Any other writers with aphantasia?

[ElectricBlue]

Stephen Wiltshire

Yes, that's the guy I was thinking of.

 

[XerXesXu]

Memory or visual recall, either way it's not a "usual" way of perceiving and recalling visual input. Are you suggesting that just anyone could do it, like little old you or me?

A/phantasia and the ability to remember are different cognitive phenomena. Aphantasiscs and hyperphantasics both have memory abilities spread over a bell curve (bog standard diversity, just like height or weight) all the way from exceptional memory to very poor memory with most people tending towards the mean. The issue is, when I 'know' and you 'visualise' are we describing the same subjective experience differently. I can't know what you experience, and you can't know what I experience. I do recall from a recent exchange on another thread that my memory is still rather more acute than yours, I didn't have to visualise, I just knew.

 

[intim8]

I suspect there might be a correlation between neurotypical = visual and neurodiverse = non-visual, but I don't think it's automatically one-for-one.

My case would counter that.

 

[intim8]

There is no known case of 'photographic memory'. That's the stuff of fiction, 'The 39 Steps', and even Mr Memory could only remember an arithmetric formula no more difficult than most of us remember for school exams - and 60 years later. So far as objective measures of Hyperphantasics v Aphantasics are concerned, the later make far fewer memory errors than the former.

Yeah, I don't know that my memory is any better than most people's. But it is mostly visual. Like the windows in a building thing, it's probably not that I'm storing a jpg of the building. More like I'm remembering the general shape of the building and pattern of the windows, and my gpu is constructing the image. But I experience the memory visually, and can count the windows.

 

[intim8]

What about the guy who can see a view of a city for maybe ten minutes, then go off to a room and spend days drawing a vividly accurate line rendition of the view point? His visual recall won't be using mnemonics, because he's drawing, not reciting numbers or words.

There's plenty of visual mnemonics people can use, though there is probably a different term for them.

For me, they're mostly in the form of geometric or organic patterns that can be combined in various ways to make larger patterns.

 

[intim8]

. The issue is, when I 'know' and you 'visualise' are we describing the same subjective experience differently

I doubt that it is just a semantic difference of how to describe it, depending on how you want to characterize "subjective experience". The visuals I get, from memory or from a mental model of something used for understanding, are very clear and real to me. Though again, not in my eyes, just in the part of my brain that processes the signals my eyes send it. If others were experiencing it that way, there would be no reason not to describe it as such.

My brain can distinguish between internally generated visuals and those coming from my eyes. Hallucination seems to be basically just not being able to distinguish them. Auditory works in a similar way for me, and I have had auditory hallucinations

 

[intim8]

For people really interested in this kind of stuff, I highly recommend the book "Origin of consciousness in the breakdown of the bicameral mind" by Julian Jaynes.

It's a crank philosophical/ psychological theory that he provides evidence for that is anecdotal, superficial, cherry-picked, and well-researched, but it is a fascinating hypothesis that would explain a lot of things if true.

It's probably not true, or at best, only a part of the truth, but either way, it does have some insight into how the brain works that does seem to track with reality. And it has inspired at least one legendary novel that incorporated the ideas.

 

[AG31]

I mildly object on the grounds that it implies having inner visuals is the default, the normal. Maybe it is true for the vast majority of people, but maybe not. It is for me, in the extreme, but I could be the wierd one.

I have seen stats that suggest that having inner vision is the norm.

 

[AG31]

I doubt that it is just a semantic difference of how to describe it, depending on how you want to characterize "subjective experience". The visuals I get, from memory or from a mental model of something used for understanding, are very clear and real to me. Though again, not in my eyes, just in the part of my brain that processes the signals my eyes send it. If others were experiencing it that way, there would be no reason not to describe it as such.

My brain can distinguish between internally generated visuals and those coming from my eyes. Hallucination seems to be basically just not being able to distinguish them. Auditory works in a similar way for me, and I have had auditory hallucinations

I have had two or three experiences of visual imagery, quite vivid, but very brief. So I know the difference absolutely. Very different.

