Critique and writing

[My Erotic Trail]

Ah, come on Liar, where is that Viking spirit? Get the Axe out!

also

Kudos to Raiman, Tzara, Flyguy69, WickedEve, etc. - I've seen some of your comments, I thank you.

No disrespect, but I am trying to understand why you feel the need to axe poems and praise those that tread on poetry with critiques as if this is your main mission, more than just reading, learning and growing as a writer. But you find more enjoyment in reading and critiquing than simply reading and or writing. Perhaps that is what the thread starter was implying?

 

[TheRainMan]

No disrespect, but I am trying to understand why you feel the need to axe poems and praise those that tread on poetry with critiques as if this is your main mission, more than just reading, learning and growing as a writer. But you find more enjoyment in reading and critiquing than simply reading and or writing. Perhaps that is what the thread starter was implying?

I don't by any means intend to answer for 1201. He is quite capable of answering for himself any questions asked of him.

But here is my answer to what seems like a general and genuine question that you are asking because you do not seem to see the answer to it.

It seems simple enough to me, maybe because for me it has worked wonders having others tell me their opinions, their truths, about my writing.

Critique is how you learn . . .

by trying to understand how your writing looks to eyes other than your own, who may see faults that you yourself can not see in your own writing, by offering suggestions for improvement you might never think of (and when I use the word "you", it is plural, meaning all of us . . . everyone) because you are too close to your writing or simply not as skilled as the reader, by giving you things to contemplate and judge, and either use or not use, as you see fit,

and by looking at the writing of others to see how they think and phrase, and see what techniques and tricks they know that you may adopt and mold into your own writing.

It is much harder to learn by oneself. That is a simple fact. Sharing ideas and methods increases both the speed of a writer's progress and their degree of improvement.

And it is quite clear that bogusbrig, in starting this thread, was implying nothing of the sort you suggest. He was not suggesting (and again I do not answer for him, but give you my own feelings) that anyone should write and read and not critique. He was simply posing a question as to what everyone thought the connection was between good writing and good critiquing.

 

[Zanzibar]

diffferent frames of mind

I've found that I am in totally different frames of mind when I write, versus when I am in editor mode. I guess thats because part of my consulting work is as an editor, or technical writing (proposals/business reports where the formats a given)while my writing is usually for pleasure.

However, having gone through a long period of working with different engineers, managers and customers, I had to come up with a critique style that would get the point across, and still keep me employed. I learned how to give constructive feedback... even wrote up the method and have it posted here. Links in my signature.

As for writing, much of the time it starts with a spontanous spark of creativity, or even a "challenge" that gets the mind going and the story just happens. Same with many poems.. at least the first draft, then the real work begins...

 

[Liar]

No disrespect, but I am trying to understand why you feel the need to axe poems and praise those that tread on poetry with critiques...

Why the harsh rhethorics there? What you call "threading on poetry" I would call examining and offering a new perspective. Sharing your perspective on things and letting others share their perspectives with you... there is imo no better way to learn and to expand one's mind.

Would you rather just have a cornucopia of poems, and no reflection on them?

curiously,

 

[bogusbrig]

It is much harder to learn by oneself. That is a simple fact. Sharing ideas and methods increases both the speed of a writer's progress and their degree of improvement.

I have to fully agree with this because of my own experience on Lit. The infamous Hs were a nice ego boost in the beginning but totally useless when trying to develop and improve ones poetry. There is no substitute for exchanging ideas, whether through reading other people's work, critiquing it or having ones own work the subject of the forensic eye of a competent critic.

I've gone from intuitively writing what I thought poetry should be to experimenting (I admit not wholly successfully and sometimes naively) as my confidence has grown. I don't think I would have moved so far and so fast without competent criticism. Criticism I think, is invalueable and it's a skill I would like to master, as much for the sake of my own work as the appreciation of other's work.

And it is quite clear that bogusbrig, in starting this thread, was implying nothing of the sort you suggest. He was not suggesting (and again I do not answer for him, but give you my own feelings) that anyone should write and read and not critique. He was simply posing a question as to what everyone thought the connection was between good writing and good critiquing.

