Connection between BDSM interests and history of sexual abuse

[taciturnTalia]

...Because of those factors, I learned not to ask for what I wanted. I learned that even if a man seemed to want me, he might get angry or reject me if I made any move. I need to have my partner tell me what to do and what he wants because that then gives me the license to do it. Since I left my ex-husband a little over a year ago, I've worked on becoming more comfortable with asking for or going after what I want sexually, but I still prefer it when my partner's in charge. For these reasons, the BDSM lifestyle intrigues me, hence my lurking on this board, but it isn't something I'm planning to explore right now because I understand I wouldn't be getting into it for healthy reasons at this point.

On the one hand I would like to take this to private messages- however I'm inclined to ask questions and tell you more about myself here in the forum in case someone else is wondering what I'm wondering.

To me, based on what you said, there seems to be a direct corrilaton between your current interests and your past negetive sexual experiences. Do you feel like there is? Or were you just explaining your history a little?

I also had an abusive mother and multiple sexual abusers (ever just feel like you have a sign on your head that says- hey come rape me? lol. Got to laugh about it so you dont cry...)

I wasn't taught that I had to be submissive to be wanted (paraphrasing what you seemed to express). I was taught that the only reason someone would want me would be for sex.

Now when I find myself being turned on by being my partner's "sex toy" I'm unsure of the reason. It seems like there are plenty of people that have not suffered abuse that find that arousing... but they've never had someone force that idea unto them.

You've been forcably taught that you're supposed to be submissive to your partner's desires. How can you ever be sure that when you're being submissive its because you want to be and not because it was brainwashed into you? How can I ever be sure I truely want to be used for someone's pleasure when it has been ingrained in my that it is my purpose to do so?

Where do you go from there, without certainty of your own mind? How can you determine your own mind?

 

[EmpressFi]

I wasnt sexually abused growing up, and only one incident with my exhusband. I know I've always wanted to take care of people, to make them happy, to do whatever they wanted to make them like me.

However I didnt get into this lifestyle full-time until last year and while yes, it incorporates a pretty wild sex life, my submission and my polyamorous relationship is more than just what I do in the bedroom. I have two fulfilling marriages, for lack of a better description. Two men who love me in caring, non-kinky ways as well as the kinky ones.

I just like the pain and I love the feeling I get in submission.

 

[taciturnTalia]

Yes, some of us have a history of sexual abuse, and some don't. I'd say there is no higher incidence in BDSM than there is anywhere else. Statistics say something like 1 in 5 girls is sexually abused by the time she is 8. So look in any group..and you're going to find some.

I have considerd that and agree. I didn't want to imply that I think there are more abused women in this lifestyle then in other lifestyles.

I do not think that my past history has much if anything at all to do with my being submissive, or a painslut, or polyamorous for that matter.

Have you ever had a time when you considered it? Or have you always been sure that there is no corrilation? If you weren't always sure- how did you become sure?

I have never tried to reenact a situation..and have no desire to do so. I've pretty much made peace with things and do not need a mock scene to take that control back. Maybe some do..but not all. I'm for sure the exception on that one.

I didn't mean a literally scene by scene reenactment. Just a more general rehash of the themes of pain and loss of control.

The only symptom of PTSD I've ever had is occasional flashbacks..but I know what act brings them on..and I just don't participate in it.

Its interesting to me that you can talk about flashbacks casually. To me flashbacks can be as traumatic as the original abuse. Luckily I don't suffer from them on a regular basis anymore. I also stopped participating in certain 'acts' for some time. I found that when my trust for my partner grew I could do those certain things again without having a flashback.

I am by no means self destructive. Wanting pain, wanting to be dominated..is not self destructive. Shit some vanilla relationships are more self destructive than D/s ones.

I don't think that everyone that wants pain and domination is self destructive. You have to admit however that for someone that IS self destructive -BDSM could be dangerous to their mental health.

I don't see myself as anymore of a risk to a Dominant than someone who has not been abused. I have no mental illness. I know when I'm at my limit. I know when I need to safeword. If I have a flashback, or hit a mental trigger..well it's going to be pretty obvious to someone who knows what they are doing that they need to stop.

