Are there subs who desire "punishment?"
- Thread starter MissTaken
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RisiaSkye
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Glad to hear it. I'm kinda private about our life together, so I don't often post the details. Glad to know it was useful to do so in this case.P. B. Walker said:
LOL. That's exactly what I thought, and it wasn't easy to do--nor, I imagine, to take.
P. B. Walker
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WriterDom said:
Yeah I know what you mean... anywhere but the balls...
but.. in a way.. I think it's like you have to go thru the hell to feel cleansed. I've never had a Domme, nor am I even sure I'm sub material.... I'm not actually sure I fall into the Dom category either.. .but that's anther story. I have gone thru something similar to this in the sports world. No.. not recieving pain, but having to go thru what I felt was hell. In the end... I truely did feel cleansed. I think going thru an ordeal such as the one Risia descibed can be beneficial to anyone in the right circumstances.
PBW
artful
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PUNISHMENT
Mental anguish, physical pain, the combining of the two. How much is enough, not enough...or too much?
Decisions, decisions, decisions! How difficult it must REALLY be, to be a 'switch' in a live-in household.
MissT,...the postings on your thread alone, have given me enough to chew on forever. What a great thread. I wish I could contribute some insight that would be valuable, but alas, I can't.
Just wanted to post and let ALL the contributors know they are being read and listened to, with much respect. Please continue!
Mental anguish, physical pain, the combining of the two. How much is enough, not enough...or too much?
Decisions, decisions, decisions! How difficult it must REALLY be, to be a 'switch' in a live-in household.
MissT,...the postings on your thread alone, have given me enough to chew on forever. What a great thread. I wish I could contribute some insight that would be valuable, but alas, I can't.
Just wanted to post and let ALL the contributors know they are being read and listened to, with much respect. Please continue!
an article I wrote on the difference . . .
Discipline has many meanings. The literal meaning was taken from the word disciple, meaning, "a follower, one who takes another as a teacher [therefore, if she is your disciple, you will teach her (discipline her)]." The definition of discipline I use is: "Training intended to produce a specified character or pattern of behavior." And when training is complete, this third definition of discipline is what you have; "a state of order based on submission to rules and authority."
I have noticed that in chat/online most people seem to believe that discipline is the same as punishment. In my opinion, the main difference between discipline and punishment is that discipline uses training methods that closely correlate to the misbehavior, whereas punishment is arbitrary, involves no training methods, and does not have to 'fit the crime.'
I assume their view of discipline is based on this fourth definition of discipline: "punishment intended to correct or train." This, I believe, is an acceptable use of the word discipline if one is thinking of having a submissive stick her tongue to a bar of soap to curb her bad language. If this is done when the bad language is uttered, this form of punishment could be said to correct or train. If, however, the punishment for bad language is a spanking, since there is no correlation to the misbehavior and the punishment used to correct it, it is not training nor correction.
If we substitute the word punishment for discipline (in the above situation), then this makes more sense. Punishment is a "penalty for wrongdoing." It does not necessarily have to fit the crime. Punishment can be arbitrary, determined by whim. A domme can impose any punishment she chooses for any misbehavior (although this needs to be set forth from the beginning so that the submissive knows what she is risking with misbehavior). But this is not discipline, it is not used to train the submissive, it is used to punish her.
Let me offer an example of discipline and then some of punishment to illustrate my point. Suppose you want your submissive to focus more on your sexual needs than her own. You wouldn't spank her for being aroused would you? Would you send her to the corner for being horny? Of course you wouldn't, not if your goal is to teach her discipline/train her to focus her sexual energy into meeting your sexual needs and not her own.
A method I would suggest for teaching self-discipline is positive reinforcement. When she is aroused and thinking of her own sexual needs you would have her pleasure you in some sexual manner. She is not allowed orgasm; her pleasure will come in the form of her satisfying her need to please you. You can tease her a bit, get a little rough with her, and keep her excited by your comments or expressions of pleasure (this will satisfy her need for control). After you are satisfied, be affectionate with her. Tell her what a wonderful "girl" she is, and how much she has pleased you. Snuggle her close to you and fall asleep this way (this will meet her needs to feel special and cared for). In this way, she will eventually feel her sexual arousal as a need to worship your body. This is discipline (training).
Punishment will make her feel bad about herself, afraid of you, or resentful. Now that I have made some people angry, let me say that I understand that this may not be what you intend to use it for, but this is the effect. An example of punishment might be spanking/whipping your submissive because she used unacceptable language. Now remember this is punishment, not S/m play, this cannot be fun for either of you for it to be real punishment. It must not be something she likes (does she like being spanked? If she does, this is not punishment, it is play). If this is something either of you likes, you are reinforcing the bad behavior rather than curbing it. If she likes being spanked, she will use this language whenever she wants you to spank her. If she doesn't like to be spanked, she is now in a position that is teetering on abuse.
