BDSM and Religion

[DeepGreenEyes]

I suppose it's a hint of Gnostic in me... but how can you know what you believe, if you don't know why you believe it? Imho, at least "because the Bible told me so" is better a reason than "I don't know, I just do".

I'm enjoying watching this conversation develop. Ravenwind, ever read Elaine Pagels' The Gnostic Gospels? It's a terrific book on the early church, why some books were excluded, others not, how women lost roles of power, etc. It paints an incredibly diverse picture of early Christianity. In the end, a lot of groups were whipped into line or kicked out in the interest of a united front. After reading it, I could no longer say the Nicene Creed; it was crafted basically to exclude the gnostics and other groups:

http://www.amazon.com/Gnostic-Gospels-Elaine-Pagels/dp/0679724532

 

[DeepGreenEyes]

ahhhh... and to think it all started with Your love of naughty nuns and private confessionals.

pass the wine please!

I think you do have one or two things to privately confess. I can think of one or two, anyway, that might be construed as mortal sins.

Purely out of concern for your soul, of course.

 

[Aquila1]

Can I also put up my hand and say how much i am enjoying this thread - particularly as the bulk of my early education was at Catholic schools. It must be at least 15 years since I took a theology paper, so it's nice to re-consider some of these matters from an entirely different perspective (i.e, advancing decrepitude ).

And on a lighter note, has anyone read Pietro Aretino's Secret lives of Nuns?
I know a few discredit it, but the depiction of convent life in Venice in the 1400's is very very hot, and the description of Murano glass dildos is exquisite. It's high up on the list of stopovers for when I build my time machine.

 

[Ravenwind]

I'm enjoying watching this conversation develop. Ravenwind, ever read Elaine Pagels' The Gnostic Gospels? It's a terrific book on the early church, why some books were excluded, others not, how women lost roles of power, etc. It paints an incredibly diverse picture of early Christianity. In the end, a lot of groups were whipped into line or kicked out in the interest of a united front. After reading it, I could no longer say the Nicene Creed; it was crafted basically to exclude the gnostics and other groups:

http://www.amazon.com/Gnostic-Gospels-Elaine-Pagels/dp/0679724532

I haven't read the book, but I have read the Gnostic books (and I'll be honest, it's worse than trying to sit and read through Numbers in one sitting... don't get me wrong, I love reading the Bible, but Numbers is the worst... it's one giant "so-and-so gave birth to so-and-so"... the Gnostic books are written in the same mind-numbing manner, imho).

I got into apologetics (defending the faith, or, knowing why I believe what I believe) several years back, and studied a lot of 'alternative' Christian beliefs (Mormonism, LDS, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Gnosticism, in particular) among others... And while I share a belief that the pursuit of wisdom and knowledge is a key to growth, like the Gnostics, their books don't match up with the Old Testament... To put it one way, the Bible, as is, flows as if a single writer wrote it. The Gnostic books (in comparison to the OT) is like the original writer stepped out, and someone else stepped in... they know the history, but overlooked the significance (or lack thereof) of it. And then considering how much of the text was ruined from age, it's incredibly hard to make heads or tails of it when...sentences and paragraphs...written...this...cut up...badly.

Regarding the loss of power, I feel that's more an RCC thing than a Bible thing. While the Pauline Epistles prohibit us from being the one in the pulpit and causing ruckuses in church, it doesn't prohibit us from leading all-women groups, witnessing, prophesying, and so on. Even so, considering the Gnostic Gospels, Mary Magdalene was still 'second fiddle' to Jesus. But, the entire Bible considered, both men and women share power equally, but in different ways. The men are the figurehead, the women support the men... without the women, the men would fall; without the men, the women would be scattered; so to speak. On that, I see no problems whatsoever.

