Being a woman in geek culture

[Stella_Omega]

And yet it's very common, isn't it? Some might even say it's a necessary element of the polarization that creates sexual tension.

they would be wrong. But anything else takes thought, at least-- at this time in our culture.

Earlier tonight I watched a movie, Oblivion, the sci fi flick with Tom Cruise. There was a scene that made me smirk, where they were being chased by enemies while flying in their bubble ship. Tom is looking determined and focused and stressed and all that stuff, and his female beau is looking at him with great vulnerability and expectation, clearly interested in what he's going to do to save the day. I'm not sure why this scene in particular struck me as so nauseatingly cliche, because it demonstrates a dynamic that shows up in almost every action movie at some point. Hero and damsel.

because it is a cliche, and it is nauseating. So congratulations on noticing it.

It's easy. It sells. It's what the people want.

Easy yes. Sells, certainly. But a significant portion of 'the people' don't want it-- not if you count women as people.

Smaller demographics have received better service and more respect.

 

[KoPilot]

Men and women are different, of course. It's just funny how, for a while there, men convinced themselves that larger, more aggressive, and shorter-lived meant 'superior' - when clearly it means 'expendable.'

They've definitely managed to cultivate an entire culture of "expendable = glorious" though. Live fast and die young gets you famous and admired. Not exclusive to men, of course, but it's an "option" that's generally more easily available to them. Entertainers, athletes, etc are prime candidates. See also 'how much we love our serial killers'.

And, furthermore (what i think you mean by the differences being 'insignificant') that individual variation can completely eclipse the sex-sorted difference.

I'm talking about stuff like "men have better spacial awareness". People extrapolate all kinds of mythological shit from that like how men make better architects, physicists or better drivers or w/e.

 

[Stella_Omega]

They've definitely managed to cultivate an entire culture of "expendable = glorious" though. Live fast and die young gets you famous and admired. Not exclusive to men, of course, but it's an "option" that's generally more easily available to them. Entertainers, athletes, etc are prime candidates. See also 'how much we love our serial killers'.



I'm talking about stuff like "men have better spacial awareness". People extrapolate all kinds of mythological shit from that like how men make better architects, physicists or better drivers or w/e.

Testosterone is enabling me to be a better couch potato. I know, almost instinctively where the sofa is behind me as I plop down on it...

 

[BrightlyGo]

They've definitely managed to cultivate an entire culture of "expendable = glorious" though. Live fast and die young gets you famous and admired. Not exclusive to men, of course, but it's an "option" that's generally more easily available to them.

Yep, high-risk tends to equal high-reward, and a population can't recover from the loss of a lot of it's women to ill-advised high-risk behavior (like, oh, war) the way it can from the loss of a lot of men. Makes it hard to come up with workable fantasy-Amazon cultures (a minor obsession of mine since i was a kid, fwiw).

I'm talking about stuff like "men have better spacial awareness". People extrapolate all kinds of mythological shit from that like how men make better architects, physicists or better drivers or w/e.

Nod. There's no one aptitude that is so all-important to a given skill or career as that would imply if it were true. Plus, individual variation. You don't ever want me driving, for instance, even though my spacial awareness is fine (i can always tell how big a tupperware container i need to hold leftovers without wasting space in the refrigerator - hey, it's spacial awareness...).

 

[KoPilot]

Yep, high-risk tends to equal high-reward, and a population can't recover from the loss of a lot of it's women to ill-advised high-risk behavior (like, oh, war) the way it can from the loss of a lot of men. Makes it hard to come up with workable fantasy-Amazon cultures (a minor obsession of mine since i was a kid, fwiw).


Nod. There's no one aptitude that is so all-important to a given skill or career as that would imply if it were true. Plus, individual variation. You don't ever want me driving, for instance, even though my spacial awareness is fine (i can always tell how big a tupperware container i need to hold leftovers without wasting space in the refrigerator - hey, it's spacial awareness...).

Yeah, same. You don't want me in the car because dozens of moving objects that I have to keep track of is stimulation overload for me, but plop me down in neighborhood I've never been at night, and I can find my way around. The first few times I went to NYC, I was able to get around by landmark and navigating by the sun, I swear.

But yeah, not that I don't think the chest-thumping expendability of men is bad (dying in a coal mine isn't manly, it's tragic), but it's interesting how it's been turned into this narrative of stoic heroism. Is there a difference between the way we talk about Jimi Hendrix vs. say Marilyn Monroe?

