Astrological Symbolism and BDSM; Sade example

[Pure]

RS:
//No earthshattering revelations there. //

I don't think Cait or I are trying to shatter the earth or astound, esp. given the public posting of info by many persons, such as you. Nor could predictive or retro-dictive abilities--if they were claimed-- be demonstrated in such a situation.

In my opinion, we're seeing how astro-symbolism 'fits' in characterizing sexual aberrations, esp. S/M.

 

[Caitlynne]

Pure Originally said:

FURTHER NOTE. By giving the planetary chart data you are giving your year and date of birth. In giving 'angles' and houses, you are giving rough location of birth. Hence do not give away stuff you don't want to.

This is quite true, and I urge everyone to excercise caution in posting ALL of the astrological information given in a chart. Eliminate the house degrees, the planetary degrees and the outer planets (Uranus, Neptune and Pluto).. and the place and year are pretty much masked. **Just to protect privacy**

Pure Originally said:

The point was that for *any* set of rough categories, no one has ever found a valid, reproducible pattern according to sun signs. E.g., if you think murderers, even violent ones, might tend to be Sun in Aries, or conversely, you would be disappointed. Applying this to the sex issues, if you think 'bi's should have Sun in Gemini more often than straight hets, or vice versa, no. And, in the case at hand, if you expect 'dom/mes' to disproportionately show Sun in Scorpio, or sun in scorpio have more representation among dom/mes than say Sun in Pisces, you would almost certainly be disappointed. Knowing a person's Sun Sign does not allow prediction of where that person might fall**, or be best suited, in a set of rough categories (You have Sun in Scorpio, therefore you'd be better as a psychoanalyst that a hockey 'forward'.--NOT)

This is quite important in dealing with Astrology and well said. While there are dramatic similarities between all people of a similar sign, how those similarities manifest can be as individual as a finger print. Sun sign descriptions are a place to begin, the Astrological Primer, but (IMHO) reveals less than popular authors would have you all believe.

Taking Sun signs alone, the signs themselves break down into 3 differing catagories (called decans), each decan offereing a slightly different color and expression to the Sun sign. Add to that there are specific degrees that are *more important* than others giving an added emphasis on certain qualitites in the native. Add to that the house the Sun sign falls in and you have the area of life those unique Sun sign qualities will manifest in... etc, etc, etc.

Pure Originally said:

I don't think Cait or I are trying to shatter the earth or astound, esp. given the public posting of info by many persons, such as you. Nor could predictive or retro-dictive abilities--if they were claimed-- be demonstrated in such a situation.

In my opinion, we're seeing how astro-symbolism 'fits' in characterizing sexual aberrations, esp. S/M.

Exactly, and I'd like to add that a natal chart alone cannot be used accurately to **predict** anything about future events. Natal Astrology is one field of endeavor in Astrology, there are others that address predictive work. (Mundane, Horary, and Progressions)..

I'd agree with Pure here that the excercise was to look at a specific context for certain aspects in Astrology. Specifically, using only Astrology and interviews with individuals, what common threads can we discover that indicate a BDSM lifestyle?

So far, it's quite intersting using the SM and de Sade chart's as templets. But I for one, am discovering this right alone with the rest of you, as there is no Astrological study that I am aware of that has addressed this subject. I'd add also, that we would need a much larger sample to come to any accurate conculsions, but that doesn't negate the fascinating similarities we're already seeing.

As I've said, I think what we will find, (If we continue to look at this) is that there are combinations of several elements not just one or two.

~ Cait

 

[Pure]

Pure said,

FURTHER NOTE. By giving the planetary chart data you are giving your year and date of birth. In giving 'angles' and houses, you are giving rough location of birth. Hence do not give away stuff you don't want to.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cait said
This is quite true, and I urge everyone to excercise caution in posting ALL of the astrological information given in a chart. Eliminate the house degrees, the planetary degrees and the outer planets (Uranus, Neptune and Pluto).. and the place and year are pretty much masked. **Just to protect privacy**

====
Having said this, realistically, it would take a pro to work back from the chart. I just spent an hour with the exercise to refresh my memory (using calculator, trigonometry). If one arrives at a birth date and a large city--say Chicago, I think your privacy is pretty well protected. (If I know you're born in Chicago, Nov 17, 1980, how do I sift through the Chicago births of that day to find the right name?)

