After the punishment....

[badlilthang]

Re: After the punishment

But if you as a Dom/me are concerned about a sub who just doesn't seem to move on even after punishment, maybe that sub needs to learn how to accept forgiveness.

Can that be taught? I think to some degree yes, and its simple thing to do.

Smiles... and nods my head. i was/am one of those who beat themselves up when it comes to "failing". Then i hear people say - it is disobedience...it is easy to move on....etc.

I actually think this is too easy an answer. How can a person change her ways totally ~ just because a Dom tells her to?

i am learning how to accept the "day after" the punishment...and i am accepting myself more - but after years of being put down (childhood/teens...rather interesting mom/family)...it was easier for me to be invisible, and do the right thing always...but no matter what i did - it was never good enough. For instance coming home with a report card filled with A's..and one B. The B gave me more pride, because it was in the classes i had always struggled with.....what did my mom see? That one B...and was pissed...she never saw the A's.....so ~ now i am learning to be proud of who i am - my strength, my self value - and i am actually more and more accepting His punishment/forgiveness..and i am able to move on. Some times are harder - especially if i make the same mistake twice (small ones..but still things i should know)....and He is wonderfully patient....

i also have to chose my own punishment at times - and for me the worst punishment is to be denied His company...s...He is very inventive with His punishments, too - and they do rarely include touch-on things...but rather mentally ones...that truly makes me think...and NOT want to mess up again..

But to say it is always easy to move on...is a lie...smiles...
It takes a lot of strength to change oneself - but it is also a wonderful feeling...when you succeed...s...

darts out with a wiggle..

 

[Shadowsdream]

I am a hard nose!

I am a Domme that will not allow My submissives to wallow in guilt after a punishment if they crave My Domination.

Why bother punishing if I have to deal with a long face of self recrimination?

If My moving on past the infraction or disappointment through the doling out of punishment/correction is not honored by acceptance and appreciation then why should I waste My time?

Why not omit teaching and training?

Guilt is selfish in My opinion, if it is held onto stubbornly when already forgiven.

 

[RJMasters]

Grabs a mental paddle

I never said it was easy to move on. I said it was easy to teach the concept of accepting forgiveness.

[hypothetical] If you rejected my forgiveness, away you would go into isolation till you decided what was more important. Learning to accept my forgiveness when offered to you, or hanging onto your past failures in order to beat yourself up some more?[/hypothetical]

since... "and for me the worst punishment is to be denied His company"

I wonder how many times it would take for you to learn to eagerly accept your Dom/mes forgiveness when offered.

For me, and I am speaking only for me, rejection of my forgiveness is more times than not, a bigger act of disobedience and disappointment, than the orignal offense. Not always but most of the time.

Shakes head, throws mental paddle over shoulder leaving. nm too tired, just going to go to bed.

night

 

[Sir_Winston54]

I wonder... many of us are harsher critics of ourselves than others are or would be, and find it difficult to forgive ourselves for lapses we feel should not have occurred.

Could it be that some of those pyls who carry that guilt past their PYL's forgiveness have not yet forgiven themselves? If I remember correctly, a previous thread in this forum specifically addressed the difficulties and process of dealing with guilt, and one of those processes (and difficulties) was in learning to forgive oneself, having learned from the issue.

Perhaps those pyls have accepted their PYL's forgiveness, but have not yet given it to themselves...

Just my $.02 (US) worth... give or take a little.

 

[RJMasters]

Pretty much it

Yes I think you accurately describe the reason behind why a sub would hold onto their guilt and continue to struggle with something, even after they have been forgiven by thier Dom/me. They haven't forgiven them-selves.

Is that good? Is that healthy? Some may try to emotionally justify why one would hold on to guilt, depression, etc...and say that is ok. As I see it, they have a choice in accepting the forgiveness of their Dom/me and then to forgive themselves.

We then enter a realm of obedience and accepting wisdom and the will of the Dom/me. Especially when it is the desire and will of the Dom/me to accept these words:

"You are forgiven."