We defend our playstyle and our lifestyle with the Safe, Sane, and Consensual credo. We do this because we are aware that without consent, the physical aspects of our play are simply abuse. If the submissive isn't aroused by intense sensation (pain), then we can not use it, unless she has consented to it. Why would someone consent to something she does not like? If she is submissive, she could very well consent to it to please her dominant, but is it safe and sane? If she is allowing you to do something to her that she does not like at all, especially something that causes pain, she is creating a confusing conflict in her own mind. This conflict is perfect for triggering memories of past pain and abuse. There is nothing safe or sane about this. You are putting your submissive in emotional danger by requesting that she accept physical pain that she does not enjoy. You could easily find yourself dealing with some serious emotional fallout, possibly so serious, that you will not be equipped to handle it adequately. Is this risk of emotional pain and trauma worth it -- just because you want the power to punish her?
Exactly what does punishment do for you or your submissive? How does it benefit you? The allure, I think, is control; ultimate control. For a dominant to feel that she has so much control over another human being that she can even strike this person (and not risk retaliation) to show her disapproval is a heady feeling. But people, this is fantasy stuff. This is like the fantasy of having your submissive live in a cage in your basement. It is hot, arousing, and fills you with a feeling of exquisite power, but it is not realistic.
Spanking for mutual pleasure (you can pretend the she is actually being punished) can be wonderfully fulfilling if you have these fantasies of ultimate control. They work quite well in scene. They cannot, however, be translated into reality. Punishing an adult simply does not work. There is too much mental resistance to it in the adult mind. Even if she consents to it and means for it to be effective, it rarely 'takes.' The same punishment is needed again and again and as it continues to be administered, your submissive becomes more and more emotionally damaged by it. Self-esteem is damaged as she internalizes her 'badness'. This is not a loving, mutually uplifting relationship in which each partner grows and becomes her better self.
Mental punishment is no more effective than physical punishment. Using the 'silent treatment,' pouting, avoidance, and withholding sex all create resentment or the pain of rejection when used as punishment. These feelings eat at the foundation of your relationship; they are silent destroyers of love. These punishments will not alter your partner's behavior because they do not motivate. Adults change themselves because they are motivated to do so.
Positive reinforcement motivates, negative reinforcement does not. When adults are confronted with pain or unpleasantness, they simply find ways to avoid this feeling, even if that means avoiding the person doling out the unpleasantness. Do you avoid people who nag at you, even if they have your best interests at heart?
If negative reinforcement worked, then firing a person from a job would motivate him to be a better worker. If negative reinforcement was effective, when your boss upbraided you in front of your coworkers, you would become a much more pleasant and productive employee. If it worked, when she gave you the 'silent treatment' because you were late for a date, you would never be late again. If it worked, you would only need to spank your submissive once.
Discipline has many meanings. The literal meaning was taken from the word disciple, meaning, "a follower, one who takes another as a teacher [therefore, if she is your disciple, you will teach her (discipline her)]." The definition of discipline I use is: "Training intended to produce a specified character or pattern of behavior." And when training is complete, this third definition of discipline is what you have; "a state of order based on submission to rules and authority."
I have noticed that in chat/online most people seem to believe that discipline is the same as punishment. In my opinion, the main difference between discipline and punishment is that discipline uses training methods that closely correlate to the misbehavior, whereas punishment is arbitrary, involves no training methods, and does not have to 'fit the crime.'
I assume their view of discipline is based on this fourth definition of discipline: "punishment intended to correct or train." This, I believe, is an acceptable use of the word discipline if one is thinking of having a submissive stick her tongue to a bar of soap to curb her bad language. If this is done when the bad language is uttered, this form of punishment could be said to correct or train. If, however, the punishment for bad language is a spanking, since there is no correlation to the misbehavior and the punishment used to correct it, it is not training nor correction.
If we substitute the word punishment for discipline (in the above situation), then this makes more sense. Punishment is a "penalty for wrongdoing." It does not necessarily have to fit the crime. Punishment can be arbitrary, determined by whim. A domme can impose any punishment she chooses for any misbehavior (although this needs to be set forth from the beginning so that the submissive knows what she is risking with misbehavior). But this is not discipline, it is not used to train the submissive, it is used to punish her.
