Be bold! But how and when?

[SimonDoom]

The primary point for me is that you if are turned on by what you put in your story there will be others who will be too--and yet others who won't and might tell you so. To prevent heartburn, I think it's best to concentrate on the readers who appreciate you for what you write and be content with that readership.

This is what I do. I write the stories I want to write--the ones that interest me. Then, I use the site's tools--tags, titles, categories, taglines--to try to connect with the readership that I think will enjoy the story. Some people don't like what I do. Some people HATE what I do. It bothered me a little, at first, but it doesn't bother me at all now.

 

[Duleigh]

Personally, I think one reader wanted a bit more from a story and didn't get it. What kind of Bold did your commenter want? Among many other definitions, the adjective Bold is defined as "showing an ability to take risks; confident and courageous" Just putting your ideas and dreams out for public review and giving the public multiple ways to give you feedback is always a risk and shows a huge level of confidence and courage, so just publishing your stories is Bold.

But your critic was wrong in his/her "genuine constructive criticism," the ability to surprise is not a quality of being Bold, it's a quality of being Astonishing or Amazing. Bold is the class nerd asking the head cheerleader on a date, surprise is her saying yes.

If I received that feedback, I would be so tempted to publish some piece of flotsam and title it "A Bold Story for Reader XYZ" and set it all in boldface because in the end bold is just an adjective. Go write what you like.

 

[Thefireflies]

Excellent points, Duleigh. I like your analogy of bold being the nerd asking the cheerleader on a date and surprise being her saying yes (story idea there, even if it’s likely been told before! Make it believable...or boldly don't ).
I do, however, think it’s bold of someone to make a comment that is either negative or critical (perceived or otherwise). Especially when they don't do it anonymously. Personally I wouldn’t feel the need to write a negative comment, because if it was a bad story I wouldn't have finished it. Even if a story I was enjoying ends in a way that leaves me feeling ripped off, I don't see the point. Author's decisions are the author's decisions. But maybe happily ever after endings piss some readers off? I do occasionally read something where I feel an author could use some advice, but even giving advice can be touchy because even the best intended advice could be taken as negative criticism. On that note, this is hobby writing, but I’ve read published books (that I paid for!) where I wonder how the author even managed to get published and was an editor even involved in the process, making me think perhaps anyone can get published, even though I know it’s a rarity.

 

[SyleusSnow]

Thanks for starting this thread, @Thefireflies. This discussion is fresh and hit home with me.

I tend to agonize endlessly over my writing. In the series Warmer by the Lake, as an experiment I purposely set out to less anal and relentlessly second-guessing. Increasingly I went bold, ramped up the action and plausibility with each chapter until in Warmer by the Lake Ch.04 events became even more preposterous (from the perspective of my comparatively tame stories, that is)

Only a few readers were outraged enough to comment. For example:

Not expecting BDSM in the middle of the story. It's no good, author. You should at least warn us. I really disappointed, though. Why would you so cruel to even break our main heroine. She's a pure character than the mature Julie and carefree Sarah. I mean, we already have a bi heroine. I am against that, but still can withstand it. And now you had add BDSM, which I against too, from nowhere to the story. It was heart breaking for sure to me.

(if you're curious and don't want to read the chapter, the "BDSM" was a shy character tying another to a tree then pushing ice cubes up his ass)

Scores for that chapter and the series overall remain fairly high, so I guess I should consider the series a success, despite committing the offense of "being bold"

Feedback on Literotica, other than votes, is so rare it's difficult to gauge what hits with readers and what doesn't... how far to go and when too much is too much. I think the tactic is to simply write what you like, as others have said. If readers like your creations too... wahoo!. If not... well, they got their money's worth.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Not expecting BDSM in the middle of the story. It's no good, author. You should at least warn us. I really disappointed, though. Why would you so cruel to even break our main heroine. She's a pure character than the mature Julie and carefree Sarah. I mean, we already have a bi heroine. I am against that, but still can withstand it. And now you had add BDSM, which I against too, from nowhere to the story. It was heart breaking for sure to me.