I was simply posing the question as to what everyone thought the connection was between good writing and good critiquing.

I see a connection as I think most of us do. Logic says if you are a good critic you should be a good writer too but we know this is not necessarily the case which is the reason I posed the question.

 

[My Erotic Trail]

I don't by any means intend to answer for 1201. He is quite capable of answering for himself any questions asked of him.

But here is my answer to what seems like a general and genuine question that you are asking because you do not seem to see the answer to it.

It seems simple enough to me, maybe because for me it has worked wonders having others tell me their opinions, their truths, about my writing.

Critique is how you learn . . .

by trying to understand how your writing looks to eyes other than your own, who may see faults that you yourself can not see in your own writing, by offering suggestions for improvement you might never think of (and when I use the word "you", it is plural, meaning all of us . . . everyone) because you are too close to your writing or simply not as skilled as the reader, by giving you things to contemplate and judge, and either use or not use, as you see fit,

and by looking at the writing of others to see how they think and phrase, and see what techniques and tricks they know that you may adopt and mold into your own writing.

It is much harder to learn by oneself. That is a simple fact. Sharing ideas and methods increases both the speed of a writer's progress and their degree of improvement.

And it is quite clear that bogusbrig, in starting this thread, was implying nothing of the sort you suggest. He was not suggesting (and again I do not answer for him, but give you my own feelings) that anyone should write and read and not critique. He was simply posing a question as to what everyone thought the connection was between good writing and good critiquing.

Critique is only one of the many ways to learn, reading others poetry and styles, language skills with grammar lessons and structures, classes, online courses, workshops and edits, those that help with a poem long before it is surfaced 'published' and an opinion is then relayed as a critique. That generally gives one person's opinion of the editor's version.

Thank You Pat for your opinion, earnestly! I was curious when (you and others) felt a need or a polite gesture to remark and break a poem down. When I read a poem and see errors in it, I don't reflect that as a bad poem but instead try and absorb what the poet was trying to relay. As they grow we both know they will correct bad habits and form a more easily read style. Without badgering the poet to be more serious (I think every one is serious about what they write or do not write for very long), except the survival entry's which are fillers for points (there are exceptions in every thing) here too, (lucious and decayed angel etc are serious about their poetry)

Like sprouts in the garden of poetry, some need to rise a tad before being sniped at. You have a circle of those that look forward to your opinions and break down of their poems, they are already in full bloom and asking to be tied to the terrace for they need their vines to grow one way or another. In feedback or PM if they ask for an edit or my honest opinion, I then will point out the grammar factors and suggestions, but not until then. This is an armature literary site not a workshop or a college course yet we all do wish to learn from a variety of individual's literary creations with out what some prefer to absorb as harshness teaches best.

Correct, the thread was started as addressing the topic of critique and writing and not implying... I was curious how one learns from a critique, this is stated as a persons opinion. To accept a critique as being right and changing to be more like them and then another critic may voice their likes and dislikes changes the poem again and then the poem is not what was originally the feelings of the poets first words but rather a bonsai shaped to be what many wanted. (perfecting... true but to whom's eyes) there is beauty in this but a forest is untouched and wild as the jungle's depths. You can not prune a forest, are you unhappy with it because it is wild and feel a need to rearrange the forest or accept it for what it is?

It is like (you) for example, walk into the woods and pick one tree to trim and shape. I don't really find faults in what you do as you seem to do it kindly and earnest in your need to change poetry for the better. But others break out the Axe, chain saw and ready for the mill <grin...

I know your a teacher and have this 'teacher mode' you go into, is this the critic's mind and ways, teacher habits, or a simple need to express your re-write of a persons poem? The traits that give you a name as a critic reflect from your poetry, I could go into a long list of things about your poetry <laughing> I know some want to write this way, I do not, it is just not my cup of tea, but then again my poetry is not yours either.