 

[DeepGreenEyes]

I haven't read the book, but I have read the Gnostic books (and I'll be honest, it's worse than trying to sit and read through Numbers in one sitting... don't get me wrong, I love reading the Bible, but Numbers is the worst... it's one giant "so-and-so gave birth to so-and-so"... the Gnostic books are written in the same mind-numbing manner, imho).

I got into apologetics (defending the faith, or, knowing why I believe what I believe) several years back, and studied a lot of 'alternative' Christian beliefs (Mormonism, LDS, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Gnosticism, in particular) among others... And while I share a belief that the pursuit of wisdom and knowledge is a key to growth, like the Gnostics, their books don't match up with the Old Testament... To put it one way, the Bible, as is, flows as if a single writer wrote it. The Gnostic books (in comparison to the OT) is like the original writer stepped out, and someone else stepped in... they know the history, but overlooked the significance (or lack thereof) of it. And then considering how much of the text was ruined from age, it's incredibly hard to make heads or tails of it when...sentences and paragraphs...written...this...cut up...badly.

Regarding the loss of power, I feel that's more an RCC thing than a Bible thing. While the Pauline Epistles prohibit us from being the one in the pulpit and causing ruckuses in church, it doesn't prohibit us from leading all-women groups, witnessing, prophesying, and so on. Even so, considering the Gnostic Gospels, Mary Magdalene was still 'second fiddle' to Jesus. But, the entire Bible considered, both men and women share power equally, but in different ways. The men are the figurehead, the women support the men... without the women, the men would fall; without the men, the women would be scattered; so to speak. On that, I see no problems whatsoever.

Interesting points.

Her book is an analysis, not a collection of gnostic texts. Very well-written and actually a compelling read; she's a Princeton scholar who's also readable and accessible.

I can't say I share the view that the Bible reads as if written by one writer. To me, it's like (and pardon the comparison, because I don't mean this in a nasty way) one of those Highlights for kids magazines, or other old general interest magazines for adults: Some short stories, some poems, some puzzles, some jokes, letters; Different stuff written for different effect by different people.

 

[Homburg]

...you wouldn't believe how many people that call themselves Christians can't even pronounce "Psalms" let alone have the foggiest clue as to what's in it. Then, when their faith is challenged, they have no recourse except to resort to saying "I dunno, I just believe it". Then there's those who discard the Old in favor of the New... and wind up not understanding why "this person said/did this or that", and what it means in the bigger scope of things.

I suppose it's a hint of Gnostic in me... but how can you know what you believe, if you don't know why you believe it? Imho, at least "because the Bible told me so" is better a reason than "I don't know, I just do".

Trust me, I would believe the numbers. It goes back to living the unexamined life, and far too many people of any stripe indulge. Statistically, that means far too many Christians do so as well.

*snip*
In the past, every time someone cried out "The End Is Nigh", they didn't consider *all* of the conditions that need to apply before The End... usually it was just one or two things, or a small handful that fit. The world is currently in a state where *most* of those conditions have been met. That's why I brought up Damascus... it stands as a 'litmus test' in a way, as it is the longest continually inhabited city on earth... it's seen wars, but it has never been dehabitated, even despite the fact that it was one of *the* earliest settlements in existence (be it 'soon after standing upright' or 'soon after The Flood', it is *that* old). When Damascus completely falls... the rest of mankind will soon follow.

Well, the point still stands that most time periods have those that consider that the end is nigh. I do not know that today is more nigh than a millennium ago.

/HUGS!!! Hehehehe

Gamers must stick together. Well, so long as the sticking is metaphorical and not the result of indifference to hygiene.

Very true. But I kind of went back to the original concept of labelling it "monotheistic" or "polytheistic" on that one (likewise, I feel Space Rangers 2 is a 4x RPG, but the devs labelled it "Action & Strategy" on the box, so it's not really up to me on what to call it). But, you're right- in the end, it really is more about how we stand as individuals with our Maker, than what we say about it.

*laughs at you and 'jibba-jabba'... favorite term?* I suppose it was rather cluttered.

