Congrats to the ASSOCIATION of INDEPENDENT READERS “Special Contest” AWARD WINNERS

[Guest]

[size=+2]THREADMASTERS STATEMENT OF INTENT[/size]

This is the ULTIMATE “Story Feedback” thread.

The purpose of this thread is to identify and honor those authors who entered a LITEROTICA “Special Contest” and who had their story signaled out by the vast LITEROTICA reading public.

In the past many readers have complained that the OFFICIAL LITEROTICA awards do not truly reflect the will of the people, that instead they’ve become the playthings of the elitists of AHland, a group that continually expresses their disdain for the average men and women who flock to this site every day to read our stories.

And so the ASSOCIATION of INDEPENDAT READERS was born. In each contest the stories that receives the “MOST VIEWS”, the “MOST VOTES”, the “MOST COMMENTS” and has the “HIGHEST RATING” will each receive an ASSOCIATION of INDEPENDENT READERS (AIR) award. It'll be our readers direct feedback, not some backroom politicking, that will decide these winners!

Going forward AIR hopes to present these awards at the end of every special contest in 2010 and with the help and financial backing of ScouriesWorld we envision holding an annual awards gala in Miami Beach every February (probably in conjunction with the annual 1000+ VOTES CLUB meeting and the ScouriesWorld Winter Seminars.

We of course welcome feedback (on this thread and to the winners directly) from LITEROTICA'S reading public.​

Gabby
President
Association of Independent Readers

 

[Guest]

QUOTE AW2 Yes, it appears that "Recycled" by RejectReality had quite a few more views/reads than my story

25. Recycled
Daughter dumps boyfriend, but Mom's into recycling. by RejectReality (04/13/10) 83,923
34. Mom Recycles on Earth Day
Mother enlists son to mitigate tragic loss. by alwayswantedto (03/30/10) 78,269

You are quite right AW2! At first glance that is. Even the boss pointed out the apparent error when I showed him the list of winners (before I published them).

So I ran the numbers through the ScouriesWorld computer a second time and your name came up again. “WTF?” I asked myself.

Well we got our IT expert in right away and it turns out it wasn’t a glitch in our computer. In fact, the ScouriesWorld computer had identified an anomaly in the VIEW figures as reported by LITEROTICA. Between 3:27 a.m. and 3:28 a.m. on the morning of April 19th 33,333 VIEWS were mysteriously added to the story “Recycled”. You might say that some VIEWS were Recycled to “Recycled”

And we now know the author of this story RR had nothing to do with nefarious deed. Our computers have identified (through analysis of USP’s and other advanced techniques) that two people hacked into the LITEROTICA computer on April 19th and stole VIEWS from other stories and deposited them with “Recycled”.

As of yet we haven’t identified the perpetrators – all we know is that this sabotage originated in Texas and Indianna and the computer ID’s of these VIEW criminals are bb and db. As more info comes to light we will advise you.

But rest assured, you are the legitimate winner…

So congratulations again,

Gabby
President
Association of Independent Readers

 

[Darkniciad]

Oh, how I do love it when you fall on your face and make up something so incredibly absurd to "cover" your failure, scouries.

You don't even know how idiotic this one was *laugh*

****

Congratulations on attracting so many readers to your story ( airhead awards aside ) alwayswantedto. There were quite a few contest stories in the high-read categories, and you left 'em in the dust.

Here's to hoping that it translates out into increased reads on everything you release from now on

 

[TxRad]

Oh, how I do love it when you fall on your face and make up something so incredibly absurd to "cover" your failure, scouries.

You don't even know how idiotic this one was *laugh*

****

Congratulations on attracting so many readers to your story ( airhead awards aside ) alwayswantedto. There were quite a few contest stories in the high-read categories, and you left 'em in the dust.

Here's to hoping that it translates out into increased reads on everything you release from now on

Maybe I should tell them that it's ISP. UPS are the guys that deliver packages.

Stupid is as stupid does.

 

[michchick98]

[size=+2]THREADMASTERS STATEMENT OF INTENT[/size]

This is the ULTIMATE “Story Feedback” thread.

The purpose of this thread is to identify and honor those authors who entered a LITEROTICA “Special Contest” and who had their story signaled out by the vast LITEROTICA reading public.