I think a Dom/me needs to take the neccessary time and give the appropriate amount of punishment to sufficiently remove any guilt. If after that has been done, and the sub still persists, she undermines His/Her authority taking back his/her gift of submission, as they obviously do not "trust" that their Dom/me knows what is best for them.

If by some reason I misjudged as a Dom/me to remove the guilt, I would prefer my sub to communicate that to me, rather than slink off and beat themselves over and over. At least then I can re-evaluatate how deeply effectied my sub is over this, and re-double my efforts to help Him/her overcome what their facing or tell them no, they need to forgive themselves.

I may understand why they do it, but I do not approve. Better to teach them how to accept forgiveness and how to forgive themselves, than to allow them to persist in misery and guilt. Being pro-active rather than re-active is key when it comes to dealing with guilt.

Your point is well taken Winston, but experience has taught me to stand my ground on this issue. Thanks

 

[soapstar]

I agree with RJs comment about giving the appropriate ammount of punishment to sufficiently remove guilt

And Im also thinking that if a person felt *not punished enough* it could possibly be indicative of a mismatch of desire/need??

 

[FreeGal]

This is a really good thread. Right now I can identify with what a lot of other subs have said.

For some reason that I can't get a handle on, I'm still beating myself up over something that happened weeks ago, which I was duly punished for two days ago. I'll get over it, eventually, but I hate the way I'm feeling right now.

I know my Dom will read this and he will tell me I'm being silly. We have talked about this, at great length, and I keep telling him I'm ok, which I am really. But, it just keeps coming back and biting me.

Somebody slap me?

 

[RJMasters]

For some reason that I can't get a handle on, I'm still beating myself up over something that happened weeks ago,

Sometimes, what we are really holding onto is not the actual event that happened or the act. Sometimes its something we see in ourselves we don't like which lead up to the act that occurred.

We focus on the recent misbehavior because it something easily to grip onto and focus on. Perhaps looking at why it happened will allow you identify something about yourself, and you can then think about ways of working on that.

Sometimes a knee-jerk reaction is just that, but sometimes if you think about it, it may give a clue to the motivation for the behvior that occurred.

I find that if you just deal with the behavior, its just like taking a pill for a cold. It dosen't really cure the cold, but just controls the symptoms. Because you are aware of this, even if it on a subconcious level, you hang onto it because deep down you know the source of the problem hasn't been addressed yet.

For me, it is not enough to know just the details of my misconduct, but to understand why or what caused the misconduct to begin with. Sometimes I find it has nothing to do with me, other times I acknowledge there is a source for the mis-behavior, and when I focus on that, I tend feel it easier to let go of past guilt over specific acts, because I am working on a cure, and not just treating the symptom.

I hope that made some sense.

 

[FungiUg]

I know that when I stuff up, I go over and over and over and over it in my head. I guess it's how I learn from my mistakes. Even years later, a memory can leap to the fore, and I will wince.

Some people are like that.

 

[FreeGal]

I hope that made some sense.

Yep, it made sense to me! Most of what you said doesn't really apply to me in this instance, as I didn't realise my insubordination was such, until after the event. I've learnt that now, though, and won't be making that mistake again.

It's a steep learning curve, but a lot of fun as well as painful at times. What's done is done, I just have to learn to accept that.

 

[RJMasters]

What's done is done, I just have to learn to accept that.

Yep yep

 

[badlilthang]

I am a Domme that will not allow My submissives to wallow in guilt after a punishment if they crave My Domination.

