Death Penalty For Being Gay

[Stella_Omega]

Then I would say to you that you know plenty of people who are uneducated about the ways that disease are spread. Sexually transmitted diseases are generally spread without regard to gender. The only point where I defer on this is where there is little to no penetration with fluid transfer. Lesbians seem to have a smaller risk of contracting HIV, but are still at high risk for the Herpes Simplex viruses as well as diseases like gonorrhea and syphilis.

I would also point out that these people, while they may consider themselves "non religious" have lived their entire lives in a religious society and have had those beliefs taught them.

The idea that homosexuals spread disease is religious, using disease as an excuse.
the idea that it goes against nature is religious using bad science as an excuse.

 

[none2_none2]

Then I would say to you that you know plenty of people who are uneducated about the ways that disease are spread. Sexually transmitted diseases are generally spread without regard to gender. The only point where I defer on this is where there is little to no penetration with fluid transfer. Lesbians seem to have a smaller risk of contracting HIV, but are still at high risk for the Herpes Simplex viruses as well as diseases like gonorrhea and syphilis.

Then you are perpetuating the biggest fallacy of all by assuming that faith equates ignorance and lack of faith somehow should equate to understanding.

If homosexuality was only something that only religion condemned, then why was it so repressed in communist countries? Russia had some of the most repressive laws against homosexuality. Just because the loudest voice at this time is from some churches, doesn't mean that if they were to disappear and everybody forgot about religion that somehow we would be embraced as equals.

Bottom line one can condemn homosexuality because one feels it is against God's will, a capitalist illness, a colonialists (western) hedonist practice (as some homophobic Africans feel), a mental illness, a diseased practice, something against natural law, or whatever one may come up with . People come up with all sorts of reasons to justify what they dislike. Religion is just one of many weapons in the arsenal of intolerance towards homosexuals. If you cannot see that, then your mind is clouded by your own bias against religion. As an analog: You can fight passionately against chemical weapons because you are against war, but if you also don't recognize the existence of biological weapons, nuclear weapons, etc. and help fight against them too, then your fight is in vain.

 

[Guest]

Then you are perpetuating the biggest fallacy of all by assuming that faith equates ignorance and lack of faith somehow should equate to understanding.

What I said in the above post had nothing to do with religion. Previous posts did, but not what you quoted.

If homosexuality was only something that only religion condemned, then why was it so repressed in communist countries? Russia had some of the most repressive laws against homosexuality. Just because the loudest voice at this time is from some churches, doesn't mean that if they were to disappear and everybody forgot about religion that somehow we would be embraced as equals.

The problem with that argument is that we had religion for thousands of years and are now only beginning to crawl out from under religions oppressive shadow. The people that grew up hating homosexuals (whatever their professed reason) grew up in a religious background. That is not something that is up for debate. We still grow up in a religious background. Crosses are everywhere, billboards for Jesus are everywhere and scripture is quoted on television. Religion is forced down our throats at every turn. By people who believe in a talking snake and read a book that promotes horrible horrible acts of condemnation, murder, genital mutilation and the belief that the stars are going to fall from the sky.

Bottom line one can condemn homosexuality because one feels it is against God's will, a capitalist illness, a colonialists (western) hedonist practice (as some homophobic Africans feel), a mental illness, a diseased practice, something against natural law, or whatever one may come up with . People come up with all sorts of reasons to justify what they dislike. Religion is just one of many weapons in the arsenal of intolerance towards homosexuals. If you cannot see that, then your mind is clouded by your own bias against religion. As an analog: You can fight passionately against chemical weapons because you are against war, but if you also don't recognize the existence of biological weapons, nuclear weapons, etc. and help fight against them too, then your fight is in vain.

I couldn't agree with you more. Everything you said in that snippet is 100% true. But the statement that:

Religion is just one of many weapons in the arsenal of intolerance towards homosexuals

does not excuse religious people from their complicity in the condemnation of homosexuals, lesbians and transgendered persons. Just because everyone else is doing it does not mean that "God's people" can too. After all, if God really wanted them to be straight he could have made them that way. "Free will" (which is the only way you can square homosexuality with religious beliefs) is a copout that goes against the concept of an all powerful God.

Ignorance: lack of knowledge
Knowledge: acquaintance with facts, truths, or principles, as from study or investigation
Faith: belief without facts

Thus, faith is belief without facts or knowledge, and equates to ignorance. At least on the subject of creation, and anything else that is tied to religion. When you base your beliefs on a book so obviously written by man and heavily edited over the centuries, then claim that it is God's will, you only show your faith.

