Anachronisms and other misteaks in literature

[MathGirl]

Re: Recoil

Sorry, Og - a little physics calculation will show that there's no way that firing even the broadside available on USS Missouri (9 16" guns, each firing a shell weighing one ton) could move a 45,000 ton battleship two hudred yards.

Similarly, there are no modern hand-held weapons that would knock down the holder, or for that matter knock down the person who is the target, despite what we see Sly Stallone doing.

1. I've read where the Missouri would rock thirty degrees when her battery was fired. That's a lot of iron to shift.
2. I beg to differ. I weigh between 88 and 90 pounds. I can shoot a 12 ga. autoloader at skeet very comfortably, because the gas operation takes up almost all the recoil. I fired a lightweight, bolt action 30.06 once, and it knocked me flat on my butt. And it was not because I don't know how to brace myself for recoil.
3. My grandpa flew a P47 Thunderbold fighter in WWII. A big, powerful plane, about 400mph capability. It carried eight Browning .50 cal machine guns in the wings and a 20mm cannon that fired through the prop hub. The recoil would stall the airplane unless full throttle was used. P47s were variously configured, but the above was the most common "train buster" and "armor killer" armament.
MG

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

Og,

Have you ever been downrange of an artillery piece and had a big shell fly overhead? The sound will vary, depending on the caliber of the gun, but even if it's "just" a 105 howitzer, it's a maximum "pucker factor"* moment.

Rumple Foreskin

*"Pucker Factor" - a subjective scale for quantifying the tension of any particular moment. The measuring instrument is an individual's sphincter muscle. As is well known, in times of stress, one's anus tends to instinctively tighten, or pucker. A max or 100% pucker factor would designate a period of high anxiety during which a ten-penny nail couldn't be pounded up your ass with a pneumatic drill. RF

ps: en re recoil - one of the reasons the US has been using variations of the M-16 for nearly 40 years, is it has virtually no recoil. It's so well behaved, it's easy to fire it like a pistol. Even for a big guy, any heavy recoil weapon presents a problem when it comes to making a second shot or using it for automatic fire. RF

 

[MathGirl]

Og,

Have you ever been downrange of an artillery piece and had a big shell fly overhead? The sound will vary, depending on the caliber of the gun, but even if it's "just" a 105 howitzer, it's a maximum "pucker factor"* moment.

*"Pucker Factor" - a subjective scale for quantifying the tension of any particular moment. The measuring instrument is an individual's sphincter muscle. As is well known, in times of stress, one's anus tends to instinctively tighten, or pucker.

Dear Rumple,
I've heard of varying sounds for different artillery. Supposedly the French 88mm shells of WWI were not only deadly accurate, they made a distinctive howl that elicited Teutonic sphincter spasm that was audible for a considerable distance. It would be interesting to quantify that "Pucker Factor." Recruits could be asked to 'volunteer' to have strain gauges attached to their brown eyes during high stress situations. Data could be gathered by telemetry and analyzed by computer. I can see a publication in that. Possibly a reputation to be made in certain circles.

"high anxiety during which a ten-penny nail couldn't be pounded up your ass with a pneumatic drill."

The above quote is almost poetic in its descriptive elegance.
MG

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

It would be interesting to quantify that "Pucker Factor." MG

MG,

You may be on to something. I'm getting a little long in the tooth to finally start working on a doctorate (and the world's not demanding in more Ph.d's in history) but better late than never and all that jazz. Of course, there's nothing to keep you from getting a second "phud". Maybe I can serve as yoiur lowly grad assistant.

Rumple Foreskin

 

[MathGirl]

MG,

You may be on to something. I'm getting a little long in the tooth to finally start working on a doctorate (and the world's not demanding in more Ph.d's in history) but better late than never and all that jazz. Of course, there's nothing to keep you from getting a second "phud". Maybe I can serve as yoiur lowly grad assistant.

Dear Rumple,
You had the inspiration, so you would certainly be an author (not senior, of course, because I've already selected that person). I, of course, would be involved in data collection and analysis (office), but I could see an important role for you on the more technical side; in the field. Possibly a strain gauge specialist. E.g. Attachment, removal, and maintenance.
MG

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

I could see an important role for you on the more technical side; in the field. Possibly a strain gauge specialist. E.g. Attachment, removal, and maintenance. MG

MG,

Just thinking about that position kinda leaves me breathless. How can I ever thank you? This would definitely give new meaning to the term, "shitty job."

Rumple Foreskin

 

[MathGirl]

MG,Just thinking about that position kinda leaves me breathless. How can I ever thank you? This would definitely give new meaning to the term, "shitty job."