Jibba-jabba is a favourite of mine. I use it to indicate that noise has eclipsed signal, or, in this case, that the words have overwhelmed the meaning.

Okay, in a spot in Revelation, it mentions:
* the lamb that looks as it's been slain (implying Jesus, being the Paschal Lamb, as defined in the Gospels, mirroring Exodus)
* having seven eyes (defined in the book of Zechariah, that eyes mean knowledge)
* having seven horns (horns representing power [either physical and/or political, depending on overall context], as defined in Leviticus and Daniel, respectively)...
* those eyes and horns are 7 spirits that go throughout the earth. (not exactly symbolic there, just an identifying statement showing that the symbolic eyes and symbolic horns are representing actual globetrotting spirits)

* 7 is used *everywhere* in the Bible to mean "completeness". (It's one of those things akin to an after-dinner mint, or the post-sex cigarette... you just know it when you see it, 'cuz you see it used so often).

Therefore, 7 eyes throughout the earth = total knowledge of everything everywhere... 7 horns throughout the earth = total power everywhere.

As such, that verse is a statement of his omni-status, even if not readily apparent, unless you've read everything else in the Bible. *Then* it becomes apparent.

I know it's still confusing, but I'd have to write a book to explain it with any further clarity.

Well, the clarification helped. It still sounds obfuscatory to me, but I'm picky and suspicious at the same time.

Agreed (and I could've sworn there was an e in there... *shrug*). And I *still* haven't checked my laundry yet. I'm terrible. lol

I think there is. I have an exception though. My mom said I could misspell it. I do tend to spell Schopenhauer correctly though.

Good point. And therein, in the act of expecting the sun to rise tomorrow, lies faith. I've watched the movement of both the heavens and earth to 'just know'... I might be wrong, but if I am, I'm not gonna be around to hear 'bout how wrong I was... so I take it on faith. ^_~ So too with my faith in God.

Eh, I can take it on long observation that the odds are pretty darned good. The sun has risen every day of my life. But it's still odds. It's not a certainty. Given that I am not willing to do more than lay odds on a natural phenomenon that I've encountered without fail every day of my life, what would you expect regarding something that has exactly zero empirical presence?

And let Jesus know that I've backed off on the walking on water requirement. I'll accept a simple curing of my nasal allergies. A lack of snot today would truly be a divine thing.

*Overcomes a serious blond moment, and realizes what that was about *just now**. Okay, fine, whose kid was he? lol ^_^

Damifino.

 

[Homburg]

I can't say I share the view that the Bible reads as if written by one writer. To me, it's like (and pardon the comparison, because I don't mean this in a nasty way) one of those Highlights for kids magazines, or other old general interest magazines for adults: Some short stories, some poems, some puzzles, some jokes, letters; Different stuff written for different effect by different people.

The closest I will say is that it reads like each of the two main sections had a single editor.

 

[Ravenwind]

Trust me, I would believe the numbers. It goes back to living the unexamined life, and far too many people of any stripe indulge. Statistically, that means far too many Christians do so as well.

QFT.

Well, the point still stands that most time periods have those that consider that the end is nigh. I do not know that today is more nigh than a millennium ago.

*ponders* Well, even from a scientific view, the sun is inevitably gunna go blammo one of these millenia, *smirks playfully* therefore we are, if nothing else, a little closer. ^_~

Consider global warming... I'm sure you remember as well as I do when those 'lunatic treehugging scientists' were crying about the evils of CFCs... a fringe element crying, for all intents and purposes, 'the end is near'... we didn't do anything for a decade, until people saw the hole in the ozone and read the data behind it... and a decade more they spent arguing about what to do. A decade after that, the average joe is still driving a gas-powered car and using the same style lightbulbs as they have been, and rain in California is now worthy of being posted about.