 

[pointless]

Jesus died for somebody's sins but not mine
meltin' in a pot of thieves
wild card up my sleeve
thick heart of stone
my sins my own
they belong to me, me

people say "beware!"
but I don't care
the words are just
rules and regulations to me, me

I-I walk in a room, you know I look so proud
I'm movin' in this here atmosphere, well, anything's allowed
and I go to this here party and I just get bored
until I look out the window, see a sweet young thing
humpin' on the parking meter, leanin' on the parking meter
oh, she looks so good, oh, she looks so fine
and I got this crazy feeling and then I'm gonna ah-ah make her mine
ooh I'll put my spell on her

here she comes
walkin' down the street
here she comes
comin' through my door
here she comes
crawlin' up my stair
here she comes
waltzin' through the hall
in a pretty red dress
and oh, she looks so good, oh, she looks so fine
and I got this crazy feeling that I'm gonna ah-ah make her mine

and then I hear this knockin' on my door
hear this knockin' on my door
and I look up into the big tower clock
and say, "oh my God here's midnight!"
and my baby is walkin' through the door
leanin' on my couch she whispers to me and I take the big plunge
and oh, she was so good and oh, she was so fine
and I'm gonna tell the world that I just ah-ah made her mine

and I said darling, tell me your name, she told me her name
she whispered to me, she told me her name
and her name is, and her name is, and her name is, and her name is G-L-O-R-I-A
G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria
G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria

I was at the stadium
There were twenty thousand girls called their names out to me
Marie and Ruth but to tell you the truth
I didn't hear them I didn't see
I let my eyes rise to the big tower clock
and I heard those bells chimin' in my heart
going ding dong ding dong ding dong ding dong.
ding dong ding dong ding dong ding dong
counting the time, then you came to my room
and you whispered to me and we took the big plunge
and oh. you were so good, oh, you were so fine
and I gotta tell the world that I make her mine make her mine
make her mine make her mine make her mine make her mine

G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria,
G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria

and the tower bells chime, "ding dong" they chime
they're singing, "Jesus died for somebody's sins but not mine."

Gloria G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria G-L-O-R-I-A,
Gloria G-L-O-R-I-A, G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria
G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria,
G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria,
G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria .

 

[Guest]

Thank you, Pointless, I think..... ??

 

[Guest]

Here's the bottom nine, none2_none2. I believe (whatever my reasons) that condemning homosexuals and putting them to death is wrong.

From what I have read of you, you do as well.

If that is the case, then I have no quarrel with you that belongs in the confines of this thread.

If you want to argue Jesus and faith and atheism and logic elsewhere feel free to send me a PM, or we can start our own thread.

(I think we hijacked this one long enough)

~Paul

 

[none2_none2]

Here's the bottom nine, none2_none2. I believe (whatever my reasons) that condemning homosexuals and putting them to death is wrong.

From what I have read of you, you do as well.

If that is the case, then I have no quarrel with you that belongs in the confines of this thread.

If you want to argue Jesus and faith and atheism and logic elsewhere feel free to send me a PM, or we can start our own thread.

(I think we hijacked this one long enough)

~Paul

There is no reason to debate this further. I simply believe that you give way too much power to religion for the condemnation of homosexuals. Your attitude sounds similar to the 1900 century western attitude of the noble savage. The thought was that somehow western ideas contaminated what otherwise would be a perfect society. Sure western thought had a lot of negative impacts on other cultures, but the fact is that there is no perfect society. Just like western civilization didn't destroy some perfect state of mankind, neither did religion destroy some perfect state of humanity.

Humans are capable of doing wonderful things as well as horrible things whether they believe that there is no God, one God, or many gods. If you want the perfect example of a group free of religion doing bad things, all you have to do is study our cousins -- the chimps. Jane Goodall observed that some chimps broke off from the main group. A few months later they were all attacked by the primary group and all were killed. It is also interesting to note that most of the killing was done by young males. This wasn't about competition for food, it was pure blood lust.

Religion has the power to enhance ones existence and the existence of those others around or the exact opposite affect. It is the individual beliver (or non-believer) that determins how they live their own life and whether they want to believe in something or not. We are NOT victims of our particular culture/religion, we are participants who have free will to accept what we want or not and to do good or bad things.

Specifically to this thread, people in these countries would want to kill gays regardless of their religious background. Until they are willing to control their murderous impulses, nothing will change.

 

[busybody..]

Over the centuries people who misunderstood or misinterpreted the Bible have done terrible things. The Bible has been misused to defend bloody crusades and tragic inquisitions; to support slavery, apartheid, and segregation; to persecute Jews and other non-Christian people of faith; to support Hitler's Third Reich and the Holocaust; to oppose medical science; to condemn interracial marriage; to execute women as witches; and to support the Ku Klux Klan. Shakespeare said it this way: "Even the devil can cite Scripture for his purpose.

That said it better than I ever could and you can find the rest of the text at:
http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-gay-christian




http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1533487/Jews-and-Muslims-unite-against-homosexuals.html

http://www.critpath.org/pflag-talk/jews&gays.htm

Now, of the three major religions, i will concede that Judaism is much more tolerant of same sex acts and marriage than Islam or Christianity. The Old Testament, however forbids homosexual acts. I believe that Jews have become more tolerant of homosexuality simply because they have been persecuted for so long and know what it is like to be labeled different. That is, however an opinion and not a fact

But the whole thing serves, to me at least, to once again point out that the Bible and religion as a whole is made up by man to assuage our own fears. Hence my original post.

so lemme get this straight

you point to MANY centuries ago against Christianity?????????????????


