Commas and semi colons

[lance gt]

IMO and only IMO, I like to use punctuation when necessary, but keep it as simple as I can, because to me, using multiple types of punctuation starts confusing a reader and they'd rather read the story, than figure out length of pause, or inclusions of thought.

KISS, to me is they best way to go, in most cases, unless you're writing in technical, or legal terms. It is only erotica we're writing and the readers aren't all that technical savvy to know the difference, or usage of most of the punctuation used.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

Wow. I've never heard of such a thing. I think people should punctuate as necessary, and according the standard rules, no matter if it's in a print book or online. Why should punctuation in Lit stories be "kept to a minimum"? That makes no sense to me. You mentioned readability in your post, but surely proper punctuation contributes to that.

Punctuation only appeared with the Wittenberg press half a millenium ago as printer's marks to replace spaces in hand-written and illuminated manuscripts.

It is not grammar or holy scripture - just a mechanism to make a text readable when printed. Sure, publishing houses have house styles but this is mechanics, not grammar.

The nuance between semi-colon and colon is barely understood by writers, let alone readers, even amongst talented writers, and a mystery to their readers. Full stops and commas are best understood. They work well.

sr confuses grammar with punctuation but, bless him, he is still with us so far.

 

[PennLady]

The nuance between semi-colon and colon is barely understood by writers, let alone readers, even amongst talented writers, and a mystery to their readers. Full stops and commas are best understood. They work well.

Can you please stop insulting people? It's a semi-colon and a colon, punctuation marks, not quantum physics. Plenty of us out there know the difference, whether we're reading or writing. Do you use only full stops and commas? How boring that must be.

My question was how can you advocate a "minimum" of punctuation, online or elsewhere? That's ridiculous. Proper punctuation is one thing, and I get the feeling it isn't taught so much or so well anymore. But minimum?

 

[mynameisben]

William Faulkner never met a period he liked.

 

[sr71plt]

That's it, then. Can't use periods anymore. Readers can't understand them.

 

[Man_in_Chester]

Write for your audience's feelings

IMO and only IMO, I like to use punctuation when necessary, but keep it as simple as I can, because to me, using multiple types of punctuation starts confusing a reader and they'd rather read the story, than figure out length of pause, or inclusions of thought.

KISS, to me is they best way to go, in most cases, unless you're writing in technical, or legal terms. It is only erotica we're writing and the readers aren't all that technical savvy to know the difference, or usage of most of the punctuation used.

Hay Jimmy, what's more important than sex?

When elfin__ wrote "Punctuation only appeared with the Wittenberg press half a millenium ago as printer's marks to replace spaces in hand-written and illuminated manuscripts.
It is not grammar or holy scripture - just a mechanism to make a text readable when printed..." She was right.

It was because that was the time you could afford to read your own book on your own.
Now that we need to be told when to hold our breath, when to breathe and what emphasis each part requires rather than be given that as part of the duty performed by the reader, the task must be done by the writing to accomplish that while getting in the most meaning that can be achieved.
The writer will always give their readers space to let their imaginations roam, but at the same time must do some of the work that would have been done 500 years ago by the professional reader. At the same time this must be done without being intrusive.
Consider how the characters in a play speak to one another: the playwright will have provided not only the words but also directions to the actors as to which parts of the text are (in his opinion) more or less important. The actors use their skilled delivery to convey the full meaning which is sometimes more than the playwright had realised was there.

 

[Man_in_Chester]

As sorry as required

Can you please stop insulting people? It's a semi-colon and a colon, punctuation marks, not quantum physics. Plenty of us out there know the difference, whether we're reading or writing. Do you use only full stops and commas? How boring that must be.

My question was how can you advocate a "minimum" of punctuation, online or elsewhere? That's ridiculous. Proper punctuation is one thing, and I get the feeling it isn't taught so much or so well anymore. But minimum?

Please, if I have offended anyone, I had tried not to hurt you.

 

[sr71plt]

Please, if I have offended anyone, I had tried not to hurt you.

What would give you the impression PennLady was addressing you?

 

[PennLady]

Please, if I have offended anyone, I had tried not to hurt you.

No, no offense, and I wasn't addressing you with the earlier comment.

 

[palisa]

I'm still stuck on "nuances of semicolons vs. colons." I hesitate many times when I'm writing or editing, sometimes over simple things like "it's" vs. "its." While I've sometimes hesitated over whether a colon was better than a comma in setting off a quote after an introductory phrase, or whether commas or semicolons should separate the items in a series, I don't think the question of whether a colon or a semicolon was the proper choice has ever crossed my mind. They're just too different.

 

[snoopercharmbrights]

I'm still stuck on "nuances of semicolons vs. colons." ...

Semicolon:
A punctuation mark indicating a discontinuity of grammatical construction greater than that indicated by a comma but less than that indicated by a full stop.

Colon:
A punctuation mark indicating a discontinuity of grammatical construction, though one less than that indicated by a period or full stop; now especially used for marking antithesis, illustration, quotation, or listing (sometimes with a dash , or between numbers in a proportion, reference, etc.

 

[strapon_tales]

Great, just when I think I've finally got this comma / semi-colon thing figured out ...

 

[SydneyBlake]

I wouldn't leave the comma in your sentence. I would do this:

Today was different. Her heart was beating faster than normal and her stomach felt tight.

Actually, Mrs. Crabapple would say that the second sentence is a compound sentence joined by the conjunction "and," which should be preceded by a comma.

But I think Mrs. Crabapple is a pedantic bitch.

 

[SydneyBlake]

Language is a beast with legs. It's always on the move. GM puts out a new model of car every year, even though the previous year's models continue to roll along just fine. Fashions change, perceptions change, and the Chicago Manual of Style changes too. Accept the fact these things change and always will.