Humanity tends to shrug off doomsayers upon first warnings... and when the data is right there in front of their face, it becomes a matter of debate of how true it is... when the first signs appear, it becomes a matter of debate on whether to take action or not... finally, action only seems to happen when the chain reaction starts, and by then it's too late.

I'm not saying take my word for it... look at the data for yourself. ^_~

Well, the clarification helped. It still sounds obfuscatory to me, but I'm picky and suspicious at the same time.

Like I said, I'd have to write a book to explain it further. It takes knowledge of the Bible, inside and out, to read the symbology in it. Or at very least, knowledge of how to use a concordance and look for that word every time it appears previously. ^_~ (I know, I cheat ^_^)

Eh, I can take it on long observation that the odds are pretty darned good. The sun has risen every day of my life. But it's still odds. It's not a certainty. Given that I am not willing to do more than lay odds on a natural phenomenon that I've encountered without fail every day of my life, what would you expect regarding something that has exactly zero empirical presence?

Very true. There's many things in life that are equally unemipirical. I cannot prove I love my Husband, read the dictionary for fun in elementary school, or hallucinate when I don't get enough sleep, empirically. These are things I just know from my own experiences, and of knowledge of who I am. Likewise, I know there's been times when God Himself stepped in on my behalf. I can't prove it, and can just as equally attribute it to luck or coincidence... but reliable coincidences aren't coincidences anymore, are they?

And let Jesus know that I've backed off on the walking on water requirement. I'll accept a simple curing of my nasal allergies. A lack of snot today would truly be a divine thing.

Rofl! So... feeling any better?

Damifino.

Ah, second cousin to Hellephyno, Grecian obfuscutionary extraordinaire! hehehe

 

[Homburg]

I'm not saying take my word for it... look at the data for yourself. ^_~

Eh, it's all about heat death eventually anyway, so we might as well take the advice of the sage known as TAFKAP and party like it's 1999.

Like I said, I'd have to write a book to explain it further. It takes knowledge of the Bible, inside and out, to read the symbology in it. Or at very least, knowledge of how to use a concordance and look for that word every time it appears previously. ^_~ (I know, I cheat ^_^)

Probably so. It does not help that I have mucous clogging my brain.

Very true. There's many things in life that are equally unemipirical. I cannot prove I love my Husband, read the dictionary for fun in elementary school, or hallucinate when I don't get enough sleep, empirically. These are things I just know from my own experiences, and of knowledge of who I am. Likewise, I know there's been times when God Himself stepped in on my behalf. I can't prove it, and can just as equally attribute it to luck or coincidence... but reliable coincidences aren't coincidences anymore, are they?

Many years ago I was having a conversation with a religious guy that was friends with my roommate at the time. I was firmly in my dickheaded atheist stage, and was giving him what for. He stayed clam the whole time, and discussed it reasonably. Finally he said "Faith is just.. different. You either feel it, or you don't. I can't describe it any better than that."

It was a bit of a quiet epiphany for me, as I realised that, no, I couldn't feel it. At that moment, I quietly owned my own lack of relationship with any sort of divine and stopped worrying about other people that did have that capacity. It was a big moment in my personal development.

And, no, god of no sort has ever interceded on my behalf. People have though. A believing man might argue that god motivated them, but I prefer to see it as people just being good. Whether that's godly or not is immaterial to me.

Rofl! So... feeling any better?

Nope, I'm still as much of the snotty sinner as I was when I wrote the note.

Ah, second cousin to Hellephyno, Grecian obfuscutionary extraordinaire! hehehe

*snort*

(Probably not the best emotive noise to use at this moment...)

 

[Kajira Callista]

A thread that is actually an intellegent discussion about religion without rudeness or nasty put downs and bashing?
*heads off to re-take her temperature*

 

[StrayKat]

A thread that is actually an intellegent discussion about religion without rudeness or nasty put downs and bashing?

Yes, and enjoyment to read so dont interrupt

 

[Ravenwind]

Eh, it's all about heat death eventually anyway, so we might as well take the advice of the sage known as TAFKAP and party like it's 1999.