That comment means nothing. It is simply kink judgement, nothing more, which has absolutely nothing to do with your narrative nor your skills. It also has nothing to do with this topic since it tells nothing as to whether or not your being bold was successful or not, as the commentor wasn't nearly so interested in your writing as he was in the kinks (that he was expecting) within it. He could have made the same comment whether your story was vivid or bland. Now if he had said something along the lines of "The unexpected plot twist of the BDSM scene distracted heavily from the narrative that you were building ..." then he would have been commenting on your writing and might have suggested that you may have gone to far (too bold), but he didn't. He just didn't like BDSM nor bisexuality. He's against that stuff so now he's against your story purely on principle, regardless of any merit. If he had made that comment in regards to some of my work I would dismiss it with a wave of my hand.

 

[Bramblethorn]

[quoting reader] I mean, we already have a bi heroine. I am against that, but still can withstand it.

Note to self: put more bi characters in next story.

 

[EarlyMorningLight]

That comment means nothing. It is simply kink judgement, nothing more, which has absolutely nothing to do with your narrative nor your skills. It also has nothing to do with this topic since it tells nothing as to whether or not your being bold was successful or not, as the commentor wasn't nearly so interested in your writing as he was in the kinks (that he was expecting) within it. He could have made the same comment whether your story was vivid or bland. Now if he had said something along the lines of "The unexpected plot twist of the BDSM scene distracted heavily from the narrative that you were building ..." then he would have been commenting on your writing and might have suggested that you may have gone to far (too bold), but he didn't. He just didn't like BDSM nor bisexuality. He's against that stuff so now he's against your story purely on principle, regardless of any merit. If he had made that comment in regards to some of my work I would dismiss it with a wave of my hand.

It shouldn’t surprise me, but in a place devoted to detailed written descriptions of a wide variety of carnal experiences, I’m dumbfounded by the large number of readers who react vociferously any time they come across something slightly outside of their own proclivities. It’s just sex. If the writing is engaging, I’ll read it even if the action isn’t a perfect facsimile of my own kinks. It’s hot to see what other people find hot.

I guess a lot of people come here looking for a free version of old Penthouse Forum magazines, which is kind of pathetic.

 

[8letters]

It shouldn’t surprise me, but in a place devoted to detailed written descriptions of a wide variety of carnal experiences, I’m dumbfounded by the large number of readers who react vociferously any time they come across something slightly outside of their own proclivities. It’s just sex. If the writing is engaging, I’ll read it even if the action isn’t a perfect facsimile of my own kinks. It’s hot to see what other people find hot.

I guess a lot of people come here looking for a free version of old Penthouse Forum magazines, which is kind of pathetic.

I can tell you that I/T readers are not open-minded at all when it comes to a lot of kinks. Anything sexual between two male characters is a big no-no. BDSM and noncon will typically get a very cold reception. My impression is that anal is tolerated but other types of sex are preferred. I'm guessing that the readers who respond vociferously to such kinks in an I/T story will say, "There are other categories for those kinks, and I don't want them showing up in stories in my category."

 

[SamScribble]

Several months back I received a generally positive comment on one of my stories, however it also included genuine constructive criticism that, “This story never surprised – be bold!” ...

It was one person's opinion, one person's request. But not everyone needs to be overtly surprised. Not every reader expects (or demands) that you write to their model.

I recently received a note from a reader expressing her delight at one of my (mainstream) short stories. 'I loved it,' she said. 'Nothing happened. I kept expecting something to happen, but it didn't. It was very clever.'

I'm now thinking that I might try to write a story in which there are even fewer surprises, a story in which even less happens. I'm pretty sure that it should make at least one reader happy.

 

[yowser]

I recently received a note from a reader expressing her delight at one of my (mainstream) short stories. 'I loved it,' she said. 'Nothing happened. I kept expecting something to happen, but it didn't. It was very clever.'

I'm now thinking that I might try to write a story in which there are even fewer surprises, a story in which even less happens. I'm pretty sure that it should make at least one reader happy.

David Foster Wallace wanted to do a novel centered around the world's most boring profession (which he decided was accounting.) He didn't finish it (suicide got in the way, not sure I want to find a moral here) but his editor found a way to complete it, The Pale King.

One chunk of the book is the afternoon in the life of an IRS (US tax auditing service) agent doing his audits. It is stunningly tedious, repetitive, mind-draining, and yet Wallace makes it a riveting read.

I think Wallace was thinking that if a good writer could make an interesting novel out of inherently boring material, he was top-notch.