Let me offer an example of discipline and then some of punishment to illustrate my point. Suppose you want your submissive to focus more on your sexual needs than her own. You wouldn't spank her for being aroused would you? Would you send her to the corner for being horny? Of course you wouldn't, not if your goal is to teach her discipline/train her to focus her sexual energy into meeting your sexual needs and not her own.
A method I would suggest for teaching self-discipline is positive reinforcement. When she is aroused and thinking of her own sexual needs you would have her pleasure you in some sexual manner. She is not allowed orgasm; her pleasure will come in the form of her satisfying her need to please you. You can tease her a bit, get a little rough with her, and keep her excited by your comments or expressions of pleasure (this will satisfy her need for control). After you are satisfied, be affectionate with her. Tell her what a wonderful "girl" she is, and how much she has pleased you. Snuggle her close to you and fall asleep this way (this will meet her needs to feel special and cared for). In this way, she will eventually feel her sexual arousal as a need to worship your body. This is discipline (training).
Punishment will make her feel bad about herself, afraid of you, or resentful. Now that I have made some people angry, let me say that I understand that this may not be what you intend to use it for, but this is the effect. An example of punishment might be spanking/whipping your submissive because she used unacceptable language. Now remember this is punishment, not S/m play, this cannot be fun for either of you for it to be real punishment. It must not be something she likes (does she like being spanked? If she does, this is not punishment, it is play). If this is something either of you likes, you are reinforcing the bad behavior rather than curbing it. If she likes being spanked, she will use this language whenever she wants you to spank her. If she doesn't like to be spanked, she is now in a position that is teetering on abuse.
We defend our playstyle and our lifestyle with the Safe, Sane, and Consensual credo. We do this because we are aware that without consent, the physical aspects of our play are simply abuse. If the submissive isn't aroused by intense sensation (pain), then we can not use it, unless she has consented to it. Why would someone consent to something she does not like? If she is submissive, she could very well consent to it to please her dominant, but is it safe and sane? If she is allowing you to do something to her that she does not like at all, especially something that causes pain, she is creating a confusing conflict in her own mind. This conflict is perfect for triggering memories of past pain and abuse. There is nothing safe or sane about this. You are putting your submissive in emotional danger by requesting that she accept physical pain that she does not enjoy. You could easily find yourself dealing with some serious emotional fallout, possibly so serious, that you will not be equipped to handle it adequately. Is this risk of emotional pain and trauma worth it -- just because you want the power to punish her?
Exactly what does punishment do for you or your submissive? How does it benefit you? The allure, I think, is control; ultimate control. For a dominant to feel that she has so much control over another human being that she can even strike this person (and not risk retaliation) to show her disapproval is a heady feeling. But people, this is fantasy stuff. This is like the fantasy of having your submissive live in a cage in your basement. It is hot, arousing, and fills you with a feeling of exquisite power, but it is not realistic.
Spanking for mutual pleasure (you can pretend the she is actually being punished) can be wonderfully fulfilling if you have these fantasies of ultimate control. They work quite well in scene. They cannot, however, be translated into reality. Punishing an adult simply does not work. There is too much mental resistance to it in the adult mind. Even if she consents to it and means for it to be effective, it rarely 'takes.' The same punishment is needed again and again and as it continues to be administered, your submissive becomes more and more emotionally damaged by it. Self-esteem is damaged as she internalizes her 'badness'. This is not a loving, mutually uplifting relationship in which each partner grows and becomes her better self.
Mental punishment is no more effective than physical punishment. Using the 'silent treatment,' pouting, avoidance, and withholding sex all create resentment or the pain of rejection when used as punishment. These feelings eat at the foundation of your relationship; they are silent destroyers of love. These punishments will not alter your partner's behavior because they do not motivate. Adults change themselves because they are motivated to do so.
Positive reinforcement motivates, negative reinforcement does not. When adults are confronted with pain or unpleasantness, they simply find ways to avoid this feeling, even if that means avoiding the person doling out the unpleasantness. Do you avoid people who nag at you, even if they have your best interests at heart?
If negative reinforcement worked, then firing a person from a job would motivate him to be a better worker. If negative reinforcement was effective, when your boss upbraided you in front of your coworkers, you would become a much more pleasant and productive employee. If it worked, when she gave you the 'silent treatment' because you were late for a date, you would never be late again. If it worked, you would only need to spank your submissive once.
Thinking "out loud" now...
That was absolutely brilliant, MsWorthy. Extremely well thought-out and thorough. Thank you for sharing it.
Now, my response, because I'm seeing some variation in my case. I figured out that it boils down to, I'm not being trained. I am adjusting to reach my potential, and T contributes to that because I know what he wants from me. But somehow I don't think it is exactly a situation where discipline applies--here's the rambling part and I do apologize but I'm trying very hard to sort this out.