Dear Rumple,
As they say, "Someone's gotta do it." I guess it depends how much you want your name on a publication. Many people have ... er ... stooped lower to get one.
MG
Ps. I'll bet Og wouldn't be hesitant to get his hands a little dirty for something like that.

 

[pop_54]

Re: Recoil

Sorry, Og - a little physics calculation will show that there's no way that firing even the broadside available on USS Missouri (9 16" guns, each firing a shell weighing one ton) could move a 45,000 ton battleship two hudred yards.

Similarly, there are no modern hand-held weapons that would knock down the holder, or for that matter knock down the person who is the target, despite what we see Sly Stallone doing.

______________________________________________

Please, Mister Custer, I don't want to go!

Prompted by another sixties song on another thread.

Ah but one cannot apply simple physics to an object floating in a liquid, nothing would shift a 45,000 ton ship on dry land, but float it on a reasonably calm sea and a 5 mph breeze would shift it many miles unchecked.
The shift ogg refers to is not so much the ship sliding sideways in a big lurch, but drifting 200 yds or more off course quite quickly as a result of the recoil if engine or steering correction isn't applied to compensate.
Big gun broadsides do cause big ships to rock violently in the water and do cause a certain amount of sudden sideways slip.

Not too modern, but the most violent hand held weapon of recent years was the Boyes anti tank rifle of WWII an infantry held thing that no bugger ever wanted to fire, it propelled a shell head of about 25mm with sufficient force to penetrate armour, trouble was it often left the poor bastard holding it with broken bones from a single shot fired because the designers forgot about recoil and didn't build any anti recoil technology into the thing, just a solid barrel breech and stock arrangement no recoil movement allowed for.

The worse weapon for recoil causing loss of aim I ever fired was the Stirling light machine gun, a hand held 9mm 32 shot job with a side magazine that doubled as the steady handle.
If you chose single shot it could be held one handed by the stock and behaved perfectly, if you selected multi shot it loosed off all 32 in a few seconds and pulled to the right so violently 30 of them missed if you weren't careful.

The most painful to fire, shoulder bruising wise, being my brothers old Enfield .303 sporting rifle, a variant of the Enfield military rifle with a longer barrel for hunting use, bloody thing kicked like a Mule.

pops...........

 

[MathGirl]

Re: Re: Recoil

Ah but one cannot apply simple physics to an object floating in a liquid, nothing would shift a 45,000 ton ship on dry land, but float it on a reasonably calm sea and a 5 mph breeze would shift it many miles unchecked.

Dear Pop,
I agree totally. My degree in physics is only a MSc (diluted with math, unfortunately), but I would like to see the "simple physics" involved to disprove Og's assertation. Also, I would not care to sit in a stationary canoe and fire a 12 ga. shotgun to the side. I don't have the physics to prove it, but I'll bet the moments of intertia and acceleration angles would result in getting myself damp.
MG
Ps. In extreme circumstances, propeller driven aircraft on deck were used to move an aircraft carrier in WWII. That's one big mofo to be shoved around by air.
Pps. In the days of sail propulsion, rather large masses of ship were moved rather briskly by nothing more than wind and canvas.
Ppps. I've heard the US 20mm antitank rifle was similar in recoil to the gun you mentioned. Not something you want to take out and fire a few dozen times at beer cans.
Pppps. A 30.06 is similar to a .303, but a bit friskier. You're a lot bigger than I am, so you can understand how I got knocked on my bottom.
Ppppps.Oh, dear. Please excuse me. I seem to have an attack of wind and it's producing sharp recoil. Wheeeeeeeee

 

[oggbashan]

Re: Re: Recoil

Not too modern, but the most violent hand held weapon of recent years was the Boyes anti tank rifle of WWII an infantry held thing that no bugger ever wanted to fire, it propelled a shell head of about 25mm with sufficient force to penetrate armour, trouble was it often left the poor bastard holding it with broken bones from a single shot fired because the designers forgot about recoil and didn't build any anti recoil technology into the thing, just a solid barrel breech and stock arrangement no recoil movement allowed for.

The worse weapon for recoil causing loss of aim I ever fired was the Stirling light machine gun, a hand held 9mm 32 shot job with a side magazine that doubled as the steady handle.
If you chose single shot it could be held one handed by the stock and behaved perfectly, if you selected multi shot it loosed off all 32 in a few seconds and pulled to the right so violently 30 of them missed if you weren't careful.

The most painful to fire, shoulder bruising wise, being my brothers old Enfield .303 sporting rifle, a variant of the Enfield military rifle with a longer barrel for hunting use, bloody thing kicked like a Mule.

pops...........