I say go for it, Sam.

 

[Morm]

That comment means nothing. It is simply kink judgement, nothing more, which has absolutely nothing to do with your narrative nor your skills. It also has nothing to do with this topic since it tells nothing as to whether or not your being bold was successful or not, as the commentor wasn't nearly so interested in your writing as he was in the kinks (that he was expecting) within it. He could have made the same comment whether your story was vivid or bland. Now if he had said something along the lines of "The unexpected plot twist of the BDSM scene distracted heavily from the narrative that you were building ..." then he would have been commenting on your writing and might have suggested that you may have gone to far (too bold), but he didn't. He just didn't like BDSM nor bisexuality. He's against that stuff so now he's against your story purely on principle, regardless of any merit. If he had made that comment in regards to some of my work I would dismiss it with a wave of my hand.

I agree the person making that comment comes across as somebody who's not the most open minded in the world having a knee-jerk negative reaction. However, I disagree that there is nothing of value to be gained from the comment. With SyleusSnow's backstory, it sounds like the commentor is inelegantly trying to express that they feel the promises made going into the story weren't upheld.

For any unfamiliar with promises in writing, it basically means what you're telling the reader, from the outset, the story will be about. Brandon Sanderson talks about it more in depth here:

.

Whoever wrote that comment, perhaps justified and perhaps not, seems to have inferred SyleusSnow's story would be about X, Y and Z things. They were disappointed when they felt mislead. The comment itself could have been better articulated, certainly, but I still think it's a worthwhile bit of feedback to take away.

 

[BronzePlaceWriter]

First off, I'd say, nobody ever erected a statue in honour of a critic.

I'm not familiar with your work, but I've taken a quick look at your page. (Memo to self - check out TF's tales...) What I see is this:

• You have published 17 stories.
• All but two have won the Red H for a hot (4.5+) score.
• Two of them were contest winners. Two out of 17. Really?)
• Your average score is a laudable 4.74. (I'm jealous.)

That's a pretty enviable track record! But now, when some wingnut whines about your writing not being bold enough or some such heifferdust, despite all that solid achievement under your belt, you're letting them get to you.

As I said, I haven't read your stuff (yet), but I think it's pretty safe to say that you're a pretty good wordsmith.

Trolls are still trolls if they're polite.

With deep respect, that's a horrible way to look at things as a writer. Just because someone has an issue with your writing that they bring up politely does not make them a troll. A troll is not someone who says something you don't want to hear, a troll is someone looking for reactions. I don't think this commenter was even remotely a troll. Wrong, perhaps. But their opinion seems to have been genuine and deserves to be treated with respect because of that.

A writer should always know that they aren't perfect. That's not the same thing as being bad, mind. But the moment you sit down and say to yourself ''I can no longer improve, I am the best that I am ever going to be'' is the moment that you give up on ever being better. Past a certain point, people being willing to look at your work and tell you what they liked and didn't, what worked for them or what spoiled the story for them is is critical. It's one of the most important things that can happen to you as a writer.

You don't have to automatically take it on board. People can and will be wrong. But a key skill for any writer is being able and willing to listen. Judging someone as a troll simply because they found an aspect of the work that was not to their liking is, in my opinion, one of the worst things that a someone can do because it stifles their own potential. It's important to be open to the idea that no matter how good you are, you can always get better, and part of that it acknowledging that no matter how many past successes you have under your belt, there can always be things that people don't like or could be improved.

It's not trolling to find a part of an otherwise well written story that doesn't work for you, and it's not shameful to admit that you can still improve no matter how good you were in the past.

 

[KeithD]

But the moment you sit down and say to yourself ''I can no longer improve, I am the best that I am ever going to be'' is the moment that you give up on ever being better.

Sorry, but I don't think the need to forever get better in writing is an absolute axiom. What it does do is contribute to frustration and neediness. I think for some folks, where they are in writing is good enough--and not something for others to needle them about.

 

[BronzePlaceWriter]

Sorry, but I don't think the need to forever get better in writing is an absolute axiom. What it does do is contribute to frustration and neediness. I think for some folks, where they are in writing is good enough--and not something for others to needle them about.