I agree that someone that isn't self destructive probably doesn't pose a risk to themselves or others in this context.
I don't want to aggravate you but having flashbacks is indicitive of a mental illness. Please understand that PTSD doesn't mean there is something wrong with you- it is just a lable for your sympotoms.
I'm very glad that in your experience your partners have stopped when you've had a flashback-- in my experience men that don't understand what is upsetting you don't always know what they're supposed to do.

This lifestyle is not my way of healing myself. It's who I am. I honestly think the majority of us are just wired this way. If I hadn't been abused I think I'd still be right where I am today. There are a lot of submissive women, painsluts..etc. That have never been abused.

I understand many subs have never suffereed abuse. I have suffered abuse and I wish I could be as sure that there is no corrilation as you are.

I hope this helps clear things up a little bit and that I haven't been too oversensitive.

I hope I wasn't too offensive!

 

[SubKekiLee]

From the mouths of vanilla people --I’ve heard tell that many women that have submissive tendencies are survivors of sexual assault or abuse.

I’d like to assume for a moment that there can be a correlation (not that it is true for everyone- just that it could be true for some).

I have a few ideas about it that I’d like to kick around- as well as concerns I’d like to hear everyone’s input on.

I was thinking about what would motivate a woman that has been through sexual trauma to pursue BDSM later on.

What I came up with is that in sexual assault the victim has no control, not consent, no feeling of safety or trust. This can make sex a very scary thing later on. There can be even further confusion if despite the trauma of the incident there was some sexual pleasure derived from the assault. (After all friction is friction...)

My train of thought is that what better way for a woman to work through her fears than by to reenact the traumatic situation with a partner that can be trusted, in a situation where she can choose not to participate?

My concerns here are twofold. First of all many women that have been through sexual trauma become depressed or can have post traumatic stress disorder—considering this- it is not unreasonable to think that some of these women may exhibit self destructive behavior.

So how can the line be adequately drawn between healing sexual exploration- and straight out self abuse? (even if some one else is the one technically hurting you I still consider it self abuse if you’re choosing to put yourself in that situation) This question is not only something for the victims to think about— but also their partners.

As the partner to someone with this history you have to tread carefully. What if you inadvertently contribute to their mental illness? The assumption is that your partner is ABLE to say when they’ve hit their limit and decide when its time for them to stop and leave. Someone feeling suicidal- or in troughs of a PTSD flashback- they may NOT be able to say ‘when’.

Secondly- while I understand healing must take place for survivors of sexual abuse- it leaves a bad taste in my mouth to think that the fun a person might have later on is in reaction to something negative.

Thoughts?

When I first read this thread I was mad and upset and I wasn't sure if i was going to add my 2cents, but since thinking things thru I figured id give my opinion....

I in NO way think that sexual abuse is why I am submissive I look back and realize I was BORN this way from when I was very little I always wanted to make people smile, I was always looking for acceptance and loved the rewards I received now did I know that I was submissive? NO but after growing up and researching realizing I know I am submissive, I too am a survivor, a survivor of sexual abuse from when I was 11 until I was 16 and old enough to move out and tell him to FUCK OFF... I then married into a PHYSICAL abusive relationship that wasnt healthy either... Doesnt mean I am mentally ill in any way I am submissive..is this type of relationship Self destructive? In no way am in a self destructive relationship now I am loved in more ways than I care to count. I never once thought that BDSM or being submissive was a way to heal my abuse, I spent years in therapy learing what had happend and realizing that me being submissive was not the cause of this abuse...This lifestyle is not therapy and I will tell you NO healthy Dom will allow you to re enact your abuse to get over it...or to ask you to safeword so you can work out your issues that what therapy is for.
This lifestyle requires an extreme amount of trust and that would invalidate that trust and communcation that was built to ask your partner to re enact what someone did to you with the intention to hurt you.
I dont think about my past it is my past for a reason, I do not blame my Dom for my past and he is not going to be my scape goat...

I dont bring up my truly personal life here on this forum as it is MY personal life, those closest to me know about my life and my issues and they are there to help me thru it.
It angers me you came to this forum, YOU are brand new and you insult my friends and my fellow forum posters and insinuate that we are mentally ill or need help.....

I might be in trouble for posting this post by my Dom, for my actions on this board are a reflection of my submission to him.... BUT he will understand why I had to comment..

I wish you nothing but success but be wary of what you post here we are all here to speak our opinions and ask for help but we need to refrain from hurting those around us

 

[nh23]

I have considerd that and agree. I didn't want to imply that I think there are more abused women in this lifestyle then in other lifestyles.



