Beginner Editor

[PurrfectMoon]

I can't believe some of you.

Wow... this is a heated thread. I have to speak up:

First, the person who started this thread, did so because I asked her to edit my Erotic Horror Story. Within 1 hour of accepting the story, I got an email from her apologizing and saying she was going to withdraw from Literotica.

I would have been more than happy to have her look at my work, even without credentials, or a degree. Even if all she had done was change the color on the text when she edited without any sort of editing program.

Hell, I emailed 8 people on that damned editor list searching for one.. and she was the only one to respond as of yet, days later.

So, while in a UNREALISTIC world, we would have dozens of elitist editors just graduated with english degrees or working in the editing field, aching to read what can sometimes be crappy erotica and edit for strangers for FREE.

That just isn't going to happen. Its not realistic.

I think that the just having someone take the time to edit and give you an opinion, is more than good. If they can do grammar and structure, then hell yes. That's excellent. If they mess up, I forgive them.

Seriously, I can't believe some of the crap written in this thread. Anonymity over the internet be damned, some of you are heartless.

~Purr

 

[sr71plt]

You have probably just been saved from years of misconceptions about grammar, punctuation, writing, spelling, word usage, etc.--and just don't appreciate it. You are volunteering to be duped. You seem to think that just being able to say that someone claimed to edit your work, zap, makes it edited.

Any old untrained advice isn't, as a matter of fact, better than no advice at all.

What this discussion is goes beyond this isolated thread, by the way.

And don't kid yourself. This isn't an issue of elitism vs. helpfulness. It's an issue of useful, constructive advice vs. ignorance and possibly permanent damage to your writing skills.

If you don't care about your stories, why bother to have them edited at all? Literotica doesn't require it, and I dare say that most writers don't do it--and still connect with a reader base.

 

[LissaSue]

I'm not quite sure on what basis you are hanging out an editor's shingle to be asking these particular questions.


This is what I was meaning by somethings coming across as kind of scarey for new people. Most new, unsure, and nervous volunteers would look at that and think you were calling them idiots for trying.

 

[sr71plt]

I'm not quite sure on what basis you are hanging out an editor's shingle to be asking these particular questions.


This is what I was meaning by somethings coming across as kind of scarey for new people. Most new, unsure, and nervous volunteers would look at that and think you were calling them idiots for trying.

Not idiots. Fakes. Pretending to be able to do something they aren't trained to do. (And then, in cases like this, asking others to hand them an easy button.)

And, no, I don't think they deserve bouquets for pretending to be able to do something that they aren't trained to do-especially with something that a writer has poured her/his sweat and tears into.

Can you possibly view this from the perspective of the writer being invited down a blind alley? (And can't you see from PurrfectMoon's posting above how willing writers become to pretend too--and let any development they thought they were getting get all screwed up?)

Have you grown up so married to the Internet that pretense is just fine with you?

Once again, It's just not true that bad/untrained guidance is as good as no guidance at all.

 

[LissaSue]

I am not ok with pretense. But there is going to have to be a point where you learn to relax a bit. If Lit wanted professional editors, then they would have asked for them.

As for looking at this from the writers side, I have been there myself. It's aggravating beyond belief to find out that you've changed something one way because someone told you to, only to find out that it's either supposed to be a completly different way or the way you had it in thei first place.

That said, not everyone can get the education in editing that you and others have. It's just not possible. So what is wrong with guiding them along, especially when they ask as the lady who started this thread was doing, without predjudices pushing them out? Do they not have the right to learn and grow?

While I commend you for standing up for the writer, I would have to say that, ultimatly, it is up to them what kind of editor they choose. Be it professional or other. Who knows, it may be benificial to them both to grow and develop together. I know I have personally learned a great deal about some of the editing techniques from a few of my writers.

 

[sr71plt]

I am not ok with pretense. But there is going to have to be a point where you learn to relax a bit. If Lit wanted professional editors, then they would have asked for them.