 

[AG31]

The wonder to me is that we're so similar in how we think and interact given that our brains are fancy porridge with electricity in it.

Hear, hear!!!! Here, here!!! (????)

 

[AlexBailey]

My guess would be that neurodivergent includes both hyper-visual and hypo-visual, but whether one or the other dominates I'm less certain. Certainly face-blindness seems to be common with autism.

I’ve been reading a bit on line about hypo and hyper visual extremes and how both can contribute to attention deficit disorder, mostly from non scientific anecdotal sources..

Hypo can contribute to ADD by making someone’s mind work overtime trying to store memories or to process information that isn’t presented in a way they are ‘wired’ to absorb or process.

Hyper can contribute to ADD by flooding the mind with visualizations that aren’t necessarily representative of reality - not necessarily hallucinations, more just distractions.

A lot of this is resonating with me. My version of dyslexia with reading and writing is a lot like autocorrect gone wild - my mind tries to fill in the next word and often gets it wrong. The exception is when reading or studying novel information. If it’s rich with new and important details it seems to engage enough of my circus train of though that I can focus deeply on the subject, absorbing new information and understanding how it relates to every imaginable situation. In early grades I was a kid who could barely read but I could beat everyone, even the school staff at chess. Sciences were easy but repetitive math study was exhausting. I could understand the formulas but doing the rote exercises let my mind drift. While doing long division the brackets become wrought iron fences separating gardens of flowers.

I’m curious:
Tereh’s taht tnhig wehre a mnid can sltil fletnuly raed wehn the lteetrs of wodrs hvae been jbmlued as lnog as fsirt and lsat lttrees are in the ccreort pelaces. Is taht mroe clhnalgenig for pelpoe wtih athaspisna? (I suspect it helps complicate my hyper visual dyslexia.)

​

 

[intim8]

Tereh’s taht tnhig wehre a mnid can sltil fletnuly raed wehn the lteetrs of wodrs hvae been jbmlued as lnog as fsirt and lsat lttrees are in the ccreort pelaces. Is taht mroe clhnalgenig for pelpoe wtih athaspisna? (I suspect it helps complicate my dyslexia.)

It was readable for me, but I had to slow down to about 70% speed to do it. I'm on the hyperphantasia end of it.

I read by seeing whole words (I suspect most people do), so this was like seeing a blurred picture.

 

[AlexBailey]

It was readable for me, but I had to slow down to about 70% speed to do it. I'm on the hyperphantasia end of it.

I read by seeing whole words (I suspect most people do), so this was like seeing a blurred picture.

I’m a slow reader. When I try to speed up it becomes unreliable.

Editing my own writing is nearly impossible unless I let it sit for a day or two. There’s something about sharing a written draft with someone else that also allows me to read it more objectively, even if I don’t know if they’ve read it yet. I even go back to edit most of my forum posts. I often think I’ve got everything right then once I post go back and can see glaring mistakes - missing words, unfinished sentences…

 

[intim8]

There’s something about sharing a written draft with someone else that also allows me to read it more objectively,

Yeah, I get that too. I fake it a lot, pretend I'm about to show it to some specific person, then try to read it as if from their POV. It's about reading it without the mental model you've created in your head that fills in blanks, etc. Also about trying to keep in mind other people's sensibilities and biases, etc.

 

[AG31]

Tereh’s taht tnhig wehre a mnid can sltil fletnuly raed wehn the lteetrs of wodrs hvae been jbmlued as lnog as fsirt and lsat lttrees are in the ccreort pelaces. Is taht mroe clhnalgenig for pelpoe wtih athaspisna? (I suspect it helps complicate my hyper visual dyslexia.)

