Did you cut or harm yourself?

[LadyAura]

Thank you for sharing some of you with us
To me it makes you even more special

It's nice to have a place to come and feel comfortable to share the secret side of me. I have never told anyone until now. Thanks for your acceptance. The sharing is a big part of healing. LadyAura
P.S. Still thinking of you.

 

[Pure]

One last question:

The contributions are impressive. One final question though before putting the thread on 'snooze.'

IF you were a cutter or self-harmer, and are now in bdsm so called 'lifestyle' as a sub or bottom, does cutting or harm to body; or blood or severe pain play a role in your bdsm practices (scenes)? Are there now the same types of self-harm, just inflicted by another? (for example, do you receive cuts from your dom/me?)

Thanks to all.

 

[zanna]

One last question:

The contributions are impressive. One final question though before putting the thread on 'snooze.'

IF you were a cutter or self-harmer, and are now in bdsm so called 'lifestyle' as a sub or bottom, does cutting or harm to body; or blood or severe pain play a role in your bdsm practices (scenes)? Are there now the same types of self-harm, just inflicted by another? (for example, do you receive cuts from your dom/me?)

Thanks to all.

Pure,

It has not taken the place of what i used to do when i was younger. Yes, cutting is one of my favorite things He does, but it is on a different level. The release itself is much the same, but the intent is much different. It comes from a different place all together. Maybe i am simply misleading myself. i am not entirely sure. At this point in my life, i am not sure the two are related, but that could change later.

i don't know if i really answered your question at all, but i tried.

 

[Pure]

Thank you Zanna,

it seems a difficult question, maybe because its answer doesn't fit some 'script' like in the 'secretary' movie.

i hope to hear from others.

J.

 

[Pure]

Found this little piece at a site recommended by Lark S.
Any comment? Yo, Sadists!

"Mutilation" by F R R Mallory, excerpts,

http://www.steel-door.com/Mutilation.html

[...]
[Consider} The child/submissive that mutilates. Takes knives, glass, razors, needles and other things to themselves in a desperate effort to release their fury, rage and pain. They turn these things upon themselves because they believe they are imperfect, unworthy, of less value than the person/s who have damaged them. It is a masochistic demonstration of love and agony. [...]

At this point the child wishes to destroy themselves, wishes to release the pain of loss of hope. Asks "please take me, please love me, please cherish me, please hurt me." They truly believe that through personal damage they please others, they even find momentary relief in the sensations of extreme pain and the letting of blood. If this child falls into the hands of a Sadist they may become one of the fatalities. Please understand that Sadist's are not D/s. A Sadist inflicts pain solely because it pleases them, not to give pleasure to another.

The Dominant that encounters this child will first severely admonish the child for damaging their perfection. Healing this child (who is submissive), is possible. It becomes immediately necessary to redirect the submissives desire to self-mutilate. By making the submissive the property of another (even in purely a mentoring capacity) the Dominant can then tell the submissive that they no longer have permission to injure themselves. It is then critical to begin rebuilding the bridges toward mental health and true inner peace. The violent rage must be released. [...]

It may also be helpful for the submissive to seek and use medication for depression. I will also note (though this will be considered controversial to many) that standard therapy may do more damage here than good, [...] In general many submissives who enter standard therapy treatments emerge with strong divisions, splits in personality and conflict. Primarily this occurs because the therapy tries to cure the submissives continuing desire to submit.

The submissive is being given permission to be heard for the very first time in their life. Offered the opportunity for their voice to become valid. Indicates they are of true value to the Dominant. Along with this therapy, conversation should continue regarding the safe, loving and gentle usage of pain or physical triggers inside the submissive. The submissive will always associate pain with pleasure and arousal, directing this into safe and sane methods is paramount. It allows the submissive to eventually lead a healthy, robust and loving life. Joyful and strong within self.

[end excerpts]

 

[Richard49]

Kinsey, died prematurely of disease associated with impotence and self-mutilation (orchitis, Reisman p. 278)

 

[AnelizeDarkEyes]

Richard,

That source you cited looks like fascinating reading. I am posting it here (with a link to Amazon) for others. If Kinsey did indeed die of Orchitis (which, by the way, is more of a condition, than a disease process) he must have been doing some pretty severe self-mutilation to get it. Orchitis is .... an infection of the testicle. Not normally gotten unless, well, one breaks the skin.

Kinsey: Crimes and Consequences The Red Queen and the Grand Scheme by Judith A. Reisman, Eunice V. Ray (Editor), Alfred Moreschi (Illustrator)

Thanks again for the interesting read.