As for looking at this from the writers side, I have been there myself. It's aggravating beyond belief to find out that you've changed something one way because someone told you to, only to find out that it's either supposed to be a completly different way or the way you had it in thei first place.

That said, not everyone can get the education in editing that you and others have. It's just not possible. So what is wrong with guiding them along, especially when they ask as the lady who started this thread was doing, without predjudices pushing them out? Do they not have the right to learn and grow?

While I commend you for standing up for the writer, I would have to say that, ultimatly, it is up to them what kind of editor they choose. Be it professional or other. Who knows, it may be benificial to them both to grow and develop together. I know I have personally learned a great deal about some of the editing techniques from a few of my writers.

I've already responded to this. Perhaps you missed it.

If someone links with an editor, they have the right to expect a certain level of expertise. An editor is a profession. When you link with a surgeon, you don't expect to get a butcher.

But having been told they've been edited, writers here assume a certain level of expertise--more than they have themselves, usually--has been applied and that both what was edited is good to go (when quite often it's not) and that these are good principles to follow in the future (when quite often they're not).

So, if you want to help and you don't have minimal training to claim to be an editor, don't respond as if you are an editor. That would be a lie. Respond as a willing second reader and discussant of the story as just another budding writer (although it seems a lot of the "editors" here aren't even erotica writers).

I haven't said not to help. I've said not to lie and say you can give good help that you have no experience or training to give.

Once again, it simply isn't true that bad/untrained guidance is better than no guidance.

What I perceive has happened here is the disturbing of the nest of a whole bunch of pretenders who don't appreciate being told they are doing damage by pretending and misleading writers on what they can do for them.

I would imagine the hissing and counterattacking will go on for days.

And as far as being nice to the OP, I gave a neutral, helpful, I think, response to the first posting, and I was polite in the second response as well, although I did raise the question of whether she really wanted to get into something that she didn't sound like she had the least notion to do. I then went on to give a polite, full response to her question. And her response was both polite--and, I think, quite sensible. She realized there was more to it than she thought and was going to go prepare more to do it. I suggest her decision is something a whole lot of other folks should consider. She sounded quite honest about it all.

Just because writers here need editorial help doesn't mean that fake nonhelp should be a good answer to the problem. Nor is disparaging the responses, backed up with authoritative citations, of real editors simply to protect a fake editor's house of cards a "good" thing.

But this certainly seems to have stirred up a nest of something else.

 

[Great_Brit]

... Fakes. Pretending to be able to do something they aren't trained to do. ...

... If someone links with an editor, they have the right to expect a certain level of expertise. An editor is a profession. When you link with a surgeon, you don't expect to get a butcher. ...

Can I transpose this to the authorship area?

If someone links with a writer, they have the right to expect a certain level of expertise. A writer is a profession. When you link with a surgeon, you don't expect to get a butcher.

Put like that, very few writers on Lit have any right to offer any stories to the public to read, authorship being "something they aren't trained to do".

This is a free site which will post pretty well anything anyone wants to write. If you read a story provided free of charge there are no guarantees of quality. Similarly if you go to a VOLUNTEER editor you take pot luck - some can help - some can hinder.

I suggest that perhaps SR would be much happier on a forum where only qualified professional writers are allowed to post and only qualified professional editors are allowed to edit. Clearly he or she is being driven mad by having all these unqualified contributors disagreeing with him or her.

I am, however, curious what would make a writer "qualified" and why such a person would need any editing?

 

[sr71plt]

Yeah, I would expect Great Brit (or whatever Snooper is calling him/herself now) would be one of the hissers. Quite a little flim flam he/she had going for a while.

I already gave the opinion that most writing for Literotica don't need an editor for what they want to do (and that most writers here don't bother with the fig leaf)--that having one isn't the insurance they thought it was. At least from some of those calling themselves editors here.