Have you ever had a time when you considered it? Or have you always been sure that there is no corrilation? If you weren't always sure- how did you become sure?

Yes, I've considered it, over and over..and I don't believe it's a reason. How I came to that conclusion? No idea.. Not a cop out. I really don't know. It's how I felt after a lot of soul searching,and even if it was I suppose it wouldn't matter. I love the lifestyle I lead, and I'm happy.

I didn't mean a literally scene by scene reenactment. Just a more general rehash of the themes of pain and loss of control.

*nods* I wasn't sure on that one. Some people do relive past things in scene as a way to heal..I thought that was what you were talking about.

Its interesting to me that you can talk about flashbacks casually. To me flashbacks can be as traumatic as the original abuse. Luckily I don't suffer from them on a regular basis anymore. I also stopped participating in certain 'acts' for some time. I found that when my trust for my partner grew I could do those certain things again without having a flashback.

Flashbacks are as traumatic as the original abuse..but I know what triggers them and rarely have them. I suppose it wouldn't surprise someone who posts regularly that I sounded casual talking about it.. I'm not one to post my emotions. I tend to post in general terms. I'm very private about most things.

I don't think that everyone that wants pain and domination is self destructive. You have to admit however that for someone that IS self destructive -BDSM could be dangerous to their mental health.

So could a lot of things..yet you never see it questioned. Maybe a poor example, but we don't ask every person who is sky diving if they are self destructive and have been sexually abused. It's asked a lot in BDSM.

I agree that someone that isn't self destructive probably doesn't pose a risk to themselves or others in this context.
I don't want to aggravate you but having flashbacks is indicitive of a mental illness. Please understand that PTSD doesn't mean there is something wrong with you- it is just a lable for your sympotoms.
I'm very glad that in your experience your partners have stopped when you've had a flashback-- in my experience men that don't understand what is upsetting you don't always know what they're supposed to do.

It does aggravate me. I know a psych major that would disagree with you. Flashbacks by themselves don't always indicate mental illness. I've never been diagnosed with a mental illness. I don't need a label for my symptoms. I deal just fine..nor do I need a label I can use for an excuse. It is MY responsibility to make sure my partners know what triggers a flashback and MY responsibility that they know what to do if I have one.

I didn't mean a literally scene by scene reenactment. Just a more general rehash of the themes of pain and loss of control.

*nods* I wasn't sure on that one. Some people do relive past things in scene as a way to heal..I thought that was what you were talking about.

Its interesting to me that you can talk about flashbacks casually. To me flashbacks can be as traumatic as the original abuse. Luckily I don't suffer from them on a regular basis anymore. I also stopped participating in certain 'acts' for some time. I found that when my trust for my partner grew I could do those certain things again without having a flashback.

Flashbacks are as traumatic as the original abuse..but I know what triggers them and rarely have them. I suppose it wouldn't surprise someone who posts regularly that I sounded casual talking about it.. I'm not one to post my emotions. I tend to post in general terms. I'm very private about most things.

I don't think that everyone that wants pain and domination is self destructive. You have to admit however that for someone that IS self destructive -BDSM could be dangerous to their mental health.

So could a lot of things..yet you never see it questioned. Maybe a poor example, but we don't ask every person who is sky diving if they are self destructive and have been sexually abused. It's asked a lot in BDSM.

I understand many subs have never suffereed abuse. I have suffered abuse and I wish I could be as sure that there is no corrilation as you are.



I hope I wasn't too offensive!

I can't help you with that one chickie. All I can tell you is a lot of soul searching..it's how I got to where I am.

 

[madetotakeit]

I don't think that an history of abuse leads to an interest in BDSM. I view it for myself as I was simply wired that way and at some point I came into exposure to something that made me realize it is something I needed to look into. Once I did, I realized that yes, it is the path for me so I started to pursue it.

I'm not so sure however that past experiences don't have an effect on particular interests, specific fantasies, recognized needs. There is a power in reclaiming a situation, rewriting it to have a positive effect to negate the damage. The difference in the actions that caused the damage and re-enacting in a safe environment in my opinion boils down to what happens afterwards. When someone chooses to physically, sexually, or emotionally abuse, they do so out of a place of weakness...lack of consideration, caring, or emotion. If someone looks to BDSM as a way of dealing with these things then unless they are in a self-destructive mode, they are going to seek out the opposite of that. They are going to look for someone that can assure them these are merely words, only actions. In the aftercare prove that what occurred does not define that person.