Guilt is selfish in My opinion, if it is held onto stubbornly when already forgiven.

i read that and simply cringed....because i truly do not believe that i am wallowing in guilt after a punishment. i take it to heart and mind what i have been told - and i do move on now...even though i feel bad inside.

i don't whine and moan and complain...saying i am such a bad subbie..i am hopeless..You are better off without me and things like that...but it is a genuine feeling of failure, and it is not a good feeling...smiles...
i can still smile and behave in a pleasing way - be a joy to the One i am around...when the punishment is over ~ though
my thoughts may still be sad - and my mind is working with it ~ because i know i messed up - to make sure i will not do that again - and to call that selfish is somewhat harsh in my eyes. Well...maybe it is not guilt i feel..maybe it is called something else....but have You really never done anything stupid, silly or hurtful - and felt bad after...even when the one You have done it against has said it is ok and forgotten?

i am human, i mess up and i also have one of those mouths that sadly speaks before my brain is engaged at times...sighs...so i have said things i did not mean/or they come out wrong...because i simply did not think first...i am impulsive by nature -

Some accepts that in a submissive...Others land on you hard the first moment you show a little independent thinking - so it is a learning process also to know what will this Dom do - if i can not handle my guilt and just let go of it the moment HE snaps His fingers and is done with it......or will He have patience enough to explain to me why it is bad to hold on to a feeling of guilt...

If a D/s relationship has been going on for a longer period of time..Tthey know Oone another well...(or should)...and then it is easier to know what to do, and how to handle things. In a new relation - it is still the unknown and the fear of rejection - so yes, i'd say i handle things differently at different times. But - when punishment has been dealt with - i am moving on. Happy that the punishment is behind me..glad that He found me worthy enough to discipline me for my mistake..and also that He cares enough - to still keep me in training...s...and not looking upon me as a lost cause..*L*...

and i talk way too much...*chuckles*..and puts my chalk down, and sits on my hands...

bad~

 

[LunarKitten]

It was brought to my attention tonight that some subs tend to dwell on wrong doings. After Master/Mistress has punished sub/slave it should be time to let go and move on but sub/slave is so upset to have disappointed Master/Mistress that they dwell on it and continue to hold onto that. Feeling sad and sorry for what they have done.

I was thinking that perhaps it is another form of disobedience in that a sub would punish themselves more than Master/Mistress already has. Would this be correct in thinking this way? How would a sub overcome these feelings? A sub works hard at pleasing their Master/Mistress and when they let Them down is the feeling of letting Master/Mistress down worse than the physical punishment? Should a sub just get over it and move on and learn from the experience?

For myself, knowing that I have let Sir down is just about worse than any punishment he could come up with. Luckily, we haven't come to that yet, but there have been times I know I've done something wrong and I do dwell on it a bit. Though my dwelling tends to be in the direction of disecting what happened and the whys and wherefors of what happened so I don't repeat it again.

Is it disobedience? Only if it has been stated directly that you are not to do it. It may be implied, but unless specifically told not to do something, I don't consider it a rule. Luckily, Sir feels the same way - if he hasn't been specific enough in his instructions, he does not think punishment for something implied is warranted.

Which leads me down the road to the whole "communication is a must in this lifestyle" speech. *which I'll skip to keep from boring people lol*

 

[LunarKitten]

I think it is important to remember that Dom/mes enjoy administering punishment. It is part of the guidance and training they bring to the relationship. If the submissive partner were perfect all the time it would become pretty boring wouldn’t it?

Implicit in SM is not only visceral energy and raw passion but growth and self discovery. They lead and we follow, we falter and are pulled back up, even if it is by the short hairs. Being punished implies being cared for, our actions have consequences, are a reflection on the teachings of the dominant. Feeling guilty for letting the Dom/me partner down is a natural response but it is more productive to think in terms of the lesson learned. Easier said than done, no?

I have to disagree with you. I don't think any Master/Dom/me enjoys punishment. They may enjoy playing very sadistically with you, but punishment is a whole other animal. The ones I know from my local groups see punishing their slave/submissive as a failure on their part.

I've know submissives who misbehave on purpose to get a spanking. Can you imagine how confused their Dominants must feel about their misbehavor? How they must wonder just what in the world it is that they are doing so wrong for their submissive to constantly misbehave?