 

[Great_Brit]

Yeah, I would expect Great Brit (or whatever Snooper is calling him/herself now) would be one of the hissers. Quite a little flim flam he/she had going for a while. ...

Argument ad hominem is an admission that the disputant has no valid points to make.

 

[PennLady]

I think the problem here is that someone wants to edit, and then essentially asks "How do I edit?" That's no way to start editing.

I am not a professional editor, but have some experience with it, both in having people edit mine, and having worked for fifteen years in a publishing company. My job was not specifically to edit, but I did various things that required editing, or me to look them over. I also think when I was in school, more time was spent on grammar and punctuation basics and I remember those. Although anything I am not sure about, I research or ask someone.

I always tell my readers that I'm not a pro editor, nor have I ever been, so if they're not satisfied with my editing, I don't mind if they go elsewhere.

It's great that people volunteer to edit, and it's true that it can be a crap shoot in finding one who will respond to you. Still, as SR has noted, anyone can say they want to edit. But if you're going to do that, you should have some grounding in the basics.

 

[sr71plt]

Argument ad hominem is an admission that the disputant has no valid points to make.

I'm sure you had your eyes closed, your hands over your ears, and were la-la-la-laing during all of the posts containing my argument.

And your post here is an example of what you claim.

 

[Sudders]

I think the problem here is that someone wants to edit, and then essentially asks "How do I edit?" That's no way to start editing.

I agree, and as the OP I would like to say that I realised that I was in the wrong after only a couple of replies.

Thanks for your responses.
I have decided to remove my name from the editor program and find a course that will make me into an editor an author would want to have.
It seems that that would be the suitable solution to my above questions.

However, I do find it amusing that an innocent question, no matter how ill-advised, has created such a heated discussion.

I am very interested in the English language and was once studying it at university before I got very ill and was no longer able to pursue it. I guess I was hoping I would be able to get involved on this site to reignite a spark and passion for writing.

I am well aware now that this is not the place to be doing that. It is one thing to submit a story and another to help others when you don't have the skills to be doing so.

Hopefully I'll be back on the volunteer editor list in the future and will have the ability as well as the predilection.

Oh and so I don't forget to say...

Wow... this is a heated thread. I have to speak up:

First, the person who started this thread, did so because I asked her to edit my Erotic Horror Story. Within 1 hour of accepting the story, I got an email from her apologizing and saying she was going to withdraw from Literotica.

I would have been more than happy to have her look at my work, even without credentials, or a degree. Even if all she had done was change the color on the text when she edited without any sort of editing program.

Hell, I emailed 8 people on that damned editor list searching for one.. and she was the only one to respond as of yet, days later.

~Purr

Thank you.

 

[AsylumSeeker]

I agree, and as the OP I would like to say that I realised that I was in the wrong after only a couple of replies.



However, I do find it amusing that an innocent question, no matter how ill-advised, has created such a heated discussion.

I am very interested in the English language and was once studying it at university before I got very ill and was no longer able to pursue it. I guess I was hoping I would be able to get involved on this site to reignite a spark and passion for writing.

I am well aware now that this is not the place to be doing that. It is one thing to submit a story and another to help others when you don't have the skills to be doing so.

Hopefully I'll be back on the volunteer editor list in the future and will have the ability as well as the predilection.

Oh and so I don't forget to say...



Thank you.

Well done, Sudders. You have shown more class than anyone else who has "contributed" (and I use this term loosely) to this thread.

You asked a question and unleashed a tirade. Please don't lose your interest in editing. There are writers who you can connect with, and I can say from experience, it can be rewarding. Don't allow a bad "first experience" at Lit to drive you away.

Hoping you hang around despite the beat-down.

 

[sr71plt]

What beat down? Sudders didn't receive any beat down here.

