Anonymous Feedback...why not?

[Madame Pandora]

Whew...

I'm sure glad it's not your intention to offend anyone, knotty.

As has been pointed out - the voting already is anonymous, so what's the point again? I mean other than restating the obvious and educating us all about reality?

MP

 

[Deborah]

Knotty_dude is some newbie who just has some peculiar interest in voting like I'm the fucking Pope. Can't you people smell a load of shit?

Keep voting them 1's, knotty_dude. No need to give me more, though, I'm hundreds ahead of anybody else.

 

[knotty_dude]

Ooookkaaayy, I'm only a newbie in the sense that I'm new to these message boards but I've been coming to this site for a while. I thought I could add my 2 cents worth to the boards here. Deborah, you imply I vote everyone a 1. I have my own standards on which someone gets a 5, 3, or a 1 vote from me. I don't have really any kind of "peculiar interest" in voting, I'm just saying there's good reason for anonymous feedback for voting.

 

[DarlingBri]

One readers opinion

Well, here's a very unpopular view, but it's one reader's perspective.

I *always* send feedback anonymously. Why? Several reasons. This is an erotica site, and I prefer to keep knowledge about what *specific* stories appeal to me to myself. If I know the author of the story, that inclination doubles. Authors can post under any name they want, I don't think reader privacy is too much to ask. I want mine.

Also, I am one of those "this story would be much more effective if you fixed the grammer, spelling and punctuation" people. I do that to be helpful. I don't want the author emailing me back to say "Yeah, but what did you think of the story?" It avoids my having to say "not much" or giving a gently worded criticism.

Finally, I just don't want to enter into extended dialogue with an author about their story. I don't have the time, and I don't have the interest.

Voting. I do vote. You took the time to write it, I can take the time to vote. I give 1's, 5's, and everything in between. I give 1's when the story is a mess in terms of mechanics. You can have the best story in the world, but if you can't properly format your dialogue, find an editor. There are so many people here willing to help! Lit authors are so lucky in this respect. Really, hats off to the editors.

But I would be happy to explain why I gave a 1 if the pop-up box prompting me to, as someone suggested, actually appeared. I would not do that if I had to identify myself.

I do not vote maliciously, so I can't speak to that issue.

I'm sorry if I haven't couched these opinions more softly, but that is how I feel.

[Edited by DarlingBri on 04-07-2001 at 12:05 PM]

 

[Deborah]

I'm not IMPLYING anything, knotty_dude. I'm SAYING you are trying to baffle 'em with bullshit because you have an AGENDA. You have some REASON for sniping away here like you did other than just some passing interest. And I wonder what that could be?

Like you, knotty_dude, I'm entitled to MY opinion and that's it.

 

[Mickie]

Everyone who has ever given a 1 --

Have you ever actually sent a reason anonymous or otherwise about WHY you gave a story a 1? Have you ever listed any reason directly to the author aside from telling him/her that the story was crap? Until someone can actually give me a legitimate opinion with backing that has something to do with the story, I'm going to continue to ignore the lower scores. Anyone out there have the GUTS to let the authors know what it is that they're doing wrong?

"Just didn't grab me," is a cop out. How about -- "I really didn't like the main character. She/he was spineless." Or something like that. What is it about people? Can't they back up their own opinions? Or is it too much to ask that they use their little minds for once.

Thanks. I just had my own little rant. Chuckle. Mick

 

[DarlingBri]

Yes to all of the above. I've given the exact feedback you just detailed. I'm not spineless, nor am I mindless.

Thank you very little, you're welcome not at all.

 

[Laurel]

I think one thing we all need to remember is that readers come here to read and relax, not to give literary criticism. Not all readers are capable of giving the specific criticism you'd like - they just know that they didn't like the story and that's that. If you want specific criticism from someone who's sensitive to the subtleties of grammar, characterization, and plot, I'd suggest you find a competent editor or editors and have them look it over. If you're interested in what Joe & Jane Blow think of your story, pay close attention to the votes and the reader feedback you receive.

Remember: your audience is not the Pulitzer committee. There's a wide array of ages, educational levels, interests, ethnicities, etc. This does not make them 'stupid' - it makes them human.

As someone who has access to the back end of the site, I can tell you that 1's are not that common - I'd say they're the least common score given, though that assessment is based on a cursory glance through the numbers. I think most people have to REALLY dislike a story to 1 it.

And I'll stress, again, that votes are an imperfect form of feedback. Like I said, readers come here to read & relax, not to be quizzed & tested & surveyed. Our goal is to make as many avenues of feedback open to the reader as possible without making the reader feel like he or she is being interrogated. We don't pop consoles on voters asking for more feedback because that would discourage people from voting. Generally if a reader has something to say, they'll do so via the Anonymous Feedback or unanonymously through the author's direct email.