I have accepted the fact that there is a large amount of differences here in poetry and that is great, a good example would be to look at the different opinions for the Sappho and Eros poetry contest, a very good mix of likes and dislikes. A large versatility of styles and topics from a grand group of poets here at lit. and no way to attach a critic to them <laughing... have a nice day

 

[My Erotic Trail]

Why the harsh rhethorics there? What you call "threading on poetry" I would call examining and offering a new perspective. Sharing your perspective on things and letting others share their perspectives with you... there is imo no better way to learn and to expand one's mind.

Would you rather just have a cornucopia of poems, and no reflection on them?

curiously,

well there is the feast and then the opinions of the fruit within, they can ponder the fertilization process and the harvest and the times in which to plant as well as how good or bad the fruit is or simply accept the fruit for what it is. Two sets of minds, those that would rebuild something and those that accept what is, understanding that time and patience will evolve a better crop for the cornacopia.

I suppose that would be the youth 'yakking'; about everything under the sun as the old man watches with the knowledge that they will think of something different to talk about tomorrow, while biting into his fruit and saying, Damn that was good!" <grin

 

[My Erotic Trail]

I see a connection as I think most of us do. Logic says if you are a good critic you should be a good writer too but we know this is not necessarily the case which is the reason I posed the question.

I have to agree with this for those that feel a need to critique are the ones I find that their poetry is not at all to my liking, although eve's poetry sometimes grabs me. YDD's poem did not reflect the great critic that all claimed her to be, it is easier to critique than to write. Some spend a vast amount of time leaving critiques rather than write poetry so this must be a mind set of a passion to do so for I don't feel the need to change any one <grin well.... I'll leave that alone (~_*)

 

[Tathagata]

I know your a teacher and have this 'teacher mode' you go into,

says Master Po

 

[My Erotic Trail]

says Master Po

well Master Pool, WTSD would say a lesson should come as easily as learning what a breeze is by simply feeling it. And that 'everything' can generate a strong enough force in some manner to allow you to learn what a storm is as well.

 

[Liar]

I have to agree with this for those that feel a need to critique are the ones I find that their poetry is not at all to my liking, although eve's poetry sometimes grabs me. YDD's poem did not reflect the great critic that all claimed her to be, it is easier to critique than to write. Some spend a vast amount of time leaving critiques rather than write poetry so this must be a mind set of a passion to do so for I don't feel the need to change any one <grin well.... I'll leave that alone (~_*)

Just wanted to say that I find it very hard hard to critique, while I have no problem at all to write poetry. For some people it's probably the other way around. People are different.

I think that opinion you voiced comes from that it can, for some people, be seen as emotionally easier to publish sloppy critique than a sloppy poem. When I offer critique, I want it to be as thorough and as thought-through as anything else I write. So sure, if you don't have any ambition with a critiue, then it's easy to toss one off. Likewise, if I didn't have the ambition to put quality into my poems, I could write ten/day.

I have to salute those who are able to come up with specific and high quality feedback for so many poems on a daily basis. For 19 out of 20 poems I read, all I can say is "kinda good" or "didn't like". Or often just "uuh".

 

[Tathagata]

well Master Pool, WTSD would say a lesson should come as easily as learning what a breeze is by simply feeling it. And that 'everything' can generate a strong enough force in some manner to allow you to learn what a storm is as well.

Those who know don't talk.

Those who talk don't know.



Tao te Ching

 

[My Erotic Trail]

Those who know don't talk.

Those who talk don't know.



Tao te Ching

one may be a master of one thing
yet a student in another

 

[Tathagata]

one may be a master of one thing
yet a student in another

actually Art my point was that your obsessive defense of your beliefs shows a weakness of spirit and an attachment to ego
which we all know is contrary to the Zen code you espouse.

but I'm much too polite to say so directly

and besides who am I to judge?

 

[My Erotic Trail]

actually Art my point was that your obsessive defense of your beliefs shows a weakness of spirit and an attachment to ego
which we all know is contrary to the Zen code you espouse.

but I'm much too polite to say so directly

and besides who am I to judge?

