase all 1s. The most prolific author on this site has quite a few stories with average ratings below 2, which implies some 1s in the mix.

 

[Bramblethorn]

You put cheating in quotes, like it's not REALLY cheating. I've asked this of you before, tell me something positive that can come from cheating.

Cheating is when a wife has sex with another man either behind her husband's back or over his objections.

I'm fairly sure it also counts when she has sex with another woman in the same circumstances, or when it's the husband doing it, but I'm going to assume you meant to include those cases

How can that POSSIBLY result in anything positive?

A few possibilities, all based on RL scenarios that I've either witnessed or read about:

#1: Husband and wife are both unhappy because their relationship isn't giving them what they need. One of them gets frustrated enough to cheat. The spouse finds out one way or another and gets a nasty shock, as a result they start actually talking to one another about what's going wrong in their relationship and figuring out how to fix it. End result, they come out of it with a happier and healthier relationship than when they went in.

#2: Husband is an asshole who hates and disrespects his wife. She's miserable, but eventually she finds a nice guy. She sleeps with him, realises she doesn't have to spend the rest of her life locked in a miserable marriage, and leaves her husband to live happily ever after.

#3: Husband gets Alzheimer's and has to move into a care home. He forgets his wife and forms a relationship with one of the women there. His wife accepts this and finds somebody else herself, but she's not willing to divorce him because she still cares about him and marriage makes it easier for her to ensure good care.

Cheating usually accompanies an unhappy relationship, but sometimes it's more of a symptom or a coping mechanism than the cause of that unhappiness.

And, sure, very often it's a shitty and hurtful act. But it doesn't always have to be so, especially on a fiction site where authors may seek out interesting and unexpected situations.

 

[sbrooks103x]

I'm fairly sure it also counts when she has sex with another woman in the same circumstances, or when it's the husband doing it, but I'm going to assume you meant to include those cases



A few possibilities, all based on RL scenarios that I've either witnessed or read about:

#1: Husband and wife are both unhappy because their relationship isn't giving them what they need. One of them gets frustrated enough to cheat. The spouse finds out one way or another and gets a nasty shock, as a result they start actually talking to one another about what's going wrong in their relationship and figuring out how to fix it. End result, they come out of it with a happier and healthier relationship than when they went in.

#2: Husband is an asshole who hates and disrespects his wife. She's miserable, but eventually she finds a nice guy. She sleeps with him, realises she doesn't have to spend the rest of her life locked in a miserable marriage, and leaves her husband to live happily ever after.

#3: Husband gets Alzheimer's and has to move into a care home. He forgets his wife and forms a relationship with one of the women there. His wife accepts this and finds somebody else herself, but she's not willing to divorce him because she still cares about him and marriage makes it easier for her to ensure good care.

Cheating usually accompanies an unhappy relationship, but sometimes it's more of a symptom or a coping mechanism than the cause of that unhappiness.

And, sure, very often it's a shitty and hurtful act. But it doesn't always have to be so, especially on a fiction site where authors may seek out interesting and unexpected situations.

#2 and #3 are very special cases, and don't figure into most of the LW stories we read, and I HOPE it's obvious that I wouldn't expect the wives in either case to suffer any consequences.

In #1, if EITHER party is unhappy enough to cheat, they have an OBLIGATION to at least attempt to talk to their spouse rather than cheat. If the spouse won't talk and/or go to counseling, then separation or divorce is the answer. CHEATING is wrong. If they are fortunate enough for the cheating to be a wake-up call, all well and good, and I suppose that IS a case of something positive coming from cheating, but I would hazard a guess that is the LEAST likely outcome.

 

[SimonDoom]

#2 and #3 are very special cases, and don't figure into most of the LW stories we read, and I HOPE it's obvious that I wouldn't expect the wives in either case to suffer any consequences.

In #1, if EITHER party is unhappy enough to cheat, they have an OBLIGATION to at least attempt to talk to their spouse rather than cheat. If the spouse won't talk and/or go to counseling, then separation or divorce is the answer. CHEATING is wrong. If they are fortunate enough for the cheating to be a wake-up call, all well and good, and I suppose that IS a case of something positive coming from cheating, but I would hazard a guess that is the LEAST likely outcome.

I'm not going to dispute your moral views, because we're all entitled to our different views, and I respect yours. I do take issue in this way: real life often does not conform to any moral formula, and there's no obligation for fiction to do so, either. In real life, people do bad things, they get away with doing them, and they move on. Not always, but sometimes. There's nothing wrong with fiction capturing that fact. In Woody Allen's Crimes and Misdemeanors, Martin Landau's character has an affair, eventually has the mistress murdered, and, aside from experiencing some angst and fear of getting caught, he gets away with it with no consequences. That stuff happens. It can make for a good story, even if it's unpleasant or deviates from our moral sense of the way things "should be." You can have whatever attitude you want about whether you enjoy such stories -- that's fine with me -- but it seems weird to me to punish an author who's written such a story, which otherwise is well-written, because it doesn't follow your sense of just desserts. Plus, there's a matter of degree. Knocking it down one star is one thing, but dropping it from what otherwise would be a 5 to a 1 shows no sense of judgment. There are people who vote this way on this site (you may not be one of them -- I am unsure from your answers if you do this), especially in LW, and I think that's just wrong.