Maybe it's just me...asking for a spanking makes it a lot easier on both parties in the relationship - of course, whether or not you get what ask for is another thing all together lol

 

[LunarKitten]

The first time I transgressed, it just about killed me to know that I disappointed Him. He told me under any circumstances was I not to dwell on what happened. He expected me to get over it, move on, and learn from my mistakes. One time, I knew I dwelled on it too long. It was an order to move on. It was over and done with. I actually punished myself over and over on top of the punishment He gave.

Maybe this is one of the things that I’m out of the loop on, but we as subs, want to please and serve our Masters to the best of our abilities.

I know I'm new to this, (and forgive my ignorance if I have this wrong) but I think Masters’ want to accomplish that, also. I know mine made mistakes, and He’d freely admit it when He did. It didn’t make me honor, serve, or love Him any less. It made me see Him as a man who could admit His mistakes. He didn’t dwell, and if I could see that He could move on, so could I.

Personally, I wouldn't want to serve someone who couldn't admit they make mistakes. If they can't be that honest with themselves, how can they be truely honest with me? If I don't think they are being honest, how can I trust them with my life and my submission?

 

[RJMasters]

i have a small disagreement here, but i am having difficulty finding words... so i'm probably going to go on a bit more than necessary... please bear with me..

to me it seems that to tell someone "you are forgiven, and I don't want to hear anything more about it"... is almost an equivalent of the "shut the fuck up" treatment.

i wish i could articulate that more clearly... it just seems to me that "accept your forgiveness and be better already" is a cheap way of denying someone their aftercare...

furthermore, if You are willing to say "and i don't want to hear another word of it," ... have You really forgiven them? in my experience, i use that line when i am unable to forgive someone in the heat of the moment, but know that i will when given a bit of space.

if that's actually the case, why not just say "i need some space now," which surely wont go over well with a wounded and needy subbie, but wont hurt nearly as much as "You disobey and dishonor me by shedding more tears," and, should said submissive fail to give You Your space, You have a legitamate example of disobedience.

Is further punishment for showing remorse really the answer?... all i can see it teaching anyone is to get better & more efficient at bottling those feelings, & when i am dominant, or in a vanilla relationship for that matter, nothing annoys me faster than a significant other who refuses to share feelings that are bothering them so obvoiusly (to me).

Also... don't You ever feel guilt Yourself? are You able to simply turn it off? if so... please share.

part of my difficulty understanding here may simply be that i probably experience guilt differently most of the time... when i feel bad about something... really bad, not breaking a plate or burning the toast, but the heart break of knowing that i have dissapointed one of my Mistresses... to say that i am hard on myself is an understatement. There are times when it gets bad enough that i genuinely hate myself, at which point i am likely to accept any amount of punishment or abuse and feel that i deserve it just by nature of my own wretchedness.

Any punishment You think you can place on someone for going through that will only reinforce it.

Perhaps You simply require Your submissives not to have self worth issues in the first place... but then why are they submissive? (thats probably covered over & over in other threads, i'm sure)

ok ok... i'm done rambling...

Ok I don't think that's the spirit here. I also don't think that this answer is given every time either in most cases probably raely given.

I think what is being over looked here is the time leading up to the punishment.

There is a whole process that happens once a misbehavior happens.

The deed is done
There is recognition that the deed was done
Incomes the guilt for the deed

Then the misdeed is communicated to the other

This is where the interaction begins. How sad it would be if the Dom/me grabbed the nearest paddle WHACK WHACK WHACK ok your punished, your forgiven. (sometimes in rare instances when the infraction was small(like burnt toast) this might be acceptable, maybe). However, what usually takes place is a period of time where the Dom/me talks with their sub about what happened. Asks questions like why they did it? Maybe even share how they are upset over it but its nothing we can work through. Perhaps a week of journaling about it or some assignnments. Ya know, to give some time and perspective.

The point is and I believe that this is the spirit in which this was written, once suffecient time and adequate punishment is given over a matter, it is time to move on and not dwell on a past wrong choice or mistake.