You should be worried about MOOSELIMBS TODAY!

 

[HarlotMinx]

Religion has the power to enhance ones existence and the existence of those others around or the exact opposite affect. It is the individual beliver (or non-believer) that determins how they live their own life and whether they want to believe in something or not. We are NOT victims of our particular culture/religion, we are participants who have free will to accept what we want or not and to do good or bad things.

Specifically to this thread, people in these countries would want to kill gays regardless of their religious background. Until they are willing to control their murderous impulses, nothing will change.

Okay lets combine a tad of realism into both your arguments. Maybe Christianity itself is a idea, a book, a religion; however just like with Islam people, social movement rather, have exhibited great sadism, ignorance, and intolerance in the name of religion. Now, did religion itself force them to these ends? Well no, I mean, of course the bible didn't force the crusades but the catholic church did and in a sense that means that Christianity did. So yes every single person is responsible for themselves but religion is more than the ideas and the words, it's how people live it.

Actually ironically the most homosexually tolerant religion would be Islam. Though you can see how that's worked out for gay Muslims. People have a tendency to fill in where they think their religious works left off.

 

[pointless]

Okay lets combine a tad of realism into both your arguments. Maybe Christianity itself is a idea, a book, a religion; however just like with Islam people, social movement rather, have exhibited great sadism, ignorance, and intolerance in the name of religion. Now, did religion itself force them to these ends? Well no, I mean, of course the bible didn't force the crusades but the catholic church did and in a sense that means that Christianity did. So yes every single person is responsible for themselves but religion is more than the ideas and the words, it's how people live it.

Actually ironically the most homosexually tolerant religion would be Islam. Though you can see how that's worked out for gay Muslims. People have a tendency to fill in where they think their religious works left off.

well, relatively tolerant for male homosexuality. not so much for women who, though lesbianism is not mentioned in the koran, can basically be killed for having sex with anyone but their husband.

 

[HarlotMinx]

well, relatively tolerant for male homosexuality. not so much for women who, though lesbianism is not mentioned in the koran, can basically be killed for having sex with anyone but their husband.

The fact it's not mentioned in the qur'an hints that it's a social environment that prohibits lesbianism and not the texts by itself. Actually their are a couple cases of wives of the same man having lesbian relationships and having it be acceptable as long as they're also having sex with their husband. And your right, their is a amount of acceptability of male homosexual relationships as long as they'll still take a wife.

 

[pointless]

The fact it's not mentioned in the qur'an hints that it's a social environment that prohibits lesbianism and not the texts by itself. Actually their are a couple cases of wives of the same man having lesbian relationships and having it be acceptable as long as they're also having sex with their husband. And your right, their is a amount of acceptability of male homosexual relationships as long as they'll still take a wife.

well, i'm not sure, but i believe the koran was also written for men much like the bible.

regarding the second part of your paragraph: are you saying that those relationships are mentioned in the koran or am i misunderstanding you? if so where. if not my apologies for misunderstanding you.

just curious. i've had this discussion before.

 

[HarlotMinx]

For that matter the Hadith doesn't say anything either and generally that's what people who commits terrorism acts are found quoting and not the qur'an. Not that the Hadith encourages what's going on currently either, just that it's more often quoted since it's considered the actual words of muhammed (even though it was written after his death by his friends and Aisha (if you don't know who Aisha is, look her up, it's fascinating how close Islam came to being ruled by a woman).

 

[HarlotMinx]

well, i'm not sure, but i believe the koran was also written for men much like the bible.

regarding the second part of your paragraph: are you saying that those relationships are mentioned in the koran or am i misunderstanding you? if so where. if not my apologies for misunderstanding you.

just curious. i've had this discussion before.

Actually the Qur'an is specifically written to refer to neither sex in particular, and on purpose. The laws apply to both women and men. It's one of the fascinating parts, it's actually meant to be law that governs Islam not just men. And no, the qur'an says nothing about lesbians or gay couples but many people have later used it as justification. A lot of the practices of Islamic people have nothing to do with Islam the religion itself but the local practices of the people pre Islam or due to later Ottoman empire influences. For example, did you know their is nothing in the Qur'an or hadith about full body coverings? It was a Ottoman practice that the muslims picked up. It only says that women and men dress respectably, In Persia this meant full body garb so muslims took the practice up so as to not appear immoral. The only actual text that talks about covering up is in the Hadith which said that Muhammad made his wives wear veils as protection against people who might recognize them and harass them. He did not require this of any woman but his wives.

 

[HarlotMinx]

And before someone posts it, the closest anti homosexual section of the qur'an you can find is the story of Lot and sodom and gomorrah. However this only implies immorality was the crime of Lot's people, it's been implied though that homosexuality in particular by a number of scholars but I kind of question their interpretation. Oh, and just for reference, I'm not muslim... hell I'm just a atheist (I feel that not believing in divinity shouldn't make me ignorant of others religions) who's read the Qur'an and has taken middle eastern history classes so I could be totally wrong here.