In the past many readers have complained that the OFFICIAL LITEROTICA awards do not truly reflect the will of the people, that instead they’ve become the playthings of the elitists of AHland, a group that continually expresses their disdain for the average men and women who flock to this site every day to read our stories.

And so the ASSOCIATION of INDEPENDAT READERS was born. In each contest the stories that receives the “MOST VIEWS”, the “MOST VOTES”, the “MOST COMMENTS” and has the “HIGHEST RATING” will each receive an ASSOCIATION of INDEPENDENT READERS (AIR) award. It'll be our readers direct feedback, not some backroom politicking, that will decide these winners!

Going forward AIR hopes to present these awards at the end of every special contest in 2010 and with the help and financial backing of ScouriesWorld we envision holding an annual awards gala in Miami Beach every February (probably in conjunction with the annual 1000+ VOTES CLUB meeting and the ScouriesWorld Winter Seminars.

We of course welcome feedback (on this thread and to the winners directly) from LITEROTICA'S reading public.​

Gabby
President
Association of Independent Readers

Translation:

Since I can't win a REAL Literotica contest, I have to make up my own.

 

[BOSTONFICTIONWRITER]

Whether or not if what this man or woman writes is true or invented, we don't know which, whether Scouries is paid or not, in the scope of things, it really doesn't matter. What matters is that he or she is, bar none, is the most creative person on this site. No one does it better. No one puts on a better show.

"Bravo! I applaud you. I'm giving you a standing ovation for all that you've done to entertain us all. Bravo!"

The fact that none of you see that, not TX, Michchick, DB, Ace and others, or won't admit it, tells me that you not only are jealous of his talents but also you fear him or her. Why is that? Why can't you take all of this for what it is? Why do you have to pee on Scouries parade. Is it that you don't have the creative talent to blow up your own balloons?

Whether it is with images, words and/or statistics, every one of Scouries posts are informative, as much as they are creatively entertaining. If Literotica isn't paying this person for doing this, while putting up with all your disrepectful shit, he or she should be paid for what he or she does. I, for one, love reading his or her posts.

Without a doubt, I'd miss this cyber personality, should he or she ever take your advice and leave this site. I dare say that all of you would miss he or she, too.

Instead of chastising and belittling him or her constantly, why not embrace his or her talents for entertainment and revel in his or her ability to do just that on, what would otherwise be without him or her, a boring site.

Keep it coming, Scouries. You do all of this for our enjoyment without the respect and the gratitude of all who love to hate you.

 

[michchick98]

Whether or not if what this man or woman writes is true or invented, we don't know which, whether Scouries is paid or not, in the scope of things, it really doesn't matter. What matters is that he or she is, bar none, is the most creative person on this site. No one does it better. No one puts on a better show.

"Bravo! I applaud you. I'm giving you a standing ovation for all that you've done to entertain us all. Bravo!"

The fact that none of you see that, not TX, Michchick, DB, Ace and others, or won't admit it, tells me that you not only are jealous of his talents but also you fear him or her. Why is that? Why can't you take all of this for what it is? Why do you have to pee on Scouries parade. Is it that you don't have the creative talent to blow up your own balloons?

Whether it is with images, words and/or statistics, every one of Scouries posts are informative, as much as they are creatively entertaining. If Literotica isn't paying this person for doing this, while putting up with all your disrepectful shit, he or she should be paid for what he or she does. I, for one, love reading his or her posts.

Without a doubt, I'd miss this cyber personality, should he or she ever take your advice and leave this site. I dare say that all of you would miss he or she, too.

Instead of chastising and belittling him or her constantly, why not embrace his or her talents for entertainment and revel in his or her ability to do just that on, what would otherwise be without him or her, a boring site.

Keep it coming, Scouries. You do all of this for our enjoyment without the respect and the gratitude of all who love to hate you.

Why is it you seem to tap dance around things as usual, Freddie? Why is it that after every special contest, you and scouries go on and on for days about who cheated and who didn't?

Why is it that YOU constantly complain about the same things over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.....well, you get the idea?

You think we're jealous? Seriously? With all the whining you and scouries do, you can honestly say WE'RE the jealous ones?

Why can't either of you, just once, congratulate the winners? Why can't each contest you don't win make you want to write something bigger and better so you have a better chance to win in the next contest?