I politely expressed my opinion and how you judge that will not change my beliefs just as it will not change a critic's belief in re-writes. Nor does this mean your assumption is correct. It is the way of Tao...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In ancient China, the keeper of the Imperial Library, Lao Tzu, was famous for his wisdom. Perceiving the growing corruption of the government, he left for the countryside. On his way, the guard at the city gates asked Lao Tzu to write out the essence of his understanding to benefit future generations. Lao Tzu wrote the Tao Te Ching, left, and was never heard of again.

The Tao Te Ching (also called "The Tao", "The Dao" or the "Dao De Jing"), by Lao Tzu, is one of the most influential books in history. It is the source of famous Chinese sayings such as "Those who know do not speak, those who speak, do not know" and "Even a 1,000 mile journey starts with a single step".
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

To learn by keeping quite may still learn but not as fast as those who ask questions, I seek the essence of understanding and as you know this is not my first step <grin

 

[Tathagata]

I politely expressed my opinion and how you judge that will not change my beliefs just as it will not change a critic's belief in re-writes. Nor does this mean your assumption is correct. It is the way of Tao...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In ancient China, the keeper of the Imperial Library, Lao Tzu, was famous for his wisdom. Perceiving the growing corruption of the government, he left for the countryside. On his way, the guard at the city gates asked Lao Tzu to write out the essence of his understanding to benefit future generations. Lao Tzu wrote the Tao Te Ching, left, and was never heard of again.

The Tao Te Ching (also called "The Tao", "The Dao" or the "Dao De Jing"), by Lao Tzu, is one of the most influential books in history. It is the source of famous Chinese sayings such as "Those who know do not speak, those who speak, do not know" and "Even a 1,000 mile journey starts with a single step".
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

To learn by keeping quite may still learn but not as fast as those who ask questions, I seek the essence of understanding and as you know this is not my first step <grin

I see you are in " teacher" mode again

Thank you for your opinion as you know there is no " right or wrong" which is why your constant arguments baffle me.

I am well aware of the history behind the tao te ching


I didn't expect to change your beliefs
you cling to them
only time will show you that nothing clings
I would never presume to be a " teacher"

have a good day

 

[Tzara]

An edit is a critique as well only it is done before the final out come and an aid to the poet. Once the poem is submitted and displayed it is as an artists painting, to be observed and remarks commented.

I was re-reading part of this thread and this statement struck me as another point where there are different viewpoints or preconceptions about the what and why of commentary.

This statement indicates that MET believes that once a poem has been submitted to Lit for presentation on the New Poems thread that it is complete and will not be altered by the author—that the author is satisfied with the poem as is and merely seeks comment on a completed work, as he says "an artist's painting, to be observed and ... commented [upon]". That is quite possibly true for a number of the people who submit poems here. Certainly the importance placed on voting, 'H's, and Top Lists by many of the contributors indicates that Lit is considered to be the "marketplace" in which their poems are intended to be presented.

There are significant numbers of others who appear to treat their poems here as being submitted "in workshop"—i.e., presented in various forms of draft for comment, improvement, and, often, for submission elsewhere.

One might infer from these two attitudes that authors in the first group would not be interested in editorial comments (what would be the point if the poem is considered to be in final form?) and that authors in the second group would welcome them (as input that might aid them in the process of revising the poem).

This division seems perfectly reasonable to me. I have no desire or interest in commenting (meaning here, specifically, offering editorial commentary) on a poem where the author is not interested in receiving it. It is significant work for me and potentially a source of pain or irritation for the recipient.

On the other hand, I find the notion that no one should offer suggestions on poems where the author would appreciate receiving them and in fact has often specifically solicited them bizarre.

 

[Tathagata]

I was re-reading part of this thread and this statement struck me as another point where there are different viewpoints or preconceptions about the what and why of commentary.