Some people seek therapy to overcome past traumas, others find their way with introspection. Whatever works for the individual is what should be done. BDSM is not a replacement for either. It is something that should fill needs on a positive level. Not all that enjoy it are damaged goods and I tend to agree with the earlier post that says the the percentage those abused in this world vs the vanilla world are probably no different. All theoretical of course. Each person's story is their own.

Every action that we go through both good and bad in life has an effect. It is part of life and part of what makes us who we are. How we react to that determines if we are survivors and grow in strength and knowledge.

 

[SubKekiLee]

**** getting back on Soapbox one more time ******

Originally Posted by taciturnTalia
I agree that someone that isn't self destructive probably doesn't pose a risk to themselves or others in this context.
I don't want to aggravate you but having flashbacks is indicitive of a mental illness. Please understand that PTSD doesn't mean there is something wrong with you- it is just a lable for your sympotoms.
I'm very glad that in your experience your partners have stopped when you've had a flashback-- in my experience men that don't understand what is upsetting you don't always know what they're supposed to do.

Im not going to get into a pissing match with you but I can tell you, YOU are completely wrong... FLASHBACKS are not indicitive of mental illness in anyway what sort I know this due to what I do for a living....

I am the president of a chapter of Mental Health America....

 

[Ritza]

I have concluded for me, that my BDSM interests do not stem from my sexual abuse.

My first memories of kink were my desires to be tied up like the cartoon figures I would watch as a child. I had to be about 5 or 6 at the time. When I played with my friends I didn't care about good guys or bad guys, all I wanted was to be the one that got tied up. I believe I was born with the desire for physical restriction.

My desire for submisson stems from having to be in postions of control so often in my vanilla life. My submission is my refuge, where I make no decisions, where I have no control. It's an escape.

I was 7 when my maternal grandfather began his seduction of me. For 3 years it was hugs and lap sitting. Puberty came early for me so when my body began to mature is when the touching began. Here's crazy for you...the touching was always superficial because he was concerned about my virginity. When my mother found out, he was gone from my life. I never saw him again. I was told by my mother and aunts that I was a good child and that in no way was I responsable.

I think that because of how things went down with me, I did not suffer long term effects. Which is why I think my abuse had no part in my desires. If truth be told my vanilla life has more to do with my kink than the abuse.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

I haven't personally suffered from sexual abuse but I thought I'd just drop this little anecdote into the debate.

A good friend of mine, M, was abused by his father as a child. He was just 5 when his father first raped him. We are talking nasty, twisted, sadistic abuse that was primarily (although not entirely) sexual and was designed to systematically humiliate, demoralize and control.

He is now 21 and has not seen his father since about the age of 12. He has had a couple of step fathers who have been either indifferent to him or resentful of having to be a step parent.

He is gay and has been sexually active (by choice) since the age of 16. He has never been attracted to girls and has never dated or kissed one.

He has had therapy and considers himself as well adjusted as he's ever likely to be. He's been in a LTR for over a year now.

He freely admits that he has absolutely no idea if he would still be gay had he not suffered abuse at the hands of his father.

M has wondered if his sexuality is a byproduct of the abuse he suffered. He was reluctant to accept his homosexuality at first because he felt that it represented his father's shadow hanging over him. It was a very difficult time for him.

Now he has come to the conclusion that, for whatever reason, this is who he is. He has come to terms with it and is now very happy with his choices in life.

Sometimes it's impossible to tell what the root causes of a character trait really are. (I know that sexuality is something deeper than a character trait but can't think of a better word right now) Sometimes it's enough to know that it's a part of who you truly are and that it has the potential to be a positive and healthy facet of your life.

 

[twysted73]

Was I abused?

Yes. Two different offenders.
1.) Female family member. Happened between the ages of 10 and 13.
The main thing I was made to do was oral.
2.) Boyscout leader.

But the family member is the one that effected me. Not that she initiated or brought about something in me that wasn't there to begin with. But I would say she brought it to the forfront. Accentuated it. Made it more compelling in my case. I was wrapping myself tight as hell in my bed sheets half a year before the incident with her started.