You make it sound as if no effort, no concern, no love was put in at all by the Dom/me before they reach that moment to say, "I forgive you".

The Dom/me might even throw a check out there and ask, how are you doing with this? You learn your lesson? Good then we can move on. If your holding anything back let me know now.

But after all that has happened, if a sub wants to hold onto their guilt, then you tell me when is enough enough? How long do you let it go on, two days, a week, how about a month or year? The point is at some point forgiveness must be given and also they need to forgive themselves.

So let's say you did 1 thing that disappoints your Mistress. She talks to your about it, you both work on it together for a day or two or maybe even a week, then she delivers the punishemnt and says I forgive you, lets forget it and move on. Are you going to hold on to your guilt and become a displeasing uneffective sub to your mistress for the next week? Are you going to let 1 infraction, create more infractions in the days to come. Shall you go on dis-appointing your Mistress day after day? Wouldn't it be better to accept her forgiveness and then free yourself to serve her and please her and be the joy in her life?

Here are two other post on this subject.

Thread on forgiveness I started:
https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=273908

A thread on Trust and honesty
look for the story 3/4 down the page title of post is
"Ok here goes..."
https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=109000&perpage=25&pagenumber=8

The second post is a bit harsh, but it really flips the tables and makes you think a little more about this. After you read that story then, come on back and let me know if you see what is being said here.

It was never my intention or anyone else intention to imply that we could snap our fingers and expect someone to forgive themselves. These comments were made after considerable effort was made to make everything right. And a little tough love for a sub who is being stubborn is not such a bad thing.

I don't think I disagree with anything you wrote in your post. Seems pretty straight forward common sense, however I do think you slightly miss interpreted the context of the post you refered to.

 

[A Desert Rose]

I am a hard nose!

I am a Domme that will not allow My submissives to wallow in guilt after a punishment if they crave My Domination.

Why bother punishing if I have to deal with a long face of self recrimination?

If My moving on past the infraction or disappointment through the doling out of punishment/correction is not honored by acceptance and appreciation then why should I waste My time?

Why not omit teaching and training?

Guilt is selfish in My opinion, if it is held onto stubbornly when already forgiven.

Yes, Ma'am, You ARE a hard nose Domme. And One that a submissive like me would appreciate. I agree that it is selfish and counter-productive to hang onto something that is over and done with.

One sincerely apologizes, accepts the consequences or punishment and moves on. Beating oneself up over and over accomplishes nothing.

I have to ask, what is gained by all this self-recrimination? The entire experience is supposed to be a learning process. What is learned by continually smacking yourself around?

 

[RJMasters]

All smiles

Well said.

I know it can be hard to forgive oneself. It is often easier to forgive another than our own shortcomings.

I like and agree about positve affirmations after the fact. For me it is my way to re-affirm my love, and at the same time make sure they're minds are clear, their eyes are bright and their hearts are good to go.

I don't mind if the sub later sits down and writes out somethings or even thinks about what happen more so as to come up with ways to prevent such behavior from re-occuring. Just do it after you move past the guilt so that it will be positive growth.

I think that being self-less is something every sub wants to be for their Dom/me. Accepting forgiveness is one way to be able to do that.

Last thought then I am threw...

I like it when subs are fighters for themselves when it comes to guilt or "re-occuring" bad behavior. A good way to deal with it is see it as the enemy that would prevent you from serving and pleasing your Dom/me. Might even say to yourself..."ok guilt, you got me this time, but your done. Master/Mistress said your no longer welcome around here so time for you to hit the bricks and don't be showing your ugly face around here no more ya hear? I got more important things to do and I am not going to take my attention away from my Master/Mistress and give it to you! You are not my Master/Mistress so amscray!"

Sounds funny, maybe even silly, but I dig a sub who knows how to show guilt to the door by the seat of its pants. Life too short to let guilt steal valuable time from the ones you love. So when the time is right and forgiveness is offered, do your best to accept it.

Life is good.