I could read this pretty easily. I keep a record of changes I experience associated with aging, and one of them is experiential proof of what I've been told, that we don't necessarily read the whole word. A few times a week (and I'm always reading when not doing something else) I find that a sentence doesn't make sense. I re-read it and discover that I've substituted a completely different word, one with a similar shape and always starting with the same letter. That didn't happen to me until a few years ago.

I'm almost completely aphantasic. I'm not sure I see a connection between how one reads and this condition. My son, who is completely aphantasic, and my husband, who is very visual, are both slow readers. I've been a very fast reader up until a few years ago.

 

[AG31]

To those of you who say you are highly visual, @intim8, @ElectricBlue, @SimonDoom, @TheLobster. @lovecraft68, @Erozetta, @AlexBailey, @Agent0069, @stickygirl, @Kumquatqueen, and to any other visualizers who'd like to hime in.

Are there things you think about that are not accompanied by images?

What do you "see" if anything when you think about FREEDOM (already answered by some), ABSTRACT, VERY, ABSTRACTION?

 

[AlexBailey]

To those of you who say you are highly visual, @intim8, @ElectricBlue, @SimonDoom, @TheLobster. @lovecraft68, @Erozetta, @AlexBailey, @Agent0069, @stickygirl, @Kumquatqueen, and to any other visualizers who'd like to hime in.

Are there things you think about that are not accompanied by images?

What do you "see" if anything when you think about FREEDOM (already answered by some), ABSTRACT, VERY, ABSTRACTION?

Lol. For “freedom” the first thing I get is a media influenced picture of “amber waves of grain.”

Beyond that it’s a feeling and sense of comfort that brings to mind hues and textures like a wilderness landscape but without any defined scenery. It’s probably influenced by my hiking experiences in the mountains of California and Colorado - lots of blues, greens, grays, with other flecks of colors and an aural effect I could describe as the “om” of all existence.

For the word “Abstract” I get a picture of shifting shapes in a fog.

For “very” I get a feeling of a push and a vague picture of arrows pointing in a direction like what comic illustrators may use to indicate motion.

The word “Abstraction” brings to mind art pieces I’ve seen that I’d describe as being like the stylized furniture from a Tim Burton movie - the original Beetlejuice perhaps?

 

[TheLobster]

To those of you who say you are highly visual, @intim8, @ElectricBlue, @SimonDoom, @TheLobster. @lovecraft68, @Erozetta, @AlexBailey, @Agent0069, @stickygirl, @Kumquatqueen, and to any other visualizers who'd like to hime in.

Are there things you think about that are not accompanied by images?

What do you "see" if anything when you think about FREEDOM (already answered by some), ABSTRACT, VERY, ABSTRACTION?

This is quite interesting for me, possibly more than for the others, because there is an extra layer that comes into play here. Surprisingly, though, it makes it easier for me to spot the general pattern.

Basically, in pretty much every case, the image that each concept evokes in my mind is essentially the context in which I've heard the word for the "first" time (or one of the first), or the context in which I've been hearing it most often. Notice I said "word"; those contexts are mentioned are different depending on whether we're talking about the English word or its equivalent in my native language.

English!"freedom," for example, makes me think of rolling plains and flying through a beautiful mountain range. Native!"freedom," on the other hand, brings to mind scenes of fighting, warfare, and that famous painting by Delacroix. I'm pretty sure it is directly related with my nation's turbulent history and how much I've been hearing about it at school.

"Abstraction" is similar. The context for English is my professional work where it's a common part of the jargon ("abstraction layers" in particular). The context for native is abstract art for the adjective form and advanced math (particularly linear algebra) for the noun.

"Very" is just blank. In isolation, it means nothing. I might force some vague association with the color red if I think about it a bit more, but at that point my mind wanders to the related concept of "extreme" or "intense," which are just a hair away from "heat."

I think the bottom line is that there is some kind of uneasy discomfort that my mind runs into when pondering "imageless" concepts, and it tries to associate them with something visible as quickly as possible. Memories are apparently the low-hanging fruit, hence the immediate jumps to past events and situations when the concept was used or exercised in practice.