This statement indicates that MET believes that once a poem has been submitted to Lit for presentation on the New Poems thread that it is complete and will not be altered by the author—that the author is satisfied with the poem as is and merely seeks comment on a completed work, as he says "an artist's painting, to be observed and ... commented [upon]". That is quite possibly true for a number of the people who submit poems here. Certainly the importance placed on voting, 'H's, and Top Lists by many of the contributors indicates that Lit is considered to be the "marketplace" in which their poems are intended to be presented.

There are significant numbers of others who appear to treat their poems here as being submitted "in workshop"—i.e., presented in various forms of draft for comment, improvement, and, often, for submission elsewhere.

One might infer from these two attitudes that authors in the first group would not be interested in editorial comments (what would be the point if the poem is considered to be in final form?) and that authors in the second group would welcome them (as input that might aid them in the process of revising the poem).

This division seems perfectly reasonable to me. I have no desire or interest in commenting (meaning here, specifically, offering editorial commentary) on a poem where the author is not interested in receiving it. It is significant work for me and potentially a source of pain or irritation for the recipient.

On the other hand, I find the notion that no one should offer suggestions on poems where the author would appreciate receiving them and in fact has often specifically solicited them bizarre.

Ya know
when I understand what the fuck you're talking about you make a lot of sense

 

[Liar]

One might infer from these two attitudes that authors in the first group would not be interested in editorial comments (what would be the point if the poem is considered to be in final form?) and that authors in the second group would welcome them (as input that might aid them in the process of revising the poem).

This division seems perfectly reasonable to me. I have no desire or interest in commenting (meaning here, specifically, offering editorial commentary) on a poem where the author is not interested in receiving it. It is significant work for me and potentially a source of pain or irritation for the recipient.

And then you have me. I welcome and appreciate editorial comments on my poems. But I would not usually revise a sumbitted poem.

Why when would I want editorial comments? Because they teach me things, and gives me insight on how to improve. Not improve the poem, but improve me as a poet. I use this insight in the creation process of the next poem. I'm not married to the pieces of text I squeeze out. They are always practice for the next one.

I shall now go and heed to 1201's advise, and leave a few comments of my own.

Oh, don't worry, Art. The axe is just a prop.

 

[Tathagata]

I'm not married to the pieces of text I squeeze out. They are always practice for the next one.

exactly!!

every work remains a work in progress...even if you don't know it


It always amazed me when people like Mozart wrote music down as ' finished' because I always want to go back and fix shit.
when I submit things to websites now i read it and say " jesus this is fuckin terrible'

in Mozart's case, of course, he was right, it was perfect and finished and right.

 

[Zanzibar]

I was re-reading part of this thread and this statement struck me as another point where there are different viewpoints or preconceptions about the what and why of commentary.

This statement indicates that MET believes that once a poem has been submitted to Lit for presentation on the New Poems thread that it is complete and will not be altered by the author—that the author is satisfied with the poem as is and merely seeks comment on a completed work, as he says "an artist's painting, to be observed and ... commented [upon]". That is quite possibly true for a number of the people who submit poems here. Certainly the importance placed on voting, 'H's, and Top Lists by many of the contributors indicates that Lit is considered to be the "marketplace" in which their poems are intended to be presented.

There are significant numbers of others who appear to treat their poems here as being submitted "in workshop"—i.e., presented in various forms of draft for comment, improvement, and, often, for submission elsewhere.

One might infer from these two attitudes that authors in the first group would not be interested in editorial comments (what would be the point if the poem is considered to be in final form?) and that authors in the second group would welcome them (as input that might aid them in the process of revising the poem).

This division seems perfectly reasonable to me. I have no desire or interest in commenting (meaning here, specifically, offering editorial commentary) on a poem where the author is not interested in receiving it. It is significant work for me and potentially a source of pain or irritation for the recipient.

On the other hand, I find the notion that no one should offer suggestions on poems where the author would appreciate receiving them and in fact has often specifically solicited them bizarre.