The Boyes anti-tank rifle did as you say but didn't have sufficient force to penetrate the armour of the German tanks it was supposed to face. The b..... thing was useless. As was the Russian anti-tank rifle of 1941. That was about 6 feet long and discarded as soon as a tank appeared.

You should have been better trained and practised more with the Enfield. Properly handled it was a sweet gun that could be fired fast and accurately as the Germans found in the opening campaign of WW1. It was a b..... in untrained hands but the soldiers of 1914 were the regulars.

Og

 

[oggbashan]

Og,

Have you ever been downrange of an artillery piece and had a big shell fly overhead? The sound will vary, depending on the caliber of the gun, but even if it's "just" a 105 howitzer, it's a maximum "pucker factor"* moment.

Rumple Foreskin

I have only been under aimed enemy fire from small arms and light mortars. The effect was the reverse of pucker factor. I have been underneath heavy artillery that was firing practice rounds. Since they were firing away from me there was no pucker factor or the reverse, just interesting doppler effects.

In WW1 the Minniewerfer (Moaning Minnie) caused pucker factor as the inbounds could be heard before they arrived.

In WW2 the Germans fitted sirens to their Stukas to induce panic in those attacked. The sound of V1 flying bombs induced pucker factor when the sound stopped because it would land and explode in seconds.

Even I don't want to conduct trials under "live" conditions.

Og

 

[ffreak]

My degree in physics is only a MSc (diluted with math, unfortunately)

Per my physics prof: "Physics is the language of science, Math is the alphabet".

 

[MathGirl]

Per my physics prof: "Physics is the language of science, Math is the alphabet".

Well then, I should be able to write a short paragraph. With the help of a smart man, of course.
MG

 

[pop_54]

Re: Re: Re: Recoil

The Boyes anti-tank rifle did as you say but didn't have sufficient force to penetrate the armour of the German tanks it was supposed to face. The b..... thing was useless. As was the Russian anti-tank rifle of 1941. That was about 6 feet long and discarded as soon as a tank appeared.

You should have been better trained and practised more with the Enfield. Properly handled it was a sweet gun that could be fired fast and accurately as the Germans found in the opening campaign of WW1. It was a b..... in untrained hands but the soldiers of 1914 were the regulars.

Og

Ah yes the military pattern Enfield was and still is a lovely stable thing, loosed of many a clip out of one with no problem if pulled a nice comfy fit into the shoulder/chest dip.
Another thing that made the Enfield so efficient is the bolt action, smooth and quick compared with a lot of bolt action weapons of the day.

But this thing my brother had was a civilian version with shortened ornate grip stock and a barrel about a couple of inches longer than the military model for improved range/acuracy with a few more twists of rifling. The added length and more awkward hold on the weapon made it a sod to calm without a bit of bruising.

Hey MG do you wear lead boots when you fire that thing of yours

 

[MathGirl]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Recoil

Hey MG do you wear lead boots when you fire that thing of yours

Dear Pop,
No, a Beretta 303 12 ga. is very nice to shoot. Stock cut to fit, and almost no recoil. That damned light .30-06 that knocked me down was definitely a one time thing for me. It's like the .303. The cartridge was designed for the '03 Springfield and used very successfully in the M1 Garand auto of WWII and Korea fame. It's when the military cartridge is used in a lightweight sporting rifle that it causes the kind of recoil that knocked me down and gave me a black and blue cheek.
MG, Rifleperson

 

[MathGirl]

Originally posted by oggbashan In WW2 the Germans fitted sirens to their Stukas to induce panic in those attacked.

Dear Og,
I should try fitting something similar (maybe a tin whistle) to my Cessna 152 and create panic in the populace. More likely to cause laughter, though.
MG

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

"I have only been under aimed enemy fire from small arms and light mortars. The effect was the reverse of pucker factor. I have been underneath heavy artillery that was firing practice rounds. Since they were firing away from me there was no pucker factor or the reverse, just interesting doppler effects." OG

With any luck, those thype of experiences are all in permanent past tense for both of us. That being the case, I'll share to high pucker factor words with you concerning friendly fire-SHORT ROUND. Those could really be a problem in damp, environments, especially jungles where the trees could create an air burst..

Speaking of noise, MG (nope, I'm not going that way) mentioned the French 88 of WW I. What do you, or anyone else, know about the German 88 of WW II? From all I've read, it was a bad mother which you didn't hear.

Rumple Foreskin

 

[MathGirl]

friendly fire-SHORT ROUND
Speaking of noise, MG (nope, I'm not going that way) mentioned the French 88 of WW I.