Since you seem to have all the knowledge of who wins each and every special contest, Freddie, why don't you back up your accusations of the same people winning every time with links to the winners' story pages?

You are right about one thing, watching you and scouries foam and froth at the mouth about not winning yet again is entertaining. It also proves what sore losers you are. Especially you.

 

[sarahhh]

Whether or not if what this man or woman writes is true or invented, we don't know which, whether Scouries is paid or not, in the scope of things, it really doesn't matter. What matters is that he or she is, bar none, is the most creative person on this site. No one does it better. No one puts on a better show.

"Bravo! I applaud you. I'm giving you a standing ovation for all that you've done to entertain us all. Bravo!"

The fact that none of you see that, not TX, Michchick, DB, Ace and others, or won't admit it, tells me that you not only are jealous of his talents but also you fear him or her. Why is that? Why can't you take all of this for what it is? Why do you have to pee on Scouries parade. Is it that you don't have the creative talent to blow up your own balloons?

Whether it is with images, words and/or statistics, every one of Scouries posts are informative, as much as they are creatively entertaining. If Literotica isn't paying this person for doing this, while putting up with all your disrepectful shit, he or she should be paid for what he or she does. I, for one, love reading his or her posts.

Without a doubt, I'd miss this cyber personality, should he or she ever take your advice and leave this site. I dare say that all of you would miss he or she, too.

Instead of chastising and belittling him or her constantly, why not embrace his or her talents for entertainment and revel in his or her ability to do just that on, what would otherwise be without him or her, a boring site.

Keep it coming, Scouries. You do all of this for our enjoyment without the respect and the gratitude of all who love to hate you.

Exactly.

 

[sr71plt]

It's interesting to watch these three stand on the field of battle and keep looking nervously behind them for all those supporters their little thumbs created--and finding no one.

Very entertaining. They brought their own shovels to do their own digging.

 

[YoursSINSerely]

It's interesting to watch these three stand on the field of battle and keep looking nervously behind them for all those supporters their little thumbs created--and finding no one.

Very entertaining. They brought their own shovels to do their own digging.

I think the supporters just vote and shut up.

 

[sr71plt]

I think the supporters just vote and shut up.

I think Scouries, Sarahhh, and Freddie would benefit greatly by doing that too.

 

[YoursSINSerely]

I think Scouries, Sarahhh, and Freddie would benefit greatly by doing that too.

But, who would take over the entertainment thread? Certainly, it wouldn't be the serious authors around here.

 

[sr71plt]

But, who would take over the entertainment thread? Certainly, it wouldn't be the serious authors around here.

Oh, there's happy entertainment, and then there's obnoxious whining and lying entertainment. We might try with some of the former for change--I think some of your posts fit in the happy entertainment field.

It would be a refreshing change to have more to laugh with rather than to laugh at.

 

[YoursSINSerely]

Oh, there's happy entertainment, and then there's obnoxious whining and lying entertainment. We might try with some of the former for change--I think some of your posts fit in the happy entertainment field.

It would be a refreshing change to have more to laugh with rather than to laugh at.

Ahh, you just made me blush, Pilot. I've learned that the votes are what the votes are. Mine have been popular and some have to earn them the hard way.

 

[sarahhh]

It's interesting to watch these three stand on the field of battle and keep looking nervously behind them for all those supporters

Scouries and BFW are much more concerned about looking behind them for you than I am. I can tell a limp dick when I hear one. The only supporter of yours I am aware of is the one you wear on your head with the crotch under your nose.

 

[sr71plt]

Scouries and BFW are much more concerned about looking behind them for you than I am. I can tell a limp dick when I hear one. The only supporter of yours I am aware of is the one you wear on your head with the crotch under your nose.

You're such a silly goose. I can tell I bother you stupid threesome because you spend so much time and effort in your sophomoric jabs. None of that crap has bothered me since junior high.

Who do you think you're fooling? Just a bunch of phonies. Just can't risk taking your writing abililites into the commercial world, can you? (beyond your one shot at self-publishing, of course). You three together aren't worth spit.

 

[sarahhh]

I don't get it. Am I the only writer here who agrees with you and who thinks you are right? Or is it that the other writers who write here don't publicly support you for fear of retaliation in the way that they ostracized me, took away all my red H's, bashed all my stories, lied about me, and treated me with disrespect?