*epiphany* Funny you mention it... it seems the most likely ways for us to kick the bucket en-masse is through heat and fire, one way or another. *shrugs* I see it as an opportunity to fix what's wrong in the world in what time we have left... *while* partying like it's 1999.

Many years ago I was having a conversation with a religious guy that was friends with my roommate at the time. I was firmly in my dickheaded atheist stage, and was giving him what for. He stayed clam the whole time, and discussed it reasonably. Finally he said "Faith is just.. different. You either feel it, or you don't. I can't describe it any better than that."

I couldn't have put it any better way than that. And no offense whatsoever, but trying to explain faith is like trying to explain 'red' to the blind, or 'heavy metal' to the deaf. It's not something they can grasp until experienced. Sure, I could say "red has a much shorter wavelength of light in the spectrum of colors", and it's understood conceptually, but the beauty of a deep red rose (as opposed to one that looks like its colors ran) will elude them.

The difference with faith and colors or music, is that it is something than can be grasped, if you seek it out. Hope, trust, and faith go hand-in-hand. If you have hoped for something, or put your trust into it, you have felt faith- not in God, but in that thing or that person.

And, no, god of no sort has ever interceded on my behalf. People have though. A believing man might argue that god motivated them, but I prefer to see it as people just being good. Whether that's godly or not is immaterial to me.

Likewise, I've had those moments of 'people being good'... the difference for me is the unusual circumstances surrounding the situations. ...and then there was one situation that I wholly cannot explain with logic. Even I struggle with my faith at times, and I'm torn between 'the atheist I used to be' and 'the Christian that I am now', and I look for a logical explanation as to how someone and their car can simply vanish into thin air; or how, even 15 years later, I can remember every little detail of the situation, except the guy's face, which I couldn't even remember not but 5 minutes after the incident... and I can't find one.

Maybe one of these days, I'll tell the stories... but they're pretty long.

Nope, I'm still as much of the snotty sinner as I was when I wrote the note.

*snort*

(Probably not the best emotive noise to use at this moment...)

OMG! my side hurts! lol *hands you a box of tissues* I feel for ya, I really do. Allergies are the worst.

And I have to say that I'm really enjoying this conversation. *doffs my non-existent hat to you* It's not often I come across someone of your caliber.

 

[Netzach]

I've always had an interest in both BDSM and religious sexual fantasies, and I know they're related; the sense of ritual, taboo, control, sin, punishment and atonement are so similar. In many religions, God is really the ultimate Dom; sometimes when I'm reading the liturgy in church, I feel as if it were written by a committee of subs.

Thoughts? Are you aroused by religious scenarios? If so, what kind? And what links do you see with your D/s preferences and fantasies?
And, of course, religious kink stories/experiences are welcome as well.

Being Jewish in worldview, anyway, it makes me more comfortable with the notion that I may, can, and will decide to punish/beat/deprive a bottom because...well...because.

Because I feel like it. Because the sky is blue. Because I have the right to do it. Because.

So, to play with me, is to be liberated from the notion that if you are being beaten it's because you've been very very BAD.

It's because you're there. Sometimes.

Maybe it's because you've been good. What do you expect, a cookie?

If you have been bad, then you should change your behavior.

That may or may not mean I stop beating you.

It's for me to know and you to live with.

 

[eastern sun]

Excellent point. But again, the *whole* of the Bible must be considered. For starters, a couple prophecies involve the destruction of Jerusalem and the dispersion of Israel, and then its reformation (in a specific manner- that it would be reformed as a nation in a single day, and then wars would come, a means completely contrary to the formation of nations both in the past, and even unto relatively modern times).