I'm a bit confused. Are you trying to imply that I was needling the person I was replying to? Or that the original comment was needling the original author? In both cases, I feel like you're wrong but I am having a bit of a hard time deciding which you meant.

To be honest, I actually agree with you that there is no need for someone to push themselves to constantly improve and get better forever as an active thing. But writing is a skill and like all skills the more you practice the better you become at it. If you actively shield yourself from even mild criticism however you are hurting that process. Ultimately, you are hurting yourself.

If you are posting here on Literotica, then surely you do have some ambition to be better at writing because otherwise your story would not have been accepted in the first place. The internet is teeming with sites full of stories that are a lot worse than what you generally get here. I fail to see why someone would work hard to be good enough at writing to be posted here, and then somehow simply decide that they never wanted to be any better than that. If that was their attitude, surely they would not be here in the first place? Submitting to this site requires a basic amount of skill which requires some work and practice.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

With deep respect, that's a horrible way to look at things as a writer. Just because someone has an issue with your writing that they bring up politely does not make them a troll. A troll is not someone who says something you don't want to hear, a troll is someone looking for reactions. I don't think this commenter was even remotely a troll. Wrong, perhaps. But their opinion seems to have been genuine and deserves to be treated with respect because of that.

A writer should always know that they aren't perfect. That's not the same thing as being bad, mind. But the moment you sit down and say to yourself ''I can no longer improve, I am the best that I am ever going to be'' is the moment that you give up on ever being better. Past a certain point, people being willing to look at your work and tell you what they liked and didn't, what worked for them or what spoiled the story for them is is critical. It's one of the most important things that can happen to you as a writer.

You don't have to automatically take it on board. People can and will be wrong. But a key skill for any writer is being able and willing to listen. Judging someone as a troll simply because they found an aspect of the work that was not to their liking is, in my opinion, one of the worst things that a someone can do because it stifles their own potential. It's important to be open to the idea that no matter how good you are, you can always get better, and part of that it acknowledging that no matter how many past successes you have under your belt, there can always be things that people don't like or could be improved.

It's not trolling to find a part of an otherwise well written story that doesn't work for you, and it's not shameful to admit that you can still improve no matter how good you were in the past.

Well, I suppose it comes down to perception. The way I read the original post, somebody had criticized the OP's writing. Looking at his record, I pointed out that a lot of people liked his writing, that there was no reason to take criticism of it. If I was wrong, fine, but I'll stand by what I said about his stories - they have attracted a lot of very positive feedback and that speaks for itself.

 

[KeithD]

If you are posting here on Literotica, then surely you do have some ambition to be better at writing because otherwise your story would not have been accepted in the first place.

Well, no, sorry, I don't how those two things connect at all. And I don't see any necessary requirement to getting better at writing or even wanting to to write stories and submit them here. There's just no necessary connection. I, for instance, post stories here primarily to to have storage for them that isn't in my computer and also because I like to know that more people are reading them here than anywhere else I post them. I'm seventy-five and have been writing for the market for over three decades. Trust me, getting better and better at writing is no longer on my "to do" list, and that doesn't bother me one bit. I don't see why it would be requirement for anyone else posting stories here either.

 

[BronzePlaceWriter]

Well, I suppose it comes down to perception. The way I read the original post, somebody had criticized the OP's writing. Looking at his record, I pointed out that a lot of people liked his writing, that there was no reason to take criticism of it. If I was wrong, fine, but I'll stand by what I said about his stories - they have attracted a lot of very positive feedback and that speaks for itself.

That's fair. I guess what it came across to me as was ''You've done all of this great work, so you can ignore that bad comment. It doesn't mean anything.'' I apologise if that isn't what you meant. The reason I felt moved to post was that I felt that having done good work in the past is great but even a good author can sometimes make a mistake, you know? Saying that because someone's previous work is good, all of their current work is good too is kinda bad and creates bad habits in writers. We see it all the time in authors who get big and suddenly have a decline in quality because on some level they don't feel that they have to try anymore.

I guess I came off rather strong there? xD. Hopefully you can get what I was trying to say even if I didn't put it forwards in the best way.