The fact remains that we writers who write and post are stories here are fools. We not only write for free but also we are not treated very well. So, why do we continue to write here? There aren't very many places to post what we write. Yet, it's painfully obvious that the contests are not fairly run. It's always the same people winning. Why is that? It's sad that we writers put such effort and creativity in our stories only to be used.

Surely, with nearly 50,000 writers and with typically a pool of 60-120 stories entered in the monthly contests, there's enough stories for various authors to win. Yet, time and again, it's the same names appearing on the list. I don't get it. Why is that? How can any one writer win more than once in the course of a year, when there are so many talented writers writing so many great stories?

Granted the winning stories, usually, are good and the writers who write them, usually, are talented, but their winning stories are no better than some of their others that were written by writers who are equally as talented.

Is it that Literotica has favored sons and daughters, plants, so that they can make it appear that there is a legitimate contest and they are paying out real money or is the whole thing a sham?

If it smells like a fish...these contests are fishy to me.

Now, had the winner of the Earth Day contest entered his story in the Survivor Contest, it would have been disqualifed as a templated story. Correction. I apologize. If I had entered a story, such as the one that won in the Earth Day Contest, it would have been disqualified as a templated story. Further, had I entered a story, such as the story that won the Earth Day contest, it would have been disqualifed as a chapter story. Go figure. It sure smells fishy to me.

Every AH regular would have railed against the dreaded Bostonfictionwriter, Scouries, and Sarahhh, had we won. No fear, we'll never win a contest here. Not that we aren't talented writers, who create wonderful stories, you tell me why?

Yet, those who haunt the forum board 24/7 and who have amassed tens of thousands of posts, we all know who they are, by their avatars that they truly believe represent them in real life, embrace their familiar winner again and again.

It's time the contests were open for every writer to have an equal chance to win. This voting system is not working. We need a panel of judges, that change with each monthly contest, to vote for the winning stories.

I'm disappointed with the way that contests are judged here. It's insulting. Nonetheless, I'll continue to write my stories. I just wanted to post my opinion.

Only, I'm curious. Who's turn is it to win the Nude Day contest? I'm sure the winner has already been chosen the the winning story decided. I'd just like to know in advance so that I won't waste my time voting on stories that don't have a chance in Hell of winning.

I will sheep with you if you shut up AceHole. You don't even have to off him. Just get him off by sticking your dog's dick in his mouth.

 

[sr71plt]

I will sheep with you if you shut up AceHole. You don't even have to off him. Just get him off by sticking your dog's dick in his mouth.

Is there an English translation for this?

(So incensed you can't even hold your fingers steady on the computer, can you? )

 

[sarahhh]

Is there an English translation for this?

(So incensed you can't even hold your fingers steady on the computer, can you? )

What, you think sheep was a mistake?

Incensed is probably the last thing you could do do to anybody.

Putting somebody to sleep without even singing a lullaby I would believe.

 

[sr71plt]

What, you think sheep was a mistake?

Incensed is probably the last thing you could do do to anybody.

Putting somebody to sleep without even singing a lullaby I would believe.

Planning on actually responding any time soon to any of the reality-based points that either Dark or I have posed for you? Or is it too much of a strain to work your way out of LaLa land?

 

[sarahhh]

Planning on actually responding any time soon to any of the reality-based points that either Dark or I have posed for you? Or is it too much of a strain to work your way out of LaLa land?

Sure, I'll respond. When I get around to it. I'm not a psycho-bitch drama queen who lives for this shit, ya know?

In fact, there is something on my agenda more important than you at this very moment (no, not taking a dump), so I will talk at you tomorrow.

 

[sr71plt]

I'm not a psycho-bitch drama queen who lives for this shit, ya know?

Could have fooled me. That's precisely how your posting personality comes across.

 

[BOSTONFICTIONWRITER]

Actually, in fact, to find someone who is able to army and marshall the vote, to find someone who can win a contest almost at will, all you need to do is to look at his or her page. Go ahead, I dare you. Take a gander at the winner's page. You'll be surprised.

If on his or her page, every story is colored with a red H, guess what? Draw the line and make the connection.

You could say that he or she is a great writer and worthy of a red H every time he or she spits out a story. Yet, you could read some of those red H stories and wonder how in the Hell he or she was able to get a red H for that piece of shit.