 

[Stella_Omega]

Is there a difference between the way we talk about Jimi Hendrix vs. say Marilyn Monroe?

AFAICT, nobody talks about how Hendrix died, they talk about how great he was on guitar-- what he could do. Because what men can do is what's important.

Marilyn, they talk about how she died, all the time. Oh, and how maybe she was attached to a great man.

 

[BrightlyGo]

But yeah, not that I don't think the chest-thumping expendability of men is bad (dying in a coal mine isn't manly, it's tragic), but it's interesting how it's been turned into this narrative of stoic heroism.

It does serve a sort of evolutionary purpose (not that evolution has purposes or anything - like 'average' abilities, that gets overblown a lot). Maybe that purpose has been obsolete for a long time, though.

Human beings - even male ones - are thinking animals, so just giving guys an impulse to take risks isn't enough if they stop and think about it too much. So cultures needed rationalizations for why men should go out and get themselves killed so their womenfolk & children could survive.

That is, itself, a rationalization.

Is there a difference between the way we talk about Jimi Hendrix vs. say Marilyn Monroe?

Differences and similarities. Both are spoken of as icons, with a sense of awe. Those who remember them do so vividly. But, Hendrix was known for a skill (and, as i understand it, part of it was just happening to have freakishly large hands?), Monroe for an image she cultivated. Actually, now that i think of it that way, it's not that different. Being sexy the way she did it /is/ a skill.

Both died of barbiturate overdoses, which was a popular way to die, for a while, there. Monroe's death gets talked about because it was tragic /and suspicious/ - suicide, accident or murder, there no clear answer. Hendrix's death was ruled accidental and no great controversy surrounds it, so just 'tragic.'

 

[Bramblethorn]

AFAICT, nobody talks about how Hendrix died, they talk about how great he was on guitar-- what he could do. Because what men can do is what's important.

Marilyn, they talk about how she died, all the time. Oh, and how maybe she was attached to a great man.

Hm. People do talk a lot about how Cobain died, and I think Brandon Lee is better known now for his death than for what he did while alive; OTOH, I think there are specific reasons for those, so your general point may still be valid. (A lot of Cobain's work foreshadowed his death in a way that Hendrix and Monroe didn't; Lee died making an iconic gothic movie about death, plus, family history and conspiracy theories.)

I do find it interesting to see how people react to non-celebrity deaths. When a man dies doing something dangerous (military, extreme sports, Steve Irwin, whatever) he's generally portrayed as a guy who knew the risks and accepted them, and applauded for having the courage to live on his own terms.

When a woman dies doing something far less dangerous (like, say, walking home alone at 1am in Brunswick), there's an assumption that she clearly didn't know the risks or she wouldn't have done it because why would a woman ever accept a risk when there's a safer option? Hey, we'd better tell women that this stuff is dangerous since they still haven't got the message.

 

[Thelightreborn]

I promise I am not being cheeky but can someone tell me what is geek culture? By it's own stereo typical definition it sounds like something that would welcome as many women as possible, no?

 

[Stella_Omega]

I promise I am not being cheeky but can someone tell me what is geek culture? By it's own stereo typical definition it sounds like something that would welcome as many women as possible, no?

Sadly no-- as you can infer from the discussion here.

I mean-- Sure, if the women are naked and willing, like in the comic books. But geek girls are no more naked and willing than any other subcultures of girls. Less in fact, for a lot of women, who manifest the same asbergers/poorly socialised behaviors as the boys do, and many geek types expect the world to run by the rules we have created in our heads.

 

[Ruby_Atom]

I was going to chime in on the debate, but everyone else seems to be already doing a good job

I'll throw in my $0.02 on the original poster's questions.

What are your thoughts about this?

Have you experienced sexism in geek culture due to your gender?

How do YOU deal with it?

My feeling is that a lot of anti-girl geek sentiments are largely confined to the US. Is this true? I don't live in the US and have not experienced any of the negativity that I hear about.

Where I live, female geeks are certainly a minority, but at least from my experience in my social group, there hasn't been any hostility that I am aware of. However, what I have seen is plenty of "Wow! It's a girl who's into roleplaying/gaming/comics/etc! That's cool." In a gaming club I was part of during university (basically anything except computer games - wargaming, roleplaying, board games), when a new girl showed up, everyone was generally very nice and welcoming to her, and actively trying not to scare her off. So my conclusion is that while females were being treated differently, they weren't treated badly.