Knowing that, end times could not come until *at least* both of those were fulfilled... meaning the Disciples would not see the end times (but the potential for *their* disciples to see it existed, when Rome sacked Jerusalem in 70AD, therefore creating hope for the second condition to be fulfilled)... however, the latter part of that bit didn't occur until 1948, when Israel was reformed in a single day (by a U.N. act), and then wars came (the conflict that occurred soon after, the 6 Day War, and so on).

In the past, every time someone cried out "The End Is Nigh", they didn't consider *all* of the conditions that need to apply before The End... usually it was just one or two things, or a small handful that fit. The world is currently in a state where *most* of those conditions have been met. That's why I brought up Damascus... it stands as a 'litmus test' in a way, as it is the longest continually inhabited city on earth... it's seen wars, but it has never been dehabitated, even despite the fact that it was one of *the* earliest settlements in existence (be it 'soon after standing upright' or 'soon after The Flood', it is *that* old). When Damascus completely falls... the rest of mankind will soon follow.

I've only just had the opportunity to read through this discussion, and like others find it very interesting.

I'm curious, though, Ravenwind. Having identified the final condition that precedes mankind's fall, do you feel impelled to do whatever you can to keep Damascus standing, until the majority of mankind is saved? (which could in fact keep Damascus permanently upright) Or are you more curious about what will happen after, given your confidence in your own faith?

In other words, what is your responsibility as a Christian, towards the rest of mankind? and the earth?

 

[neci]

I've only just had the opportunity to read through this discussion, and like others find it very interesting.

I'm curious, though, Ravenwind. Having identified the final condition that precedes mankind's fall, do you feel impelled to do whatever you can to keep Damascus standing, until the majority of mankind is saved? (which could in fact keep Damascus permanently upright) Or are you more curious about what will happen after, given your confidence in your own faith?

In other words, what is your responsibility as a Christian, towards the rest of mankind? and the earth?

oooohh... time for some liberation theology!
going to the park, but i will be back.

 

[eastern sun]

Likewise, I've had those moments of 'people being good'... the difference for me is the unusual circumstances surrounding the situations. ...and then there was one situation that I wholly cannot explain with logic. Even I struggle with my faith at times, and I'm torn between 'the atheist I used to be' and 'the Christian that I am now', and I look for a logical explanation as to how someone and their car can simply vanish into thin air; or how, even 15 years later, I can remember every little detail of the situation, except the guy's face, which I couldn't even remember not but 5 minutes after the incident... and I can't find one.

Maybe one of these days, I'll tell the stories... but they're pretty long.

As someone who thrives on stories of direct experience, I would love to hear them, when you feel so inclined.

 

[Homburg]

*epiphany* Funny you mention it... it seems the most likely ways for us to kick the bucket en-masse is through heat and fire, one way or another. *shrugs* I see it as an opportunity to fix what's wrong in the world in what time we have left... *while* partying like it's 1999.

Heat Death is how the universe will end, so sayeth the Physicists.

Oooooohhhhhmmmmmm....

I couldn't have put it any better way than that. And no offense whatsoever, but trying to explain faith is like trying to explain 'red' to the blind, or 'heavy metal' to the deaf. It's not something they can grasp until experienced. Sure, I could say "red has a much shorter wavelength of light in the spectrum of colors", and it's understood conceptually, but the beauty of a deep red rose (as opposed to one that looks like its colors ran) will elude them.

None taken. I recognise it as a faculty that I do not possess, for good or for ill.

The difference with faith and colors or music, is that it is something than can be grasped, if you seek it out. Hope, trust, and faith go hand-in-hand. If you have hoped for something, or put your trust into it, you have felt faith- not in God, but in that thing or that person.

I don't know. I've more on religious than any ten average church-goers combined. I've looked, I've sought, and I've searched. I did not find faith.

Your example of hope = faith is an interesting one. At certain levels, I agree. Hope is a basic belief in a positive outcome with no particular empirical reason for that belief. I can subscribe to that. That said, I do tend to differentiate between belief and faith. Faith I usually use (in discussions like these) to denote a relationship with the divine. Belief is a simpler things, and can be ascribed to virtually anything.