The real question is whether to reveal your d.o.b. Yes, eliminating planetary degrees- i.e., simply say Moon in Leo--
and outer planets (Ur, Nept Plut), does it, as Cait says. But the resulting info is too sketchy to do much analysis on.

In short, if you don't have a problem revealing birthday, age, i.e., dob , you can give the degrees of sun, moon and all planets, and of the ASC and MC, to enable an analysis. Your d.o.b. is the'price' for playing this game.

J.

 

[Caitlynne]

Having said this, realistically, it would take a pro to work back from the chart. I just spent an hour with the exercise to refresh my memory (using calculator, trigonometry). If one arrives at a birth date and a large city--say Chicago, I think your privacy is pretty well protected. (If I know you're born in Chicago, Nov 17, 1980, how do I sift through the Chicago births of that day to find the right name?)

The real question is whether to reveal your d.o.b. Yes, eliminating planetary degrees- i.e., simply say Moon in Leo--
and outer planets (Ur, Nept Plut), does it, as Cait says. But the resulting info is too sketchy to do much analysis on.

In short, if you don't have a problem revealing birthday, age, i.e., dob , you can give the degrees of sun, moon and all planets, and of the ASC and MC, to enable an analysis. Your d.o.b. is the'price' for playing this game.

J.

LOL!! Although I was speaking about a different kind of privacy, this is true. It would take a pro to get your RL name and vital statistics. I was more concerned with the absolutness of what a chart reveals about an individual's inner workings. Eliminating exact degrees, etc. offers a measure of protection. But I'll leave this alone for now.

Interesting response, very interesting!

~ Cait

 

[Pure]

Hi Cait,

//I was more concerned with the absolutness of what a chart reveals about an individual's inner workings. //

That concerns me much less, Cait.
It's the beauty of the 'net. With some precautions about giving out real name, address, etc., it doesn't matter how much salacious detail I put into my confessional postings, or how accurately someone could 'read' my chart: they don't know who the fuck it is, or where I am.

 

[DarkLadyOfDeath]

Boredom i truely the mother of nvetion.. and my own inquisitiveness...

Planetary positions
planet sign degree house motion
Sun Taurus 00°04'35 12 direct
Moon Pisces 16°11'28 11 direct
Mercury Taurus 09°51'40 12 direct
Venus Pisces 14°38'12 11 direct
Mars Libra 03°19'44 06 retrograde
Jupiter Scorpio 06°09'41 06 retrograde
Saturn Libra 18°02'51 06 retrograde
Uranus Sagittarius 03°54'38 07 retrograde
Neptune Sagittarius 26°54'56 08 retrograde
Pluto Libra 25°25'07 06 retrograde
True Node Cancer 16°45'56 03 retrograde


House positions (Placidus)
Ascendant Taurus 19°08'20
2nd House Gemini 16°08'20
3rd House Cancer 07°07'28
Imum Coeli Cancer 28°03'56
5th House Leo 23°37'28
6th House Libra 00°14'23
Descendant Scorpio 19°08'20
8th House Sagittarius 16°08'20
9th House Capricorn 07°07'28
Medium Coeli Capricorn 28°03'56
11th House Aquarius 23°37'28
12th House Aries 00°14'23

Major aspects
Sun Opposition Jupiter 6°05
Sun Trine Neptune 3°10
Sun Opposition Pluto 4°39
Moon Sextile Mercury 6°20
Moon Conjunction Venus 1°33
Moon Quincunx Saturn 1°51
Moon Sextile Ascendant 2°57
Mercury Sextile Venus 4°47
Mercury Opposition Jupiter 3°42
Venus Sextile Ascendant 4°30
Mars Sextile Uranus 0°35
Saturn Quincunx Ascendant 1°05
Neptune Sextile Pluto 1°30


from what 've read it is very accuret.. and no I don't mind if people might gather my age, birthdate, and birthplace.

 

[Pure]

Hi Netzach,

{{Portion deleted, portions revised}}


Added 6-26, since you furnished the exact data, here are my revised comments.

There are some similarities with Sade, but definitely similarities with SM's chart,

This is the first 'mixed' {in respect of the two templates} chart we've looked at in this thread.