I think that once there is a critical mass of female geeks, they won't be such an unusual sighting anymore, and the vocal assholes complaining about them will fade into the background. Of course, if someone is treated with hostility when engaging in their hobby, it's not going to help the cause. Maybe the best way to deal with it is to just crush it the moment it rears its ugly head.

 

[BrightlyGo]

My feeling is that a lot of anti-girl geek sentiments are largely confined to the US. Is this true? I don't live in the US and have not experienced any of the negativity that I hear about.

Where I live, female geeks are certainly a minority, but at least from my experience in my social group, there hasn't been any hostility that I am aware of. However, what I have seen is plenty of "Wow! It's a girl who's into roleplaying/gaming/comics/etc! That's cool." In a gaming club I was part of during university (basically anything except computer games - wargaming, roleplaying, board games), when a new girl showed up, everyone was generally very nice and welcoming to her, and actively trying not to scare her off. So my conclusion is that while females were being treated differently, they weren't treated badly.

Maybe it is a US thing, but 'differently' on some level can be 'badly,' even if its not hostile. What i see, and i'm just witnessing it, not suffering it, is more lack of respect than open hostility. But, then, the nerd stuff we're into is mostly in-person, on-line can be a lot less polite.

 

[Noor]

I was at a gaming party with a bunch of geeks the other night, including some scantily clad woman, playing crimes against humanity and no one was disrespectful or anything. Most of the people knew each other so maybe that is why.

The cons I got to you get occasional problems but it's not much worse than general society. I have a real problem with comics, anime and movies depictions of women.

What If Male Superheroes’ Costumes Were Designed Like Female Superheroes’ Costumes?

 

[Ropebunny]

I concur with Ruby_Atom in terms of negativity towards female geeks being more widespread in the US. In my little corner of the world I can't say I've ever been treated badly by other geeky guys for being female. I have from other 'cliques' of guys that were not geeky, but never geeks.

That's not to say I haven't been treated differently. There were the offers to buy me things, comments on how cute I looked, lending me things and mansplaining galore. I do genuinely believe however, that lack of association with females was to blame with that, along with other non-geek females taking advantage of them during many of the few interactions that I witnessed.

I have also never met a real-life geek that had responded badly when I've told them I didn't like how I was being treated.


Online though, totally different kettle of fish....

 

[Thelightreborn]

You like what you like. It's supposed to be for everyone. If someone says you can't like it then forget em.

 

[KoPilot]

I concur with Ruby_Atom in terms of negativity towards female geeks being more widespread in the US. In my little corner of the world I can't say I've ever been treated badly by other geeky guys for being female. I have from other 'cliques' of guys that were not geeky, but never geeks.

That's not to say I haven't been treated differently. There were the offers to buy me things, comments on how cute I looked, lending me things and mansplaining galore. I do genuinely believe however, that lack of association with females was to blame with that, along with other non-geek females taking advantage of them during many of the few interactions that I witnessed.

I have also never met a real-life geek that had responded badly when I've told them I didn't like how I was being treated.


Online though, totally different kettle of fish....

I've never had anything directed at me by other geeks? But I've been in plenty of situations, even around people I knew very well (and lived with) where they would say some really dumb, sexist stuff in a generalized sort of way.

I think the trailer for the upcoming Kickass 2 is a pretty good summary of how this sort of thing tends to play out (that fucking author-- gag), and especially with internalized stuff.

And I will pretty readily admit that I definitely feel like there's more open hostility when it comes to guys who've never dated, even if it's not of the "women are depriving me of my god-given right to pussy" variety. It literally incubates the idea that women are different, alien beings incapable of being fully understood by the menfolk (and that the only way to understand them to the best of your ability is to fuck them) that society so loves to impress on people.

 

[satindesire]

I was at a gaming party with a bunch of geeks the other night, including some scantily clad woman, playing crimes against humanity and no one was disrespectful or anything. Most of the people knew each other so maybe that is why.

The cons I got to you get occasional problems but it's not much worse than general society. I have a real problem with comics, anime and movies depictions of women.

What If Male Superheroes’ Costumes Were Designed Like Female Superheroes’ Costumes?

Aw, Gawd, that link is BRILLIANT. Bookmarking!

 

[Keroin]

Aw, Gawd, that link is BRILLIANT. Bookmarking!

