Biderman's Chart of Coercion
- Thread starter s'lara
- Start date
shy slave
Literotica Guru
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sunfox said:Oooh, can I be the Contessa of the Tornado Prone Hillsides?
Shy, I swear, you attract the strangest people.I want someone to tell me they expect me to address them as Sir! For some reason, they never do. *sulks*
Who, me, attract strange people
Is it true like attracts like???
graceanne
iteroticalay urugay
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- Jun 22, 2004
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Netzach said:If you fall prostrate on your slave mat and beg properly I'll consider it.
I so would. But we would kill each other fighting for the bathroom.
Slave mat? I have a slave mat? Where?
Oh, true enough. *sigh* There goes that idea.
Gallant Man
Experienced
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- May 5, 2005
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shy slave said:Point proved.
I attract weird people and
Like attracts like
You responded to my post, seems I attract weird people, always have. Weird is much more interesting than normal! Interesting that there was hardly any response to my thoughts but that one comment got a response. I'm always interested to see the response, good to see your enjoying a laugh. Sir is not a big deal where I come from, just a title similar to Mr.
Don't think I like the Gallant Man name. About the wedding, hope you live happily ever after.
Now about that Biderman stuff...
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Netzach
>semiotics?
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- Mar 3, 2003
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I, Dame Netz, will argue that whether you are D or s you are probably as likely as anyone else to succumb to Biderman's list of coercion tactics. To suggest otherwise is to basically paint Dominants as abuse-proof and submissives as abuse waiting to happen.
Knowing the numbers of Dominants and switches and non-submissives who have been abused or coerced against our will at some point in our lives, I don't think this is the case. I don't think a submissive orientation makes someone more or less cult-prone either -- the amusing fanaticism with which some Dominants cling to beliefs or conventions make me think they'd be great cult members as well as leaders.
Knowing the numbers of Dominants and switches and non-submissives who have been abused or coerced against our will at some point in our lives, I don't think this is the case. I don't think a submissive orientation makes someone more or less cult-prone either -- the amusing fanaticism with which some Dominants cling to beliefs or conventions make me think they'd be great cult members as well as leaders.
E
esclave_PP
Guest
Netzach said:
Well said, and I like your name, oh Great Goddess of the Fertile Plain.
And KC your claws are lovely dahling...pull 'em out
shadowvoid
Experienced
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2005
- Posts
- 70
~
hmmm .... that chart evokes emotions of great rage ....
the abuse of power, and all that jazz,
even, in DV cases, abusive relationships,
i have seen them, or shadows of them, too often,
now, in a dom/sub relation, in the submitting of one's
will to another's, ... when a lover gives herself to me,
.... i want it, need it, crave it, as a gift .....
not something i work towards, or manipulate out of her,
coerce, or as much as it seems common, to train,
hmmm .... i hunger for the gift, of her vulnerable submitting
to my desire, to my hunger, to my feeding upon her tender
delicate sensitive, her most sensitive, ......
not something that this systematic breaking down of another's
will could ever achieve, rather, as an assertion of her will to
submit, .... not the denial of her will ....... rather the exact opposite,
i hunger for her to give herself to me, fully, wholy completely,
as a conscious act of will,
i want to know feel live taste drink of her true soul's desire,
(not mine imposed upon her),
i need this, energetically, to feed and replenish my own energy,
a sharing of energy,
a communing of the deepest of places,
a joining of the core of our being,
even the barest most minute distinction,
between her will (alone) to submit, and mine forced upon her,
*even a gentle force, is a force, no less*
this is of a dramatically different nature and spirit,
than a pure pure *pure* giving,
it *must* come solely fully and completely ... from her ...
......... from her heart .........
anything less, will never satiate me,
a subtle, yet profound, distinction,
shadow,
hmmm .... that chart evokes emotions of great rage ....
the abuse of power, and all that jazz,
even, in DV cases, abusive relationships,
i have seen them, or shadows of them, too often,
now, in a dom/sub relation, in the submitting of one's
will to another's, ... when a lover gives herself to me,
.... i want it, need it, crave it, as a gift .....
not something i work towards, or manipulate out of her,
coerce, or as much as it seems common, to train,
hmmm .... i hunger for the gift, of her vulnerable submitting
to my desire, to my hunger, to my feeding upon her tender
delicate sensitive, her most sensitive, ......
not something that this systematic breaking down of another's
will could ever achieve, rather, as an assertion of her will to
submit, .... not the denial of her will ....... rather the exact opposite,
i hunger for her to give herself to me, fully, wholy completely,
as a conscious act of will,
i want to know feel live taste drink of her true soul's desire,
(not mine imposed upon her),
i need this, energetically, to feed and replenish my own energy,
a sharing of energy,
a communing of the deepest of places,
a joining of the core of our being,
even the barest most minute distinction,
between her will (alone) to submit, and mine forced upon her,
*even a gentle force, is a force, no less*
this is of a dramatically different nature and spirit,
than a pure pure *pure* giving,
it *must* come solely fully and completely ... from her ...
......... from her heart .........
anything less, will never satiate me,
a subtle, yet profound, distinction,
shadow,
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Private_Label
In the kink toddler pool
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- Jun 5, 2005
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- 1,054
Interesting read, s'lara...