I feel in a lot of people's cases they're naturally sexual to begin with. Sarcastic tip of the hat to the puritanical-based society's guilt towards enjoying pleasure, add to it any religous upbringing further enforcing that "body is bad, pleasure is bad" mindset and you have a situation prime for self-doubt and angst for years to come.

Luckily I overcame this on my own. Tossing the church's restrictions and docterine, tossing the guilt (for the most part) that it happened and just accept that I am what and who I am and enjoy it.

Oddly enough, the one thing my abuser made me do the most is the one thing I enjoy above all else. And that it's not something I consider "sacred" as I do more of a social greeting or connecting to women I feel close enough to, to do it to.
That, I would say, is the one thing she DID do to me that has a direct effect on my personal/sexual appetites.
Otherwise I think I'd be another male out there being clueless about the deeper joys of giving oral to women I'm close to.

Upon retrospect I now notice I define my connection to a woman based on whether I'd eat her out or not.
I have a few female friends (far more then male) and I've notice that of those I still talk to atleast once a month I've eaten them out at some point during the initial stages of our friendship's beginnings.
I see it as natural as hugging. Like, "Hey, you're fun/funny/make me smile/make me laugh/are witty and playful, etc! I'd enjoy showing you how you make me feel by licking and enjoying your pussy for an hour or so. Is that alright?"
Of course STD's, social perameters and guidelines keep this impulse under considerable control. But man...if they weren't factors...I'd take as much as I could as often as I felt like it.

(( Good thread. I never realized most of this until now ))

But I digress. I don't think we're all necessarily products of abuse. Nor do I think that those of us who like this lifestyle but who have also been abused can definitely place the blame on it.
At the very least, I'd say the abuse simply helped along an already budding pervert.

As for those who feel they were turned gay through abuse, I must question this as well. I don't think we are all necessarily like a pin ball allowing inertia and random redirection of something so deep seeded as one's own choice of sexuality to make our decisions for us.
We know so little about the human mind and genetic cause and effect system that it would be ignorant to claim to know what is and what isn't choice vs. instinct and inborn impulse.

For all we know, we (the abused, hyper-sexuals) could simply be emitting a pheramone at an early age and be subconsciously attracting abusers.
(might explain why some seem to be lightening rods for perpetual abuse while those in the same family unit go uneffected)

Rebuttal?

 

[twysted73]

Titles, titles, who's got the titles?

I am the president of a chapter of Mental Health America....

Bush is President of the United States of America. I doubt he knows everything about it.

(hold the phone! I'm just being an instigator with a point...no wars! Nine! Nicht! Nay! Non!)

I simply say things to get other's thinking. Never to challange someone's "authority".

Simply keep this in mind. Medicine is a "practice", not a science. Yet you still let them open you up and take things out with sharp impliments.

Just saying...

 

[SubKekiLee]

Bush is President of the United States of America. I doubt he knows everything about it.

(hold the phone! I'm just being an instigator with a point...no wars! Nine! Nicht! Nay! Non!)

I simply say things to get other's thinking. Never to challange someone's "authority".

Simply keep this in mind. Medicine is a "practice", not a science. Yet you still let them open you up and take things out with sharp impliments.

Just saying...

I was simply making a point of saying she had NO authority to say flashbacks are a mental illness, she was not qualified to say that I have never AND I do not bring up what I do for living for that reason.... I am not saying I am a know it all.. I was simply point a fact that her info was erroneous...

nuff said-

 

[twysted73]

I was simply making a point of saying she had NO authority to say flashbacks are a mental illness, she was not qualified to say that I have never AND I do not bring up what I do for living for that reason.... I am not saying I am a know it all.. I was simply point a fact that her info was erroneous...

nuff said-

[/I]

And I was simply asking who among any of us really can say they are qualified? What IS normal? What isn't? This could be debated adnausium.

'sides..I wasn't really putting up the dukes. Just stirring things with the pooh stick a little.

 

[KarennaC]

On the one hand I would like to take this to private messages- however I'm inclined to ask questions and tell you more about myself here in the forum in case someone else is wondering what I'm wondering.

To me, based on what you said, there seems to be a direct corrilaton between your current interests and your past negetive sexual experiences. Do you feel like there is? Or were you just explaining your history a little?

I also had an abusive mother and multiple sexual abusers (ever just feel like you have a sign on your head that says- hey come rape me? lol. Got to laugh about it so you dont cry...)