 

[SimonDoom]

To those of you who say you are highly visual, @intim8, @ElectricBlue, @SimonDoom, @TheLobster. @lovecraft68, @Erozetta, @AlexBailey, @Agent0069, @stickygirl, @Kumquatqueen, and to any other visualizers who'd like to hime in.

Are there things you think about that are not accompanied by images?

What do you "see" if anything when you think about FREEDOM (already answered by some), ABSTRACT, VERY, ABSTRACTION?

I don't necessarily picture something in my mind when I think of an abstraction. I don't have a mental picture for the word "freedom."

I do have mental pictures for people and things.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Hear, hear!!!! Here, here!!! (????)

It's hear, hear. It's from the UK Parliament, when a member would make a speech, and his colleagues would say, "Hear, hear," meaning, this fellow has something good to say.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I think the bottom line is that there is some kind of uneasy discomfort that my mind runs into when pondering "imageless" concepts, and it tries to associate them with something visible as quickly as possible. Memories are apparently the low-hanging fruit, hence the immediate jumps to past events and situations when the concept was used or exercised in practice.

I'm similar, I think. "Abstraction", for example, immediately conjures a Kandinsky piece of art in my mind, or Rothko, someone like that - I'm very art oriented. "Very" conjures up not much, nothing visual, which probably explains why I don't use it to amplify anything in my prose.

This reminds me of the day when I forgot what "the" meant, when writing an essay that was late, up against a deadline. I didn't know how to spell it, nor how to use it in a sentence, nor what it meant. The weirdest thin, but fine the next day. Strange things, words and their meanings.

 

[AG31]

Here's a companion question to the one I posed to visualizers. To aphantasics, @ICantLeafYou, @ShelbyDawn57, @Omenainen, @Bramblethorn, @joy_of_cooking, and all others who want to chime in.

What goes on in your brain when you think about freedom, abstract, very and abstraction?

I'll go first.

My mind very quickly goes to a dictionary type definition, but since I was challenged (by me) to reflect on it, I realized that there's a somatic response first. All of these "feelings" are almost undetectable.

freedom - I "feel" a sense of expansiveness.

abstract - I "feel" a kind of flatness, emptiness

very - my body tenses up a bit. That leads straight to the dictionary "intense."

abstraction - My thoughts go straight to the idea of abstract paintings.

 

[Omenainen]

I’m curious:
Tereh’s taht tnhig wehre a mnid can sltil fletnuly raed wehn the lteetrs of wodrs hvae been jbmlued as lnog as fsirt and lsat lttrees are in the ccreort pelaces. Is taht mroe clhnalgenig for pelpoe wtih athaspisna?

This is easily readable for me. Some words are a bit more difficult than others and I wouldn’t have understood “aphantasia” outside the context of this thread.

 

[ICantLeafYou]

I’m curious:
Tereh’s taht tnhig wehre a mnid can sltil fletnuly raed wehn the lteetrs of wodrs hvae been jbmlued as lnog as fsirt and lsat lttrees are in the ccreort pelaces. Is taht mroe clhnalgenig for pelpoe wtih athaspisna? (I suspect it helps complicate my hyper visual dyslexia.)

I have no problem at all reading text like that.

 

[stickygirl]

To those of you who say you are highly visual, @intim8, @ElectricBlue, @SimonDoom, @TheLobster. @lovecraft68, @Erozetta, @AlexBailey, @Agent0069, @stickygirl, @Kumquatqueen, and to any other visualizers who'd like to hime in.

Are there things you think about that are not accompanied by images?

What do you "see" if anything when you think about FREEDOM (already answered by some), ABSTRACT, VERY, ABSTRACTION?

"Freedom"? I see Mel Gibson with blue make up and a dreadful Scots accent.

I can't think of any specific examples of non-visual associations, but they might occur alongside them. For example if someone mentions paper-cut, I think immediately of that stinging sensation before the thoughts ripple out into images.