It was awesome.

Jim C Hines also does hilarious cover poses imitating SF/F book covers. (He uses this to raise money for his favourite charity - yay, Jim!)

Here's the blog post that started it all:

Striking a Pose

And his famous Pose-Off with John Scalzi

And a group cover pose.

 

[Recidiva]

It's changed through time, there have been benefits and drawbacks.

I started playing computer games when my father had one of the first computers and he worked for IBM. Started with a floppy disc with Adventure on it. Moved on to Zork, Wizardry...all solo exploits.

I was a Star Trek fan for my childhood in isolation and I just collected books and Fanzines and even a mail order tribble.

When I joined an actual community it was an online roleplay game, The Shadow of Yserbius on The Sierra Network. Male and Female community, highly roleplay, and your cred had to do with how well you played a part, if you were female and played guys well, good. Most people didn't know your actual gender, but it wasn't that big a deal. Very intelligent community, the first people who owned computers and knew how to use them. Tight group, lots of real-life get-togethers, which dispelled any sense of "outlier" and it seemed gamers were (in general) just normal people.

Moving on to Everquest and more highly attended games, there was a drop in IQ and quality of roleplay and moved more into loot...

Bright spot! Bioware makes games with social content and gender neutrality or at least interchangeability.

Overall I found the gamer community about the same as the regular community. Every now and then there would be an idiot that believed that girl gamer geeks were all males in drag.

High point: The best mates in my opinion are gamers, and I'm with a guy I met in Yserbius, who plays female characters often because he thinks if he's gonna have to stare at an ass, it might as well be a nice one in his opinion.

At least now I can play games as a female and I'm not forced to be a hyper-male protagonist.

And the clothes are better. Instead of wearing a silk bikini as a naked dark elf trying to get back to the clothes on my corpse, which are probably the equivalent of a teddy in Everquest...I can now choose more reasonable battle outfits in most games.

As for being a Star Trek fan...I think J.J. Abrams should be shot. That's probably gender neutral.

 

[Recidiva]

If you haven't seen it...Wil Wheaton's advice to a baby girl...why it's awesome to be a nerd.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_BtmV4JRSc

 

[satindesire]

If you haven't seen it...Wil Wheaton's advice to a baby girl...why it's awesome to be a nerd.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_BtmV4JRSc

Man it's nice to see you again! We have not had a minute to catch up in a long time!

Great video, I love Wil Wheaton!

 

[Recidiva]

Man it's nice to see you again! We have not had a minute to catch up in a long time!

Great video, I love Wil Wheaton!

*pouncehug*

 

[satindesire]

*pouncehug*

*glomp!* How are you? How is your husband? How has your health been lately? What games have you been playing these days? Am I asking too many questions? Should I stop now? Okay, I'll stop.

 

[Recidiva]

*glomp!* How are you? How is your husband? How has your health been lately? What games have you been playing these days? Am I asking too many questions? Should I stop now? Okay, I'll stop.

I am well! He is excellent! My health has been awesome! I played through all of Skyrim and expansions without cheating even once and I want to marry Brynjolf 'cause he has a sexy voice! I'm replaying through all of Dragon Age and looking at what they're gonna do in Dragon Age 3 and thinking I'm totally screwed! Still playing Warcraft and EQ2 daily. Nevah! No!

And how are you?

 

[satindesire]

Are Male Allies "Just trying to get laid"?

http://feminspire.com/are-male-allies-just-trying-to-get-laid/

"The attack on male feminist allies is hurtful for four reasons: 1. It dismisses the legitimacy of feminism (what man would support it unless they’re trying to get some?); 2. It reduces masculinity into the tired trope that men are only interested in sex; 3. It often entails emasculating and homophobic gender policing; and 4. It discourages male involvement. The maintenance of male domination entails a lot of strict gender role monitoring, many boys and men may not want to put up with the harassment and will stay silent or steer clear altogether.

Newsflash guys: some men really are interested in social justice, and not because of any personal reward. In case you weren’t aware, many feminist women are not the easiest for patriarchal men to get along with. We hold our male friends and romantic partners up to a higher standard of integrity. It’s not as easy as posting a pro-feminist statement in a forum and then sitting back and waiting on the feminists to storm your house in a hormone-driven frenzy. The feminists I know are attracted to men who understand the issues, who care about the issues, and who fight for the issues. It’s not something easily faked, trust me."