We instituted the voting system by request of the authors - the same reason we instituted the Anonymous Feedback, the Author's Hangout forum, the Story Feedback forum, and other methods of feedback. We didn't put it in place thinking, "Now the authors will REALLY find out what their story is worth!" If I were a writer, I'd listen to all the feedback, mull it over, and take from it what I think will improve my writing - leaving the anomalous 1 votes and "You Suck!" emails in the garbage.

 

[christo]

True enough

In a post on another thread I vented because someone just went and gave me 1's on every single one of my stories, did a total Pearl Harbor job on me. I was infuriated, homicidal, bloodlust rising, etc...

But Laurel's right, this isn't voting for the National Book Award, and we can't enlist the FBI in tracking down people who give low votes and interrogating them to find out what their intent was. If someone wants to give a one, that's their right. Just the same as if an author decides to give himself a 5, something I may have done once or twice...

I think when the "times read" counters come online that will give writers another way to judge how people view their work, a number that really can't be skewed by one bastard voter.

So we have to take the bitter with the sweet, listen to the readers good enough to write, accept the votes as they come in, revel in how many people are reading our stories.

I'd still like to kick the bastard who zapped me in the beanbag, tho.

 

[Madame Pandora]

Just a couple things:

1. Usually the positive feedback I get isn't very constructive, either. It's usually like "Wow...this got me off." Or "I really liked this story." I don't expect more from a negative feedback. 90% of the stuff you get is just going to be fluff. A nice nod, or a shot. As writers we'd all like more, but the readers have no obligation to provide it. You take what you get.

2. Fan letters...hate mail, etc. I, for one, have never asked a reader for more insight, unless they offered to do so, or seemed eager to comment and piqued my interest. I have also always responded with a nice "thank you for your comments/insight" note and ended it there. I've found that more READERS want to start a relationship with WRITERS than vice-versa. Especially female authors.

3. Just to clarify something - I have NEVER thought that readers should have access to who votes and what they voted. My only suggestion (which Laurel has addressed the other side of) was to require people to LOG IN in order to vote. Once logged in, I would certainly expect them to be able to choose to remain anonymous in their voting, should they want to. My suggestion was merely to make it so that you get one vote per handle. But, I see how nutcases would just generate multiple handles and email addresses too.

4. I could care less about the "feedback" offered by numbers. In my case it became moot a long time ago. The numbers game to me is merely about exposure on the site. Maybe it's a silly issue to focus on. Maybe the "times viewed" feature will prove me wrong. But, I think stories on the "Top Lists" get more hits, and thus, more readers. It bothers me to get low votes because I think it cuts back on the number of people who will be exposed to the possibility of reading one of my stories. And, frankly, it irritates me to see any system manipulated.

5. Deb - I realized the same thing after I entered into the discussion. Oh well...so I fell for another one

MP

 

[Laurel]

Just to clarify something - I have NEVER thought that readers should have access to who votes and what they voted. My only suggestion (which Laurel has addressed the other side of) was to require people to LOG IN in order to vote. Once logged in, I would certainly expect them to be able to choose to remain anonymous in their voting, should they want to. My suggestion was merely to make it so that you get one vote per handle. But, I see how nutcases would just generate multiple handles and email addresses too.

A while back, we mentioned that we were working on a system by which Members votes would be tracked separately from non-member votes. Unfortunately, this has proved much more complicated than we first thought. Making sure that all users stay cookie'd so their votes count towards the Members section is not a simple thing, 'cause everyone has different computers with different operating systems and browsers and so forth. We're still working on it, but we haven't yet found a satisfactory setup. Once we do, only member votes will count toward contests (assuming there's enough of them to matter).

However, if it's another member that's 1'ing you, this system won't change anything in that regard. The current system is really good about eliminating duplicate votes and other forms of fraud, but there's no way to filter out the assholes. If I could make a 99% effective asshole filter, I'd be out buying that island in the Pacific I've had my eye on.

But, I think stories on the "Top Lists" get more hits, and thus, more readers. It bothers me to get low votes because I think it cuts back on the number of people who will be exposed to the possibility of reading one of my stories. And, frankly, it irritates me to see any system manipulated.

Me too. From what I've seen in the stats and from talking to readers, there seems to be three main ways people navigate the site in search of stories that interest them: 1) the New stories list (most stories on the site get the majority of their votes in their first week onsite); 2) searching through specific categories; and 3) the use of our Search feature.