I, for example, do believe that the sun will rise tomorrow morning, same as it did today. I do not take it on faith because I see no solid evidence of the hand of divine there. But I do believe it'll rise, simply because it has done so every other day of my life. Belief is the weak sister to faith in this case.

Likewise, I've had those moments of 'people being good'... the difference for me is the unusual circumstances surrounding the situations. ...and then there was one situation that I wholly cannot explain with logic. Even I struggle with my faith at times, and I'm torn between 'the atheist I used to be' and 'the Christian that I am now', and I look for a logical explanation as to how someone and their car can simply vanish into thin air; or how, even 15 years later, I can remember every little detail of the situation, except the guy's face, which I couldn't even remember not but 5 minutes after the incident... and I can't find one.

Maybe one of these days, I'll tell the stories... but they're pretty long.

I tend to like those sort of stories, much like Eastern Sun.

OMG! my side hurts! lol *hands you a box of tissues* I feel for ya, I really do. Allergies are the worst.

And I have to say that I'm really enjoying this conversation. *doffs my non-existent hat to you* It's not often I come across someone of your caliber.

Why thank you. The feeling is mutual.

And _I_ do happen to have a hat that I can doff.

*looks smug in his hat*

 

[BiBunny]

I was raised Southern Baptist. I'm not sure that I ever *really* believed. It just scared me when I was younger, so I went along with it all, mostly.

I started reading up on other religions when I was about 11. Suddenly, a lot of things that the Southern Baptist church tried to sell me that didn't make sense made sense. I realized that, for me, anyway, they had it wrong.

Since then, I've been developing the Church of Bunny, taking a little bit from here that made sense to me and a little bit from there that made sense to me and putting it all together.

I've been very heavily influenced by Hinduism and, to a lesser extent, other Eastern religions. I believe in karma, in reincarnation, in the idea that our destinies are intertwined with certain other people's. I also believe Jesus was a human incarnation--an avatar--of God. Notice I said "a" human incarnation and not "the" human incarnation.

I don't believe God would've sent only one incarnation of himself to one people and not to the rest of the world. Sure, now we have ways for most people to access most information they'd like to learn about, but that's been a fairly recent development. I believe there have been other avatars as well over the years, Krishna, for example.

I think we're all here on a path to find God. Some of us travel more quickly than others, but eventually we'll all find him/her/it/we/they. He's not going to abandon us in the end since we've all worked so hard for him.

We have to live numerous lives and experience a lot of things before we develop the ability to look outside ourselves and be what we're supposed to be. We live. We die. We go to some great cosmic waiting room to hang out and decompress for awhile. We're born again. That happens until we finally learn all we're supposed to learn and accomplished all we're supposed to accomplish, which is when we're reunited with God for good.

I often claim agnosticism online, on places like MySpace and Facebook, where you have to sum up your beliefs in a word or two because it's easier. But I've never not believed in something. I've seen too much in my time on Earth to think it's all happened randomly. My beliefs have just been refined as I've gotten older.

I could be wrong. No human can know all there is to know about the mind of God. And, hey, if I don't get it right this time, I believe in reincarnation. I'll have a chance to keep doing it over and over until I get it right. Even God believes that practice makes perfect.

I could write so much more, but I think I've bored everyone enough for now.

 

[DeepGreenEyes]

Since then, I've been developing the Church of Bunny, taking a little bit from here that made sense to me and a little bit from there that made sense to me and putting it all together.

Thanks. And anything but boring. I always enjoy hearing about the process of how people have crafted their own beliefs from bits and pieces of stuff that made sense to them.

Does the Church of Bunny have any rituals or holidays? Or is it like certain religions, where we're not allowed to know the really good stuff until we join up?

 

[BiBunny]

Thanks. And anything but boring. I always enjoy hearing about the process of how people have crafted their own beliefs from bits and pieces of stuff that made sense to them.