I'm stating what I have always said, these contests have nothing to do with writing talent and creative ability, but with popularity. Period.

Conversely, you can make the same argument for Scouries and Sarahhh. If they were able to work the system, as you say they can, if they were able to readjust and realign their scores, as a few of you think they can, then why can't they win a contest? Answer me that.

I'll tell you why. Because they can't tamper with the system. They don't have the ability to do that in the way that some of your pals can. Scouries and Sarahhh are just talented and creative writers, who will never have a fair chance at winning a contest here because, like me, we rely on our ability to tell a story.

You're a writer, shouldn't a contest be about the story and not the writer? Let's take the writer out of the equation. Let's focus on the story. Let's have a contest that doesn't list who wrote the story. Yeah, sure, it's not a perfect fix. The person who is going to cheat will still cheat.

So, what do you think, was it a good story? I dunno. I didn't even read it. So and so wrote it, and he asked me and all the other hundred people at work to vote for it, so I did.

Maybe we should have a panel of judges that change with every contest deciding which story is the best story.

Do you understand why I complain that the contests are not fair for every writer? Or do you still think that I'm just whinning and have sour grapes. Hey, you said yourself, I don't even have an entry in the contest. What do I have sour grapes about?

If the contest was purely decided upon by the story, then I wouldn't complain. Let the best story win. Unfortunately, the contests here are decided by who can summon the most votes.

I reiterate, if you want to find someone who can manipulate the system and win a contest, just take a look at their page.

If every single story, even their first attempts, even their shitty stories that they wrote, when they had the flu or writer's block, is colored with a red H then, chances are people like me, you, Scouries, Sarahhh, and thousands of other writers, who pour out their hearts and write here for free, hoping to be so recognized, by winning a lousy contest on this site, don't stand a chance.

Go ahead, make your argument now. I dare you to spin what I just wrote. Tell me that it's not true.

We're all watching for you to defend your pals and make up more lies. I'm a righteous man. I tell the truth. I tell it the way that it is. I've always believed in fair play and in good over evil and as far as I'm concerned, the contests around here stink.

Yet, contests were never my goal. I'm just here to write my stories. Then, when I saw things that were wrong, when I was cheated myself with the Survivor Contest, because I'm a righteous guy, I called what I saw and took all the shit from people like you and your silly assortment of cyber friends for my comments. Now, why was that? Because you were afraid that I had uncovered the truth.

As are most writers who post a story, I'm here to write. I'm not here to post nonsense, as you are, 24/7 on these forum boards.

If you ask me, you're more the junior high bully than is Sarahhh the beautiful and bodacious cheerleader. Her forum post numbers pales in comparison to your looming and growing number.

As matter of fact, if you took my posts, Scouries' posts, and Sarahhh's posts, we still wouldn't even reach half the number of silly and nonsensical posts you've made here, Mr. Great, published, and successful writer, who has so much time on his hands that he spends all his time here (lol).

I rest my case.

Can we, just for once, have a fair contest that everyone, equally, has a fair chance at winning?

 

[KillerMuffin]

Let's have a contest that doesn't list who wrote the story. Yeah, sure, it's not a perfect fix. The person who is going to cheat will still cheat.

That's an interesting proposition. I find myself intrigued by this idea. It randomizes the story situation for the general readership (that is, those who do not populate the board and chatrooms) by removing the interesting elements that tend to create bias in voting (sexually provocative female names, for example).

The problem is that it relies on the ethics of the writers of the story. Can the writers be trusted not to run to their fanbases and send private messages requesting a vote on specific stories? No, they cannot. Can writers be trusted not to use an IP spoofing vote-bot? No, they cannot. Can writers be trusted not to publicize which story is theirs? No, they cannot.

I think that you are generally an honest person, Freddie (if I may call you that). You would hold to the bounds of the contest. sr71plt is generally an honest person. So is michchick, DarkNiciad, et al. There is at least one person on this thread that I know of that can personally create an IP spoofing vote-bot and and interest in creating the alts to go with it. It's not that difficult. I cannot create one on my own (the codes running php sites are too complex for me these days), but it's not that hard for a script kiddie. Actually, given a month or so and some crack sites, I could probably figure it out. Well, my ISP would shut me down first. Warez, not so c00l.