This is why keywords with your stories are VERY IMPORTANT. That keyword field is the first place the Search function uses when a member does a search. When you submit your story, place 4-8 keywords that pertain to your story in the keyword field. For example, if your story is about a dad and daughter who engage in anal and oral sex, a good keyword list would be something like:
anal, oral, bj, blowjob, dad, father, daughter, family
Titles of stories are very important (make them interesting), and story descriptions are important, but relevent keywords is yet another way to bring readers to your work.

 

[Mickie]

I have to agree with Laurel in pricipal. Voters are not here to become literary critics. They read this stuff to relax and enjoy. In reality, I want to know why someone dislikes something I created. It's rejection, and it FEELS personal, even if it isn't.

To DarlingBri and all those like him -- I apologize. If you take the time to make a comment, good or bad, I appreciate it.

To those who give 1's and give no reason, I'll still ignore the score and keep writing.

Mick

 

[knotty_dude]

Yeah Deb, that's it. I'm on a mission to piss people off like yourself.

"Yippee-kai-yay-mother-f**ker" - John McClain (Bruce Willis)

 

[Madame Pandora]

I'm always amazed at the number of Guests and Virgins who know immediately to refer to her as "Deb."

Must be one of those innate abilities. Like how even hatchlings will run away from the shadow of a chicken hawk.

MP

 

[Laurel]

I have to agree with Laurel in pricipal. Voters are not here to become literary critics. They read this stuff to relax and enjoy. In reality, I want to know why someone dislikes something I created. It's rejection, and it FEELS personal, even if it isn't.

Of course it does! To put your art out for the public and have anyone so much as sneer at it is a blow. My hat's off to all of you writers for having the personal strength to make your work public. I really want to find a way to balance the needs of the writer with the needs of the reader. Writers need an audience, so I want readers to feel comfortable coming here and reading and giving feedback to whatever extent they are able.

At the same time, I want to cultivate programs like the Volunteer Editor's thingy that bring writers in contact with readers who are willing to give more substantive feedback on their work. I want to expand our resources area. I want to provide writers with the tools they need to become better writers, because better written stories attract more readers, which in turn benefits the writers, and it spirals (hopefully) upward.

It's tricky. I've never done anything like this site before. We'll see how it goes...

 

[christo]

Story Discussion Circle

As posted by Laurel:

At the same time, I want to cultivate programs like the Volunteer Editor's thingy that bring writers in contact with readers who are willing to give more substantive feedback on their work. I want to expand our resources area. I want to provide writers with the tools they need to become better writers, because better written stories attract more readers, which in turn benefits the writers, and it spirals (hopefully) upward.


That's also the purpose of the Story Discussion Circle that Weird Harold and I are the moderators for. A story is selected, and we discuss what about it was good, what might have been better, and hopefully everyone learns something that they can take back to their own writing. If you haven't checked it out please do; we're probably going to change the way we select stories so we get more of the best of Literotica up for discussion. Hope folks will join in!

 

[Deborah]

Hey knotty_dude, I got a new story entitled "Ball Two" which will likely be posted tonight or tomorrow night. Get ready now. I really want to rack up the 1's on this one.

Let's see if we can't beat my previous record which is 50 plus 1's for one story. I'm shooting for 100 1's. You can do it!

Hey Nitelight and Ambrosious, don't be giving me a 5 or anything just because this is a baseball story about your fav teams, the Mets and Braves. I want the fucking 1's!

 

[knotty_dude]

Gee, I didn't know nicknames were that amazing, and I'm pretty sure everyone started off as a newbie or virgin, believe it or not! Truth is stranger than fiction! Seems like in this message board there's a goal to knock others down so others can inflate their already over-exaggerated egos! Sad, sad, sad...but whom am I judge? So Deb and Pandy, back off, read my very 1st post, that's all I really had to say, kapeesh? It seems very hypocritical of both of you to attack people in the message boards yet you bitch and moan about people giving your stories votes of one. Geez Louise!

 

[Deborah]

Hey knotty_dude, when did we all become such fast fucking friends that you call me Deb and her Pandy? I don't even call her Pandy. I call her Dave.

I love the 1's knotty_dude, you are confused. Gimme, gimme gimme. They turn me on. I love it that some snot sucking sleeze like you has nothing better to do but pound away 1's on me and others you no like. Are you Polish? (That's the John Rocker in me speaking, who I play in my soon to be posted new story 'Ball Two' which definitely WANTS 1's. Can I plug or what? No pun intended.)

What I said, knotty_dude, you are some newbie like I am the fucking Pope. Doh!

 

[KillerMuffin]

It's, um, capice. It's Italian.