Here's my take on the semicolon: if you are writing fiction, then you will want to minimize using the semicolon almost to the point of abandoning it altogether; readers of fiction—especially readers of erotic fiction—just don't get fancy schmancy punctuation (e.g., em dashes, parenthetical clauses, and, god forbid, latin abbreviations, et. al).

When a fiction author uses a semicolon, even when used properly, it is often interpreted by their readers as pretentious writing. Proper semicolon use is an obtuse concept that most of us never really got when we struggled with its arcane rules in high school. Many people never quite got it. And seeing the semicolon rear its ugly head when trying to get lost in a fantasy can be a jarring experience for knucklehead and grammarian alike. Who wants to be ripped from a hot fuck scene to take a moment to consider whether punctuation is properly applied or to figure out what it even means? I know that I sure don't.

If you absolutely have to, go ahead and use a semicolon. But be as reluctant to do so as shooting your own kids. I'd think long and hard about ever using more than one of them in a 10K piece. The last thing you want to do is take your reader out of your story and force them to focus on the mechanics of your writing. It's the surest way to lose them forever.

Sometimes you're wrong, whether you're right or wrong.

Oh, and Microsoft Word doesn't know shit about grammar.

LOVE IT!

 

[sr71plt]

Actually, Mrs. Crabapple would say that the second sentence is a compound sentence joined by the conjunction "and," which should be preceded by a comma.

American mainstream publishers would (and do) say this too. They're working for the reader and want the map of the sentence to be as clear to the reader as possible.

 

[SydneyBlake]

LC, it is my suspicion, based on your OP (and this probably isn't going to help you one iota), that you are caught in that gray area between "correct grammar and punctuation," and that place where an experienced writer feels free to bend the rules. Yes, a comma splice is incorrect punctuation, and Mrs. Schuster would take off a point if I used one in my senior thesis. But we write fiction, and in a work of fiction, any of the above renderings of your idea would be acceptable.

I don't see a lot of semicolons used in fiction. I see them more in nonfiction. Does that mean you shouldn't use them? No, but this is an instance where I would say that you should be careful to use them correctly and not get artsy with them. Punctuation, after all, is intended to aid in our understanding of the written word. That's all.

 

[sr71plt]

Punctuation, after all, is intended to aid in our understanding of the written word. That's all.

I thought it was used because it's so hard to get salt and pepper into the computer.

 

[snoopercharmbrights]

I wouldn't leave the comma in your sentence. I would do this:

Today was different. Her heart was beating faster than normal and her stomach felt tight.

Actually, Mrs. Crabapple would say that the second sentence is a compound sentence joined by the conjunction "and," which should be preceded by a comma.

But I think Mrs. Crabapple is a pedantic bitch.

Ah, the Oxford comma - we could have another 40+ postings for and against that.

Actually I'm sure we already have.

 

[palisa]

The Oxford comma is a comma before the conjunction in a list of things. Depends on the style authority you follow whether you write:


He did A, B, and C.

or

He did A, B and C.

Wikipedia has an exceptionally good article on the subject at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma. The best part of the article is the section on ambiguities, which explains why the Oxford comma sometimes must be used or must not be used despite the general rule you follow.

 

[TimothyM]

Comma splice

At least this thread made me look up comma splice, which was a concept I had not come across before, or maybe I had forgotten about it since doing my BA in English Literature years and years ago.
So now I know why Word sometimes makes suggestions to either substitute a semicolon for the comma or add an 'and' to the subsequent sentence. At least I have the chance to go over my stories and correct those places now before submitting, thus avoiding rejection on those grounds.
So thanks for bringing up the subject and for the various contributions from other people. It's a help for those of us who are not native English speakers. I think quite a few other European languages, certainly my own, have no prohibition against comma splices, so we have to actively guard against that mistake.

 

[sr71plt]

The Oxford comma is a comma before the conjunction in a list of things. Depends on the style authority you follow whether you write:


He did A, B, and C.

or

He did A, B and C.

Wikipedia has an exceptionally good article on the subject at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma. The best part of the article is the section on ambiguities, which explains why the Oxford comma sometimes must be used or must not be used despite the general rule you follow.

I think the relevant point is that both American and UK mainstream publishers use the Oxford comma. (American informal writing usually doesn't.)

 

[elfin_odalisque]

If you NEVER used a semicolon, you'd really be messing up readers when you wrote a complex series containing phrases set off by commas.

But even in the other use, between two independent clauses not joined by a conjunction to signal a closer connection between them than a period would, you would be unnecessarily restricting your bag of writing "tricks."

I don't agree that a semicolon is something a reader can't naturally hop over without hyperventilating. Using them occasionally is certainly better than running a series of short, choppy s entences, all ending in periods.

Talk about pedantic.

Semi colons, like commas, colons and a host of others are just printers' marks that came in with the Guthenberg press. Trying to pretend they have grammatical significance is, at best, far fetched.

I'll go back to the illuminated manuscripts which had no punctuation at all.

 

[sr71plt]

I'll go back to the illuminated manuscripts which had no punctuation at all.

I think that's a terrific idea, Elfin. I'll even help you pack.

 

[gentledemands]

Thanks for the feedback, Bonnie.

I guess we can agree to disagree on this. To me, a clause that acts as a modifier, is a modifier. The fact that it has a subject and verb is irrelevant. Who cares that it can it operate as a compete sentence? It doesn't serve that purpose in this case.

It needs to have a subordinating conjunction if you want to use it as a modifier.

 

[nakdsub]

Here is how you determin where to use what...

It's simple. Type your story using Microsoft, "Word." Put commas everywhere you think they go. If you see a green ine under the previous word, replace the comma with a semi-colon, if the line goes away, hooray, if not, remove the comma altogether.