Well, no, sorry, I don't how those two things connect at all. And I don't see any necessary requirement to getting better at writing or even wanting to to write stories and submit them here. There's just no necessary connection. I, for instance, post stories here primarily to to have storage for them that isn't in my computer and also because I like to know that more people are reading them here than anywhere else I post them. I'm seventy-five and have been writing for the market for over three decades. Trust me, getting better and better at writing is no longer on my "to do" list, and that doesn't bother me one bit. I don't see why it would be requirement for anyone else posting stories here either.

I feel like we may be talking past each other a little bit. I am not saying that an author has to want to improve constantly, but rather that to accept that now is as good as you are ever going to get is going to limit even your passive growth. If you reach a level where you don't feel like you really need to try anymore, you're not going to get any better. If you're okay with that, that's fine. Genuinely. But most people are probably not as distinguished as you are and many do still want to get better.

As for the Literotica thing, maybe it's because I mostly have written for other sites before this. But the majority of stories elsewhere are frankly not that great. Many would not get past the submission stage here. If you do manage to have stories here it means that you're already putting out work better than many people.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I recently received a note from a reader expressing her delight at one of my (mainstream) short stories. 'I loved it,' she said. 'Nothing happened. I kept expecting something to happen, but it didn't. It was very clever.'

I'm now thinking that I might try to write a story in which there are even fewer surprises, a story in which even less happens. I'm pretty sure that it should make at least one reader happy.

That's brilliant, Sam.

We should organise a Writers Only challenge (readers would find it worse than the 750 Word things - and we all know how they go down) - The Literotica Paint Watching Anthology.

I'd be well in - I remember AwkwardMD saying of one of my stories, "But nothing happens," as if that was a bad thing, completely missing the point that I write evocative mood, not complex psychological interaction as she does.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

However, I disagree that there is nothing of value to be gained from the comment. With SyleusSnow's backstory, it sounds like the commentor is inelegantly trying to express that they feel the promises made going into the story weren't upheld.

With these types of trolling comments, that argument is irrelevant though. If someone gives a negative comment that actually touches on points of structure or characters or immersive setting etc, it is still contsructive, but mindless trolling (which we are talking about here) is simply someone upset that you don't think the same way that they do, nothing more. Any promises made in that regard aren't made by the writer, only assumed by the reader and the comments show zero reflection on the work itself.

Furthermore, decent little video, I enjoyed, but he is talking about plot and half the stories on lit have little to no plot. They are centralized on kinks, and even if a writer conveys a kink very well, he will get trolled by some judgemental tool who expects that kink to be portrayed a certain way. If you don't 'agree' with said troll's interpretation of said kink, you will get hate hurled at you. It has nothing to do with your plot. So any 'promises made' to the reader are simply in the tags or even just the category that is published under, and those promises (as you call them) are 100% defined by the reader with zero control over those definitions by the writer at all.

Whoever wrote that comment, perhaps justified and perhaps not, seems to have inferred SyleusSnow's story would be about X, Y and Z things. They were disappointed when they felt mislead. The comment itself could have been better articulated, certainly, but I still think it's a worthwhile bit of feedback to take away.

No, troll feedback is never valuable. There is a big difference between contsructive criticism (however blunt) and pure spite. Constructive criticism is always valuable no matter how cold or blunt. Spite is never valuable commentary on the quality of writing. It's irrelevant, just as pure love smoke-blowing is. What many people get hung up on is the tone of the comment instead of the actual meaning of it.

'Your plot was predictable and characters paper thin' is very blunt yet very constructive, but many writers would take it as hate and get discouraged.

Whereas 'This is terrible, that kink doesn't work that way!' has nothing to do with your writing or your presentation. It is simply a measurement against a personal pre-conceived notion.

On the flip side, "I loved your story. Keep up the good work!" sounds great on the surface but really tells you nothing. It's just blowing smoke. However most writers love this kind of comment even though it's nothing but an ego feeder.

 

[KeithD]

That's fair. I guess what it came across to me as was ''You've done all of this great work, so you can ignore that bad comment. It doesn't mean anything.'' I apologise if that isn't what you meant. The reason I felt moved to post was that I felt that having done good work in the past is great but even a good author can sometimes make a mistake, you know? Saying that because someone's previous work is good, all of their current work is good too is kinda bad and creates bad habits in writers. We see it all the time in authors who get big and suddenly have a decline in quality because on some level they don't feel that they have to try anymore.

I guess I came off rather strong there? xD. Hopefully you can get what I was trying to say even if I didn't put it forwards in the best way.