Similarities to SM are around the Sun Neptune connection, and Mars afflicting Sun. The ole mystical leanings, but with some 'cruel' or aggressive factor. Or fantasied agression to a male. (Left hand tantric). But I find the aggression not quite so persistent, but sporadic, tempestuous. Goes nicely with 'topping'. On cruelty, see below.

Also you both have a Venus Uranus connection, which is definitely off beat in choice of love object. However, there is a higher sexual energy than SM, and like Sade. To the dreaming and writing, add the fucking as habitual.

There are domme-ish elements, or more exactly, sadistic elements, as stated below.

There are indications of Sade-like problems around Moon afflicted by Saturn. Speculatively, difficulties with Mom. Cruelty toward women may be an inclination (consensually, of course). From the Sade case,too, we have the hostility or disinterest in reproductive sex, which you have expressed.

It's a sort of 'try anything', writer's chart, not necessarily 'hung up' on one deviation, though certainly there may be the cold persistence to get 'heavy' into one like SM. You would have exceptional ability to write about cruelty, having a wealth of imagination around aberrations. (Maybe found a new 'Theater of Cruelty.')

 

[RisiaSkye]

RS:
//No earthshattering revelations there. //

I don't think Cait or I are trying to shatter the earth or astound, esp. given the public posting of info by many persons, such as you. Nor could predictive or retro-dictive abilities--if they were claimed-- be demonstrated in such a situation.

In my opinion, we're seeing how astro-symbolism 'fits' in characterizing sexual aberrations, esp. S/M.

Sheesh, man. Are you always serious?

Cuz I'm not.

 

[Pure]

Additional Note on RS chart:

I deleted a phrase in the original analysis. I no longer consider the Moon very much 'afflicted', which is to say that relations with women are likely satisfactory, if tempestuous. Speculatively, the relation with Mother is not ultimately very negative, or persistently unfriendly, despite blowups. [cf. Sade's violent fantasies about mother(s)]

I find the emotions, esp. 'needs' in a somewhat detached position (with the possible exception of anger, in bursts) , giving two possibilities: either the ability to clinically see what's happening emotionally with others, or a lesser ability to express yourself in an integrated way (consistent with other personal traits and values) [less compulsively driven, emotionally than Sade]. In relation to your writing, I would not suppose the reader can ever exactly tell where 'you' (author) are emotionally--e.g., the characters dearest to you or those with whom you have the most empathy. Alternatively the writing just does not yield emotional release.

 

[Pure]

Hi Dark Lady,

If you would introduce yourself and say something about you aberrations or SM practices, if there are some!

-- it would be more likely to pique curiousity of astrologers. "i'm bored" is not much of a stimulus. Please tell something about yourself.

 

[Pure]

I will bump, for a little further discussion.

The chart of Sade has an incredible and partially hidden dynamism. He has 'squares' within 'squares', 'hard aspects' within 'hard aspects'.

Examining the fourth harmonic chart-- calculated so the square aspects become conjunctions, reveals the inner workings. One sees a 'grand cross' configuration of striking beauty. (At astrodienst, use, July 2, 1740, noon, Paris, and call for 'nine harmonic charts'. Look at 4. The 'squares' of this chart are the 22.5 degree aspects and multiples thereof, in the original. Or use your birth data, and call for the 'nine harmonic charts' under the extended options. Alternatively call for display of Natal chart on the 90 degree dial of "Ebertin")

Sun Ascendant is opposed Saturn, Mars and Venus. That's one arm. Neptune is opposed Mercury; other arm. (In essence, then, the 22.5 degree aspects and multiples thereof, exist among these planets.)

Saturn Mars Venus: the cruel expression of wanton lust--remembering the Mars Venus square to begin with. Opposed Sun. Dynamism around 'purpose', Sade's being to flaunt and demonstrate (Asc) his peculiar individual sexual obsessions. How?

Neptune opposed Mercury. Imaginative writing. Sade's only escape from the daimonic drives.

The grand cross, 'crucifixion'. Decades in prison. Torment over the authorities and his mother in law's reaction to his scandalous diversions--- which of course were only 1% of what he imagined, say, in _Juliette_

Note the Moon too, may be involved in the cross.