And here's what I said about the thread before others started off on me--and Sudders was gone by then:

And as far as being nice to the OP, I gave a neutral, helpful, I think, response to the first posting, and I was polite in the second response as well, although I did raise the question of whether she really wanted to get into something that she didn't sound like she had the least notion to do. I then went on to give a polite, full response to her question. And her response was both polite--and, I think, quite sensible. She realized there was more to it than she thought and was going to go prepare more to do it. I suggest her decision is something a whole lot of other folks should consider. She sounded quite honest about it all.

This thread isn't about Sudders. It's a about the next of pretenders that was disturbed.

 

[AsylumSeeker]

Let's Beat This Dead Horse

Virgins shouldn't be offering their assistance to an unwitting public, AS. As some point in time, I'd think that would sink in with you.

Virgins should have their virginity removed and get the proper credentials before putting out their shingles. Otherwise they could be honest with the writers and volunteer to be a reader and to give just their uneducated opinions--clearly identifying them as such.

Short of that they are being frauds to writers who assume they have expertise that they don't.

The credo of editing is "first do no harm."

SR, when you first joined Lit were you not also a "Virgin"? Did you not, also at the same time, possess editing skills? Based upon your own statement you should have been disallowed from editing due to your "Virgin" status at Literotica. I'm not sure how making a certain number of posts "trains" someone to become an editor.

Hey, I'm no college graduate. I fought in wars, have a ton of life experience, but nothing on lambskin. So maybe I shouldn't be editing either, but the writers I edit for respect what I do. I have no training but I have a knack for it. I'm sure that sends shivers down your spine.

Look, all I'm asking is that we all be reasonable. Being a "Virgin" doesn't mean anything except that either a person is new to Lit, has changed their handle, or never visitis the forums.

I am onboard with your idea about a "test" of sorts for editors. Me and LadyC went numerous rounds over the subject, perhaps you may recall. And then also about changing the "Water Cooler" to a "Welcome Mat". All good ideas, but unreasonable in their implementation, apparently.

As has already been pointed out this is Lit, not a publishing house. Chill, dude. I've learned to like and respect you but I also have a voice and an opinon to express.

And by the way SR, pay attention to your own credo. Coming after a virgin has the potential of doing plenty of harm.

 

[sr71plt]

You're posting nonsense and I did not go after the OP. I answered her questions, suggested the foundation of the questions she was asking wasn't a place to begin as an editor--but still answered her questions--and she agreed and declared she was going to do the sensible thing.

This scenario has now been played four times. As it happened, and three times with my explanation of denial to other posters trying to tear at me who are claiming something happened that didn't happen (to try to cover their own butts).

Stop trying to make something out of it that didn't happen. That dog won't bark.

The answer to how you become an editor is to learn the basics of editing and to work from there; it's not just to hang your shingle out and start advertising expertise you don't have. Sudders quickly got this. Others here are reacting because they have no intention of doing what Sudders quickly understood was the real answer to her question.

 

[Darkniciad]

It's a about the next of pretenders that was disturbed.

*nest

Yes, I'm an asshole

I'm not going to join the back and forth, because I think both sides are too rigid. There's a place for people with no formal training, but there's also a need for some oversight of the editors ( a lump designation on Lit for everything from actual editing down to first readers )

 

[sr71plt]

*nest

Yes, I'm an asshole

I'm not going to join the back and forth, because I think both sides are too rigid. There's a place for people with no formal training, but there's also a need for some oversight of the editors ( a lump designation on Lit for everything from actual editing down to first readers )

Do I have to point out to you too that repeatedly I've said it isn't about giving the help or not; it's about being honest about what sort of help you have the training and experience to give?

There are a bunch of folks here who want to lord it over the writers here by pretending that they have credentials they don't have--and that they are too lazy to get. I think of them as the easy button crew. And their guidance screws the writers' development up.

And, feeling threatened, they rag on those who can actually be helpful.