Now, how could a randomized contest be run so that writer fraud be reduced? Reducing reader bias is simple enough. A double blind would be best---writers unable to view the contest in progress and readers unable to know who wrote which story. If such a contest were set up, where stories were posted with no identification for a period of time for the public to vote on, would you trust the voting results? The stories would have to fit certain parameters of course, same setting and character archetyps, same category, same level of kink, etc.

But the question remains, if there were a special "Blind" contest, where writers submitted a story that met parameters, all were posted on the same day to collect votes for, say three weeks, with daily top billing on the new lists under the same title, all writers agree to say nothing of who wrote what to anyone until the end of the contest, would you believe the results of the contest were geniune or would you think that somehow, fraud was committed or the results were rigged? If the vote did not go for you and you did not win? Would you doubt the honesty of others in the contest?

 

[Many Feathers]

Omg...

Actually, in fact, to find someone who is able to army and marshall the vote, to find someone who can win a contest almost at will, all you need to do is to look at his or her page. Go ahead, I dare you. Take a gander at the winner's page. You'll be surprised.

If on his or her page, every story is colored with a red H, guess what? Draw the line and make the connection.

You could say that he or she is a great writer and worthy of a red H every time he or she spits out a story. Yet, you could read some of those red H stories and wonder how in the Hell he or she was able to get a red H for that piece of shit.

I'm stating what I have always said, these contests have nothing to do with writing talent and creative ability, but with popularity. Period.

Conversely, you can make the same argument for Scouries and Sarahhh. If they were able to work the system, as you say they can, if they were able to readjust and realign their scores, as a few of you think they can, then why can't they win a contest? Answer me that.

I'll tell you why. Because they can't tamper with the system. They don't have the ability to do that in the way that some of your pals can. Scouries and Sarahhh are just talented and creative writers, who will never have a fair chance at winning a contest here because, like me, we rely on our ability to tell a story.

You're a writer, shouldn't a contest be about the story and not the writer? Let's take the writer out of the equation. Let's focus on the story. Let's have a contest that doesn't list who wrote the story. Yeah, sure, it's not a perfect fix. The person who is going to cheat will still cheat.

So, what do you think, was it a good story? I dunno. I didn't even read it. So and so wrote it, and he asked me and all the other hundred people at work to vote for it, so I did.

Maybe we should have a panel of judges that change with every contest deciding which story is the best story.

Do you understand why I complain that the contests are not fair for every writer? Or do you still think that I'm just whinning and have sour grapes. Hey, you said yourself, I don't even have an entry in the contest. What do I have sour grapes about?

If the contest was purely decided upon by the story, then I wouldn't complain. Let the best story win. Unfortunately, the contests here are decided by who can summon the most votes.

I reiterate, if you want to find someone who can manipulate the system and win a contest, just take a look at their page.

If every single story, even their first attempts, even their shitty stories that they wrote, when they had the flu or writer's block, is colored with a red H then, chances are people like me, you, Scouries, Sarahhh, and thousands of other writers, who pour out their hearts and write here for free, hoping to be so recognized, by winning a lousy contest on this site, don't stand a chance.

Go ahead, make your argument now. I dare you to spin what I just wrote. Tell me that it's not true.

We're all watching for you to defend your pals and make up more lies. I'm a righteous man. I tell the truth. I tell it the way that it is. I've always believed in fair play and in good over evil and as far as I'm concerned, the contests around here stink.

Yet, contests were never my goal. I'm just here to write my stories. Then, when I saw things that were wrong, when I was cheated myself with the Survivor Contest, because I'm a righteous guy, I called what I saw and took all the shit from people like you and your silly assortment of cyber friends for my comments. Now, why was that? Because you were afraid that I had uncovered the truth.

As are most writers who post a story, I'm here to write. I'm not here to post nonsense, as you are, 24/7 on these forum boards.

If you ask me, you're more the junior high bully than is Sarahhh the beautiful and bodacious cheerleader. Her forum post numbers pales in comparison to your looming and growing number.

As matter of fact, if you took my posts, Scouries' posts, and Sarahhh's posts, we still wouldn't even reach half the number of silly and nonsensical posts you've made here, Mr. Great, published, and successful writer, who has so much time on his hands that he spends all his time here (lol).

I rest my case.

Can we, just for once, have a fair contest that everyone, equally, has a fair chance at winning?

I love the idea....now wouldn't that prove to be interesting?