I feel like we may be talking past each other a little bit. I am not saying that an author has to want to improve constantly, but rather that to accept that now is as good as you are ever going to get is going to limit even your passive growth. If you reach a level where you don't feel like you really need to try anymore, you're not going to get any better. If you're okay with that, that's fine. Genuinely. But most people are probably not as distinguished as you are and many do still want to get better.

As for the Literotica thing, maybe it's because I mostly have written for other sites before this. But the majority of stories elsewhere are frankly not that great. Many would not get past the submission stage here. If you do manage to have stories here it means that you're already putting out work better than many people.

I guess I see you being judgmental in ways that set my teeth on edge. And it's a common occurrence on the discussion board, so it isn't just you I'm reacting to. Twice in this post. It's really no one else's business, in my view, in what a writer's expectations are in posting a story to Literotica (one that gets posted) and I think it's arrogant for someone to tell anyone else what their expectations are or should be. Getting better at writing simply is not a legitimate requirement for someone "should be doing" here. After decades of writing, getting better at it simply doesn't have to be requirement for doing it. I'd love to hear what Hemingway would have said to you if you instructed him that he shouldn't write the next short story or novel unless he was doing it to get better at writing.

The second judgmental thing that happens here a lot is saying that most of the stories are crap. Where does someone come off in saying that? First, they can't possibly have read most of the stories here, and, second, what right do they have to look down their noses at anyone else whose story has been accepted for admission here--either in what writers chose to write or that readers here chose to read? Just do your own thing and leave others to do theirs and don't act like you're some sort of qualified literary critic on a free-use story site. (The "you" here is for all of those who play "most of the stories here are crap" card, not just you specifically.)

I don't read many stories here. I come here to get stories posted, not read them. And I don't put my nose into making judgment on the stories of others here. They can have their own reasons for writing and their own level of readership.

And I sure as hell, after three decades in the market place, don't write the next story to be a better writer than the last story I wrote. I'm pretty sure I'm in the same pew with Hemingway on that.

 

[KeithD]

That's brilliant, Sam.

We should organise a Writers Only challenge (readers would find it worse than the 750 Word things - and we all know how they go down) - The Literotica Paint Watching Anthology.

I'd be well in - I remember AwkwardMD saying of one of my stories, "But nothing happens," as if that was a bad thing, completely missing the point that I write evocative mood, not complex psychological interaction as she does.

The initial creative writing course I took reduced the story arc to dilemma/conflict/change/resolution. By the time I got around to running creative writing courses of my own, I was saying that dilemma/conflict/failure to change was also a legitimate story arc--and very much in keeping with real life and providing a legitimate real theme.

 

[SamScribble]

That's brilliant, Sam.

We should organise a Writers Only challenge (readers would find it worse than the 750 Word things - and we all know how they go down) - The Literotica Paint Watching Anthology.

I'd be well in - I remember AwkwardMD saying of one of my stories, "But nothing happens," as if that was a bad thing, completely missing the point that I write evocative mood, not complex psychological interaction as she does.

It might be fun, EB. It would also be an opportunity to set some new record low scores.

 

[SamScribble]

The initial creative writing course I took reduced the story arc to dilemma/conflict/change/resolution. By the time I got around to running creative writing courses of my own, I was saying that dilemma/conflict/failure to change was also a legitimate story arc--and very much in keeping with real life and providing a legitimate real theme.

You are so right, Keith. Over these past few days, I have been revisiting some of my ‘orphans’ for a possible anthology. And several of the more convincing stories are exactly as you describe: dilemma/conflict/failure-to-change. Life has a tendency to be a bit like that.

 

[KeithD]

You are so right, Keith. Over these past few days, I have been revisiting some of my ‘orphans’ for a possible anthology. And several of the more convincing stories are exactly as you describe: dilemma/conflict/failure-to-change. Life has a tendency to be a bit like that.

One of my favorite "off the norm" authors is Anne Tyler, who writes about simple, flawed folks in a bittersweet, but life-affirming, way. I see the arc of many of her books as being dilemma/conflict/acceptance and/or compromise, and I think that's a legitimate, realistic story arc.

The "many things work" flexibility of fiction is what keeps it fresh and interesting.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

BPW - No worries.