 

[AsylumSeeker]

*nest

Yes, I'm an asshole

I'm not going to join the back and forth, because I think both sides are too rigid. There's a place for people with no formal training, but there's also a need for some oversight of the editors ( a lump designation on Lit for everything from actual editing down to first readers )

I formed my response carefully, I thought, so as not to ruffle any feathers.

That being said, I agree with Dark. Perhaps there should be a class system for editors, not that I believe it will ever happen.

Didn't mean to spike you BP SR, really I didn't. As I said I like and respect you. All I'm asking is that you go easy on the Virgins, you were one once yourself.

 

[lovecraft68]

Do I have to point out to you too that repeatedly I've said it isn't about giving the help or not; it's about being honest about what sort of help you have the training and experience to give?

See Pilot it is all in your tone, seriously. The old expression say what you mean, mean what you say, but don't say it mean. You are knowledgeable but come off as cocky rather than knowledgeable. You are condescending in your replies and whether you would like to believe it or not people pick up on it. You are also continuously chest thumping which is a turn off as well.

Great you have a degree and are a professional. This is an amateur site and the word volunteer says you get what you pay for. The amateur writers learn as do the editors we learn together. People have to start somewhere and you have a habit of beating them before they get going.

Of course if they will let you do it and walk away with their heads down I guess it says something about them and they would not last anyway but you have no write to try to vet who can can't, should or shouldn't.

You and I do not get along, and I have to tell you I will take some blame there but the more I drift through these posts the more people I see you having problems with. Difference is I am over the top and should not be taken seriously I just rant along. You deliberately fuck with people. Anyway just my two cents, you can pay it or find a volunteer to tell you that you can be a real dink for free.

 

[sr71plt]

All I'm asking is that you go easy on the Virgins, you were one once yourself.

And, dammit, for the fifth time I declare that I did go easy on the OP. And I answered her questions, which is more than you or much of anyone else did.

This is a false charge. You and others are trying to cover your own butts--and putting Sudders forth as a false sacrifice in attempting to do so.

 

[sr71plt]

See Pilot it is all in your tone, seriously.

And you are a buzzard nursing hurt feelings of not being able to rise from the mediocre or escape your deep-seated prejudices and crazy hypocrisies.

How's that for tone?

 

[PurrfectMoon]

See Pilot it is all in your tone, seriously. The old expression say what you mean, mean what you say, but don't say it mean. You are knowledgeable but come off as cocky rather than knowledgeable. You are condescending in your replies and whether you would like to believe it or not people pick up on it. You are also continuously chest thumping which is a turn off as well.

Great you have a degree and are a professional. This is an amateur site and the word volunteer says you get what you pay for. The amateur writers learn as do the editors we learn together. People have to start somewhere and you have a habit of beating them before they get going.

.

I agree with this person's sentiments wholeheartedly.

 

[sr71plt]

I agree with this person's sentiments wholeheartedly.

Well, we already know that you don't care what someone does to your stories as long as you can claim you had an editor.

And all of this tone business, anyway, is just the old Internet fallacy that everyone is equal on the Internet. You don't really want help from those with the expertise to help; you want to pull everyone down to the lowest common denominator to satisfy the "everyone is equal on the Internet" chest nut. And, should anyone have the gall to exhibit expertise in something, it's time for everyone else to jump on them and try to pull them down. To call them uppity and pompous and cocky.

 

[AsylumSeeker]

And, dammit, for the fifth time I declare that I did go easy on the OP. And I answered her questions, which is more than you or much of anyone else did.

This is a false charge. You and others are trying to cover your own butts--and putting Sudders forth as a false sacrifice in attempting to do so.

Apparently the dead horse I kicked was bloated, and a swarm of flies flew out.

SR, I was not making any "charges" and don't understand why you have interpreted what I have said as such. There's no need to get defensive, I thought we were conversing on a friendly basis. I was just trying to make my opinion known in a kind way, which has failed.

But okay, life goes on. Enough said.

I know I've been a jackass in the past but I'm trying to become a better person.