I wasn't taught that I had to be submissive to be wanted (paraphrasing what you seemed to express). I was taught that the only reason someone would want me would be for sex.

Now when I find myself being turned on by being my partner's "sex toy" I'm unsure of the reason. It seems like there are plenty of people that have not suffered abuse that find that arousing... but they've never had someone force that idea unto them.

You've been forcably taught that you're supposed to be submissive to your partner's desires. How can you ever be sure that when you're being submissive its because you want to be and not because it was brainwashed into you? How can I ever be sure I truely want to be used for someone's pleasure when it has been ingrained in my that it is my purpose to do so?

Where do you go from there, without certainty of your own mind? How can you determine your own mind?

I didn't mean that I learned I had to be submissive to be wanted, so much. I believe I feel submissive because I was taught not to ask for anything, and was also taught that I was wrong (bad, a slut, dirty, etc.) for wanting anything sexual. If I'm doing what my partner has asked me to do, not only do I not have to ask for anything or worry about being rejected, but also the responsibility is taken out of my hands. I'm not bad or a slut or whatever, because I'm just doing what I was asked to do.

I might have had submissive tendencies even if I hadn't dealt with abuse. I'll never know the answer to that. That question is the main reason I'm not exploring my submissive side more fully, though; I don't know if I'd be submissive without having been abused, and I don't want to engage in something that I might be doing for the wrong reasons.

Hell yeah on the sign on your head... I've felt that for 33 years. (I'm 37.)

Please know that I'm not saying sexual abuse "causes" anyone to be into BDSM or any other type of sexual activity; I don't believe that to be the case. I'm speaking only of and for myself, and speaking from my own questioning and curiosity about what makes me tick.

 

[nickollette]

I haven't read the whole thread yet, from the half of it I have read, the insinuated animosity towards this annoys me slightly.

I have been sexually abused, as a child primarily. I haven't worked through that to the extent I know I should, but as of now I've managed to block it out enough to where it doesn't affect me too much unless I have to be around the person who did it. I would like to think that my interest in BDSM doesn't stem from that, but I could definately see how it could. I don't feel like going back to look for it, I think there was also a question as to whether people may use BDSM aspects as an excuse to ultimately hurt themself. I've inflicted pain on myself for 8 years, only stopping within the last 2 years, I can see the parallels there. Every now and again, I've come close to entering the same numb mindset I would go into before I would hurt myself, but the fact that it is another person inflicting pain and not myself is the biggest difference which is why I can never get to the same point I would get to when it was me hurting myself. When I think about why I want to experience pain, it isn't because I want someone else to do it for me. From what I've come up with so far, my sub side is in large part at its best when everyday life is off the charts stressful and I know I need to take a step back from being in charge all the time, only way I can really do that effectively is when I sub, when that sense of being able to control things is taken away. I guess aside from being fun and all around interesting to learn about, it serves as a way to clear my head back to rational thinking for everyday life situations.

I'm not sure I believe completely that BDSM and sexual abuse correlate, I can see how to an extent, but I'm not sure how much they really might. I do completely believe that your sexual patterns correlate to sexual abuse. My mom and aunt, for arguments sake I'm assuming they lead a non kinky sex life. They were both regularly sexually, menatally and physically abused by their father. My mom has slept with 3 people in her life, 2 of which she has been married to, she's been sexually active for 30 years, 25 of those years have been with my stepdad. I would easily say, from what she's told me and from my own opinions, she took the typical route where sex was harder for her to have, brough too many memories back from what her father did. My aunt took the promiscuous route, not even going to try to guess how many people there have been. I think it's really amazing to see the 2 routes a lot of abused people tend to take, exhibited within the same family dynamic. I know, in the end it all comes down to how you cope with what happened, but it's still interesting to see both sides between two sisters.

I think what kind, how often, and our notions about sex in general come a lot from what we were taught(or not taught) to think about it. If we were lead to think it should be conservative, nothing out of the normal, we either lead that kind of sex life, or completely rebel against it. If sex was open for discussion and not made an awkward topic, we probably will be more open to the many aspects of it, maybe even willing to try a lot of them. I think that it just all comes down to what you believe, sure there can be a correlation between the two, but just like everything else out there, it's so hard to take a general theory and make it work for a specific group.