 

[sbrooks103x]

I'm not going to dispute your moral views, because we're all entitled to our different views, and I respect yours. I do take issue in this way: real life often does not conform to any moral formula, and there's no obligation for fiction to do so, either. In real life, people do bad things, they get away with doing them, and they move on. Not always, but sometimes. There's nothing wrong with fiction capturing that fact. In Woody Allen's Crimes and Misdemeanors, Martin Landau's character has an affair, eventually has the mistress murdered, and, aside from experiencing some angst and fear of getting caught, he gets away with it with no consequences. That stuff happens. It can make for a good story, even if it's unpleasant or deviates from our moral sense of the way things "should be." You can have whatever attitude you want about whether you enjoy such stories -- that's fine with me -- but it seems weird to me to punish an author who's written such a story, which otherwise is well-written, because it doesn't follow your sense of just desserts. Plus, there's a matter of degree. Knocking it down one star is one thing, but dropping it from what otherwise would be a 5 to a 1 shows no sense of judgment. There are people who vote this way on this site (you may not be one of them -- I am unsure from your answers if you do this), especially in LW, and I think that's just wrong.

Once again, I'm not trying to police what stories are written or posted, simply asserting my right to score them as I see fit. No, I would NOT knock down a 5 to a 1 just because I disapproved in some way, though I doubt that I would find a story like that a 5 to begin with. I wish Lit would adopt SOL's 10 point scale. There a 10, which mathematically equates to a 5, is defined as "Most Amazing Story," which I'm sure you agree are rare. Their "Great" is a 9, which equates to 4.5, that Lit doesn't have, so I usually score "very good" AND "great" stories only 4. I reserve 5 for rare stories, like Oshaw's "Grief."

In any case, I DON'T mark down an author's other stories because I had a problem with another story.

 

[Bramblethorn]

In #1, if EITHER party is unhappy enough to cheat, they have an OBLIGATION to at least attempt to talk to their spouse rather than cheat. If the spouse won't talk and/or go to counseling, then separation or divorce is the answer. CHEATING is wrong.

Yep, people should talk to their spouses sooner rather than later. But way too many get to adulthood without ever learning how to have those difficult conversations. Sometimes they don't get to that stage until something - like cheating, for instance - smacks them over the head and forces them to face facts. Some don't get to it even then.

 

[sbrooks103x]

I classify you as a leading light of the Moral Brigade. I have no idea of your personal experiences, but it seems to me that you simply say 'thou shalt not'. The Walking Wounded reflect their own experiences and feelings of being betrayed rather than an all-encompassing moral standpoint.

Regarding the ability of people to learn from cheating and have positive rather than negative consequences, I do believe that my three stories in the Lue to Lucy series provide just one example.

First of all, I think you are VERY presumptuous to assume that you "know" that commenters are "walking wounded." I have only occasionally seen commenters refer to their own situations.

Second, I tried reading "Lue to Lucy," will have to try again, but from what I've seen, the only "positive" to come out of Lue's cheating is Don's acceptance of it!

 

[SimonDoom]

Once again, I'm not trying to police what stories are written or posted, simply asserting my right to score them as I see fit. No, I would NOT knock down a 5 to a 1 just because I disapproved in some way, though I doubt that I would find a story like that a 5 to begin with. I wish Lit would adopt SOL's 10 point scale. There a 10, which mathematically equates to a 5, is defined as "Most Amazing Story," which I'm sure you agree are rare. Their "Great" is a 9, which equates to 4.5, that Lit doesn't have, so I usually score "very good" AND "great" stories only 4. I reserve 5 for rare stories, like Oshaw's "Grief."

In any case, I DON'T mark down an author's other stories because I had a problem with another story.

I get the feeling that, as a practical matter, the "dispute" in this thread is more a matter of misunderstanding or miscommunication than anything. What you wrote in this post seems perfectly reasonable to me. I might disagree with your story tastes, but I believe a reader has a right to reflect his/her tastes in the story score so long as the reader isn't being unreasonably punitive or obnoxious, and it doesn't sound like you are that sort of reader. So we don't disagree.

I wonder if creating a separate category would reduce the problem. I have a feeling that the trolls would find the adulterous wife/willing husband stories wherever they are and troll them regardless.