From what I know of T, he doesn't feel the need to recast me into a Perfect Sub image. The commands I get are often pure whim, given because he knows how damned near impossible it would be to obey them. Sadist that he is, this is his goal. (And oh, I do get positive reinforcement. Eventually.) I might be wrong on this, but I don't think that he would do any sort of disciplinary action from anything that is not directly related to sex. Swearing wouldn't get my mouth washed out. I think those are non-issues.
I have lots more to ramble on this but I'm off to give plasma. Maybe I'll be more coherent upon returning. Thank you once more for such a lucid response, MzWorthy!
That was absolutely brilliant, MsWorthy. Extremely well thought-out and thorough. Thank you for sharing it.
Now, my response, because I'm seeing some variation in my case. I figured out that it boils down to, I'm not being trained. I am adjusting to reach my potential, and T contributes to that because I know what he wants from me. But somehow I don't think it is exactly a situation where discipline applies--here's the rambling part and I do apologize but I'm trying very hard to sort this out.
From what I know of T, he doesn't feel the need to recast me into a Perfect Sub image. The commands I get are often pure whim, given because he knows how damned near impossible it would be to obey them. Sadist that he is, this is his goal. (And oh, I do get positive reinforcement. Eventually.) I might be wrong on this, but I don't think that he would do any sort of disciplinary action from anything that is not directly related to sex. Swearing wouldn't get my mouth washed out. I think those are non-issues.
I have lots more to ramble on this but I'm off to give plasma. Maybe I'll be more coherent upon returning. Thank you once more for such a lucid response, MzWorthy!
Re: Thinking "out loud" now...
Thank you for your comments, Quint. It seems that what you are talking about is fun, fun, fun (sexual/erotic pain/pleasure), and not about dicipline or punishment. Is this what you mean?
Quint said:
Thank you for your comments, Quint.
It seems that what you are talking about is fun, fun, fun (sexual/erotic pain/pleasure), and not about dicipline or punishment. Is this what you mean?
zipman
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I had a sub once who did desire punishment. She was raised as a devout catholic, and was exposed to severe punishments for touching herself or anything to do with sexuality.
She often would "confess" to me and tell me that she was bad and needed punishment. If I didn't spank her to the point of tears, she would not be able to orgasm. The "punishment" was a form of release to her that then enabled her to enjoy sex.
This was her explanation to me.
She often would "confess" to me and tell me that she was bad and needed punishment. If I didn't spank her to the point of tears, she would not be able to orgasm. The "punishment" was a form of release to her that then enabled her to enjoy sex.
This was her explanation to me.
P. B. Walker
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Wow, MsWorthy. That was excellent. Very informative. I learned quite a bit from reading that. Thanks for passing that on.
- PBW
- PBW
Lancecastor
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Having read your posts....
...as well as having looked through your web site, I just wanted to say again how much I enjoy your style and content, Ms. Worthy.
<slight bow>
Lance "I Am Not Worthy" Castor
MsWorthy said:
...as well as having looked through your web site, I just wanted to say again how much I enjoy your style and content, Ms. Worthy.
<slight bow>
Lance "I Am Not Worthy" Castor
catalina_francisco
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Thought perhaps this might be a good bump.
Catalina
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MissTaken:
"It seems to me that anyone who wants only the negative may have some serious issues."
I think we as a society have long blindfolded ourselves to the commonplaceness of having serious issues.
"It takes a great degree of self awareness, self esteem and confidence to enter into this lifestyle and recognize the distribution of love in a manner which conflicts with everything we have been raised to believe."
I disagree. BDSM requires only a willingness and/or desire to engage in 'kink' activities. Now, *ideally* a person would have a great deal of self-awareness and self-esteem (and might I add respect for the happiness and well-being of others?) before becoming involved in BDSM but that's not always the case. Of course, ideally a person would have these things before being involved an any type of relationship.
"It seems to me that anyone who wants only the negative may have some serious issues."
I think we as a society have long blindfolded ourselves to the commonplaceness of having serious issues.
"It takes a great degree of self awareness, self esteem and confidence to enter into this lifestyle and recognize the distribution of love in a manner which conflicts with everything we have been raised to believe."
I disagree. BDSM requires only a willingness and/or desire to engage in 'kink' activities. Now, *ideally* a person would have a great deal of self-awareness and self-esteem (and might I add respect for the happiness and well-being of others?) before becoming involved in BDSM but that's not always the case. Of course, ideally a person would have these things before being involved an any type of relationship.