I see this as more of a sign of an abusive relationship than a D/s one. If you are depriving the sub of the "choice" to voluntarily spend time with the D, then it really isn't Consensual. In which case it is abuse should be setting off the red flags.
Sometimes. If a dom ever "forbid" me from reading what material I chose, that would be a "dealbreaker" for me. And another red flag.
If sub has employment outside the home (in these times many families are two income just to survive) this isn't a realistic option. Withholding of Chocolate is inhumane treatment and forbidden in the D/s version of the Geneva convention.
Depends on the type of threat. Threat of physical abuse (that was outside of consensual agreement) would have me walking out the door and ending the relationship. Too much cultivation of despair probably would have me walking too... Anxiety under the right set of circumstances might be effective on me.
Positive motivation would work a whole lot better than negative motivation in this I think. Although there is a fine line between just enough and too little to make a difference.
If the Dom doesn't have enough proof of that without the need for the Dom to "demonstrate" it, then I think the relationship needs some serious work. A dom only has as much omnipotence as a sub is willing to concede. If the dom has to "force" (non-consentual) submission, that in my book is abuse, and a red flag on the relationship.
This I think will work in a D/s setting.
Um... what about us humiliation sluts who get off on being degraded?
Other than that... wait... *mumbles* "capitulation... resistance" while weighing same in hands*
Uh... I think I am going to ask for a "cost of resistance" example here... because looking from the outside of BDSM into a D/s relationship - captiulation can appear to be degrading.
*Example:* Collar and leash - inside a D/s relationship the collar is "positive" motivator for the sub/slave, when looked at from the outside it is seen as being "degrading" to the slave. Lack of capitulation (i.e. not wearing a collar when requested, per pre-established agreement) usually means the relationship needs some discussing between affected parties.
I will agree that when a D/s relationship is looked at by people who are on the "outside" (i.e. have little understanding of BDSM) all the listed items "appear" to be in place in terms of "breaking someone's will" however... it is my understanding that most Dominants do not desire to break a submissive's will, but to have the submissive take the position out of desire and enjoyment and keeping the "spirit & will" intact. One who capitulates out of defeat & broken will may also fail to react to additional punishments/enticements. (i.e. winces, groans, wiggling, etc.)
I see this as more of a sign of an abusive relationship than a D/s one. If you are depriving the sub of the "choice" to voluntarily spend time with the D, then it really isn't Consensual. In which case it is abuse should be setting off the red flags.
Sometimes. If a dom ever "forbid" me from reading what material I chose, that would be a "dealbreaker" for me. And another red flag.
If sub has employment outside the home (in these times many families are two income just to survive) this isn't a realistic option. Withholding of Chocolate is inhumane treatment and forbidden in the D/s version of the Geneva convention.
Depends on the type of threat. Threat of physical abuse (that was outside of consensual agreement) would have me walking out the door and ending the relationship. Too much cultivation of despair probably would have me walking too... Anxiety under the right set of circumstances might be effective on me.
Positive motivation would work a whole lot better than negative motivation in this I think. Although there is a fine line between just enough and too little to make a difference.
If the Dom doesn't have enough proof of that without the need for the Dom to "demonstrate" it, then I think the relationship needs some serious work. A dom only has as much omnipotence as a sub is willing to concede. If the dom has to "force" (non-consentual) submission, that in my book is abuse, and a red flag on the relationship.
This I think will work in a D/s setting.
Um... what about us humiliation sluts who get off on being degraded?
Other than that... wait... *mumbles* "capitulation... resistance" while weighing same in hands*
Uh... I think I am going to ask for a "cost of resistance" example here... because looking from the outside of BDSM into a D/s relationship - captiulation can appear to be degrading.
*Example:* Collar and leash - inside a D/s relationship the collar is "positive" motivator for the sub/slave, when looked at from the outside it is seen as being "degrading" to the slave. Lack of capitulation (i.e. not wearing a collar when requested, per pre-established agreement) usually means the relationship needs some discussing between affected parties.
I will agree that when a D/s relationship is looked at by people who are on the "outside" (i.e. have little understanding of BDSM) all the listed items "appear" to be in place in terms of "breaking someone's will" however... it is my understanding that most Dominants do not desire to break a submissive's will, but to have the submissive take the position out of desire and enjoyment and keeping the "spirit & will" intact. One who capitulates out of defeat & broken will may also fail to react to additional punishments/enticements. (i.e. winces, groans, wiggling, etc.)
Private_Label
In the kink toddler pool
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shadowvoid said:
<shivers> YES!!!!!!!!!
I think I like your explaination of the difference between Beiderman and a D/s relationship (or what a D/s relationship should be at it's highest flowering) best of all...
Betticus
FigDaddy!
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I googled the bidermans list for the full text. Interesting but somewhere in the middle of it while I was skimming it struck me that there seems to be a similarity to this kind of conditioning and some employers that I've worked for in the past.
For what it's worth, it was a momentary thing.
For what it's worth, it was a momentary thing.
catalina_francisco
Happily insatiable always
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- Jul 29, 2002
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Bump?