In my mind, Literotica has made it very easy for an author to indicate if he wants to receive feedback on a poem/story or not. Both the comments section and voting options are able to be turned off. (In fact, didn't that used to be the default, so an author had to make a concious choice to allow readers to comment/vote?) Part of the problem appears to be that some authors only want comments that praise their work, not just having an issue with the abrasive manner in which some critics disect others works.

But back to the main thrust of the original post - I think for someone to be an "effective" critic or writer takes the same kind of talents. In my case it takes a different frame of mind for serious works betrween critiquing and writing, because when I write I worry about getting my message across - while when giving someone feedback I both have to make sure I get my point across, but also have to make sure it's done in such a manner that the author understands it, and can receive it and use it. Not everyone is capable of that.

 

[Guest]

I'm of the opinion that being a critic and being a writer are two different skills, not necessarily divorced from each other but different enough for someone to be good at one and no good at the other.

From what I believe, we can be both. It's just like giving reviews/comments/opinions on amazon when we buy books, etc. It's just much different when we're on a site such as Lit which has a forum as well. We're dealing with each other nearly every day and some things are very personal - if you know what I mean. We can give others advice or constructive criticism on what we believe would sound or make a better poem, but there is a kind way of doing so. Hey, let's give the writer some encouragment with our crits.

Examples:
1.) I look forward in reading more from you. <smilie>
2.) Keep writing and remember, the more you read, the more you'll learn. <smilie>

3.) Write on! <smilie>
4.) I hope this helps. <smilie>

I think smilies are very important. It shows you're trying to help without offending them.

Also, I don't believe being a teacher or having credentials means you're any different than anyone else. You can still give your advice or opinion in a kind manner. The writer can then decide what s/he wants to do with the information given.

 

[twelveoone]

No disrespect, but I am trying to understand why you feel the need to axe poems and praise those that tread on poetry with critiques as if this is your main mission, more than just reading, learning and growing as a writer. But you find more enjoyment in reading and critiquing than simply reading and or writing. Perhaps that is what the thread starter was implying?

None taken, my apologies for the delay in answer.
The people I mentioned do not tread on poetry, all have a tendency to improve it. Despite, I having somewhat contrary views, I learn from them, even more from thier critiques, suggestions. It is what is known as failure analysis. No one can see everything, they particulary are valuable sets of eyes. Their value, I assume is recogized by the recipients. Their value, I hope would also be recogised, by anyone else reading the poem, AND the comments, not for following the leader, but rather for others to begin to understand the possibilities for improvement. They do not set the standard, the writer does, it is hoped that the writer raises their standards by exposure.

They Are the unsung heros here, pardon me for singing a little.

What you have accused me in the past regarding criticism, I do to myself. The people I have been harsh and blunt with are most generally the people I have the most respect for, and that doesn't compare with what I do to my own. One reason you don't see alot of my writing.

First poetry is a product, consider them as safety inspectors.
To move it beyond mere product, consider them as potential guides.
Another reason, you don't see much from me; these guides are in short order and had for a while disappeared.

The Axe was a bit of a joke. But consider this, everyone that has been "mauled" has lived, become better. Two extreme examples, Pat Carrington in his not for the thin-skinned was hit with a swarm, and still then followed by two SOB's, (pardon pun) he also defended what he wrote. I think it may have helped to move it past mere product. TaraBlackwood22 was merciless in private, and in PDC did so in public, to me, either forcing me to discard dumb ideas, or defend what I thought she couldn't see. I would like to move beyond mere product she I owe, for the help. I don't suggest that this should be done for everyone, but voices like these are rare.

 

[twelveoone]

. He was simply posing a question as to what everyone thought the connection was between good writing and good critiquing.

Somewhere in here I was hoping for a response from Tzara, Oh well. I guess I'm just wacked since I'm concerned with theories of construction and perception.

 

[Liar]

Somewhere in here I was hoping for a response from Tzara, Oh well. I guess I'm just wacked since I'm concerned with theories of construction and perception.

...and the fuzzy logic defying both common sense and quantum mechanics that resides in the void between them.
Hehe, I live and breathe those buggers 8-10 hours/day. I write poems in my spare time.