Does the Church of Bunny have any rituals or holidays? Or is it like certain religions, where we're not allowed to know the really good stuff until we join up?

Well...for a small one-time fee of $795.99, all the secrets can be revealed to YOU.

 

[DeepGreenEyes]

Well...for a small one-time fee of $795.99, all the secrets can be revealed to YOU.

Damn!! Another prosperity gospel shyster! Forget it.

Hmmmmm...will you, um, take a check?

 

[BiBunny]

Damn!! Another prosperity gospel shyster! Forget it.

Hmmmmm...will you, um, take a check?

Hmm...possibly.

 

[clock1]

Major offtopic, but for the longest time BDSM has seemed very religious-like to me. Rules, rituals, texts that people often refer to, even people who are looked up to for help and wisdom. Not to forget the whole "true" submissive/dominant discussion and some clashes in defining what's kosher. No matter how many times we seem to say that BDSM is pretty much what you make of it, there are rules and there seem to be even fanatic followers of the said rules. I've noticed it happen especially in smaller communities, not maybe so much in the BDSM scene as a whole. Just a thought.

Do continue with the actual topic.

BDSM has rules, rituals, kosher definitions, truth?

I must not have read that page. Not pretty much (but you are right) BDSM is exactly what you make of it. It is those who would have you make of it what they make of it that creates the needs in them for rules etc.

Fanatics in any behavior/belief system make it tough on everyone else be it religion, sexual behavior, or anything else as they get to use the "this is the way it is" argument based on their unerring ways, and complete faith that they are right.

Most fun I ever had was watching two groups of fundamentalist Christians debate who perceived the correct version of Jesus.

 

[DeepGreenEyes]

BDSM has rules, rituals, kosher definitions, truth?

I must not have read that page. Not pretty much (but you are right) BDSM is exactly what you make of it. It is those who would have you make of it what they make of it that creates the needs in them for rules etc.

Fanatics in any behavior/belief system make it tough on everyone else be it religion, sexual behavior, or anything else as they get to use the "this is the way it is" argument based on their unerring ways, and complete faith that they are right.

Most fun I ever had was watching two groups of fundamentalist Christians debate who perceived the correct version of Jesus.

I love to watch fundamentalists sitting at a banquet, unable to eat because they're fighting over which fork to use.

Yes, BDSM does have elements of religion: control, submission, "sin," (or transgression of the rules), punishment, atonement, sacrifice for personal growth, rituals, creeds, symbolic clothing or accessories worn at particular times. These are largely determined within individual relationships.

I'd agree that squabblers exist in any group. And the more fervent the belief, the more squabbling – the greater desire to paint lines between the ins and the outs.

Hell, I'll bet you can find a lunchbox collectors forum somewhere with crazed mobs of people at each other's throats over whether the Scooby Doo Mystery Machine lunchbox from the 70s has superior graphics to the Land of the Lost special edition with the sleestack fucking thermos.

BDSM has some fervent believers, including on Lit, who realllllly want those lines painted, as quickly as possible, with neon orange paint.
Hmmm...Or maybe stars instead of lines, 'cause sometimes it reminds me of the sneetches:

http://www.archiveslives.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/sneetches.jpg

 

[CutieMouse]

Being Jewish in worldview, anyway, it makes me more comfortable with the notion that I may, can, and will decide to punish/beat/deprive a bottom because...well...because.

Because I feel like it. Because the sky is blue. Because I have the right to do it. Because.

So, to play with me, is to be liberated from the notion that if you are being beaten it's because you've been very very BAD.

It's because you're there. Sometimes.

Maybe it's because you've been good. What do you expect, a cookie?

If you have been bad, then you should change your behavior.

That may or may not mean I stop beating you.

It's for me to know and you to live with.

[hijack]

This is one of those "I Netz" posts...

[/hijack]