Dear Rumple,
I'm rather sensitive about the s-word, but I assume that's a round that is fired from your rear (pardon the term) towards the enemy but falls short onto the heads of front line troops. Sounds kind of dangerous.

I only know about the French 88 because Remarch mentioned them in "All Quiet on the Western Front," and I have that photogenic mammary. They had a characteristic howl when incoming, and the Kr... Hu.. Bo.. Germans were quite terrified of the things.
M "Short Round" G

 

[Guest]

On another note:

Another thing that made the Enfield (don't you mean English?) so efficient is the bolt action, smooth and quick compared with a lot of bolt action weapons of the day.

... shortened ornate grip stock and a barrel about a couple of inches longer ... for improved range/acuracy with a few more twists ... The added length and more awkward hold on the weapon made it a sod to calm without a bit of bruising.

Pirate man, this stuff is just too exciting for me, and all so new. Do I need the lead boots to go a few rounds with you?

Perdita

 

[oggbashan]

[BI'll share to high pucker factor words with you concerning friendly fire-SHORT ROUND. Those could really be a problem in damp, environments, especially jungles where the trees could create an air burst..

Speaking of noise, MG (nope, I'm not going that way) mentioned the French 88 of WW I. What do you, or anyone else, know about the German 88 of WW II? From all I've read, it was a bad mother which you didn't hear.

Rumple Foreskin [/B]

Friendly Fire; Blue on Blue whatever you called it still kills. In Europe after D-day the Allies had a saying:

"If the Germans bomb; the Allies take shelter. If the English bomb; the Germans take shelter. If the Americans bomb; everyone takes shelter."

The French 75 (soixante-quinze) was the more used artillery piece of WW1 but although quickfiring with a wonderful recoil mechanism was too light to do as much damage as the 88.

The German 88 of WW2 was originally a high velocity anti-aircraft gun. It was used by Rommel in the desert as an anti-tank weapon and would pierce any Allied armour right up to the end of WW11. It had an exceptionally low profile and could be easily concealed. Mounted as a self-propelled gun it was more visible but highly mobile. Some German tanks were fitted with it in the later stages of the war in Europe. Those tanks could only be dealt with by heavy artillery or more usually tank-busting aircraft.

I think that on D-day and the few days afterwards many German 88s were destroyed by naval gunfire.

Og

 

[The_Fool]

Re: Recoil

Sorry, Og - a little physics calculation will show that there's no way that firing even the broadside available on USS Missouri (9 16" guns, each firing a shell weighing one ton) could move a 45,000 ton battleship two hudred yards.

Similarly, there are no modern hand-held weapons that would knock down the holder, or for that matter knock down the person who is the target, despite what we see Sly Stallone doing.

______________________________________________

Please, Mister Custer, I don't want to go!

Prompted by another sixties song on another thread.

Have you ever hunted?

 

[pop_54]

Re: On another note:

Pirate man, this stuff is just too exciting for me, and all so new. Do I need the lead boots to go a few rounds with you?

Perdita

No darling, just hold on to your hat

 

[Guest]

Re: Re: On another note:

No darling, just hold on to your hat

I don't think I'll be wearing a hat (or much else).

Sweetheart, your PM box is full.

Puss-puss Perdita

 

[Vincent E]

Re: Recoil

Similarly, there are no modern hand-held weapons that would knock down the holder, or for that matter knock down the person who is the target, despite what we see Sly Stallone doing.

Come on, haven't you ever seen The Quick and the Dead (Worst Western Ever) where little tiny Sharon Stone shoots big bad Gene Hackman and he does a triple half gainer ass end first backflip? You mean that can't really happen? Is Hollywood lying to me - again?

All this talk of Naval Big Guns reminds me of a recent series on the History Channel about battleships called Battleships. It traced the rise and fall of battleships from the early days of wooden boats and iron men to the dreadnaughts developed before WWII, and their subsequent replacement by aircraft carriers. Odd thing is that in this day and age your average cruiser probably has enough firepower to demolish an entire city.

 

[MathGirl]

Re: Re: Recoil

a recent series on the History Channel about battleships called Battleships.
Odd thing is that in this day and age your average cruiser probably has enough firepower to demolish an entire city.

Dear VE,
1. What a daring title! Only the HChannel could get away with somthing like that.
2. From what I've read (I'm a Tom Clancy fan), the surface navy is mostly obsolete. It exists only to protect the carriers. They have the true firepower. E.g. Aircraft carrying everything from chain guns to nuclear weapons. The ultimate long range artillery.
M "Butch" G