Back i go into lurk mode...

~anelize

 

[Pure]

Given the popularity of the eugenics movement, there is probably something to what "Dr" Reisman has to say about Kinsey and eugenics. The Jones bio of Kinsey sounds like it might be more balanced, and why exactly are we to care about his testicles? A pre-eminent Christian philosopher cut his entirely off, yet he is still read today (Origen). (The 'dr' btw has no degree related to sexuality or psychology or sociology.)

BUT, she sounds, in general, like a far right Christian or Jewish nut case, who wants to yell about 'gay takeover, marriage breakdown, evils of Playboy, etc.

Witness the following from a sympathizer and from her own site.

From a sympathetic review, at the amazon page on
"Kinsey, Crimes and Consequences." J. Reisman.

Kinsey, Rockefeller and the Nazi doctors, May 13, 2001
Reviewer: KEVIN E. ABRAMS from Canada
Dr. Judith Reisman's new book, Kinsey: Crimes & Consequences; The Red Queen & The Grand Scheme, presents sinister material on the man who seduced America.The 1960s' sexual revolution was based on the most elaborate and carefully crafted scientific fraud of this century, writes author Judith Reisman. Early sexologist Alfred C. Kinsey, with his two famous reports just 50 years ago, seemingly legitimized both profligacy and deviancy, and thus established "the sexual licence he [personally] espoused."

Sexual Behaviour in the Human Male (1948) and its female equivalent (1953) kicked off no-fault divorce, the wife-swapping era, the gay rights movement, classroom sex education, sex "therapy" as a growth industry, explicit imagery in the media and entertainment industry, and an avalanche of pornography and obscenity. Although Kinsey was a sexual revolutionary, Dr. Reisman contends, he was falsely portrayed by Indiana University where he worked, and the Rockefeller Foundation which funded him, "as just a normal American guy/husband/family man who simply 'discovered' that 'really' most American men commonly engaged in sexually aberrant and outlaw behaviour.

Kinsey's 'research' alleged that 10% of American males were homosexual, that all of us were bisexual, that children were sexual from birth and could engage in sexual activity with adults without harm, plus a whole broad spectrum of things taught today in our schools and practised today in courts of law as fact and as true...It was fraud then, it is fraud now and it revolutionized this nation and turned us into Kinsey's [psychological] clones."

http://drjudithreisman.org/index.html
From her own website:

About Dr. Judith ReismanDr. Reisman is president of The Institute for Media Education, author of the U.S. Department of Justice, Juvenile Justice study, Images of Children, Crime and Violence in Playboy, Penthouse and Hustler (1989), Kinsey, Sex and Fraud (Reisman, et al., 1990) and Soft Porn Plays Hardball (1991), Partner Solicitation Language as a Reflection of Male Sexual Orientation (w/Johnson, 1995), and Kinsey, Crimes & Consequences (1998, 2000) and is a news commentator for WorldNetDaily.com.

------
For a critical piece on her,
http://my.ohio.voyager.net/~dionisio/queer/Origins/Reisman.html

or a fuller history and critique:
http://www.jesus21.com/poppydixon/sex/kinsey/judith_reisman.html

for a real hoot, about the vast conspiracy to produce gay kids, and legalize homosexuality, predations, etc., see her on-line work:

"Crafting Gay Children"

http://www.rsvpamerica.org/crafting august 2001.htm

or just have a look at worldnetdaily.com.

 

[AnelizeDarkEyes]

<snip>why exactly are we to care about his testicles?<snip>

I think, dear Pure, Richard was trying to bring up the point, that Kinsey may have offed himself...

// prematurely of disease associated with impotence and self-mutilation//
(italics are mine)

I, being the nurse that I am, wanted to clarify that Orchitis isn't a disease, and went off to check out his source. It looked interesting from strictly "hmmm, check this out" point of view. I don't endorse it's viewpoint, having never read it (only the Amazon plug). Mea culpa.

~anelize

 

[AnelizeDarkEyes]

I really should know better than to tangle with the big dog. *grin*

~a~

 

[Pure]

Hi Anelize,

you said,

I think, dear Pure, Richard was trying to bring up the point, that Kinsey may have offed himself...

// prematurely of disease associated with impotence and self-mutilation//

I'm not sure what Richard meant, though I didn't read him that way.

What Reisman means, has to be taken in light of her claims that Kinsey is a nazi-collaborating pedophile who staged the rapes of children, who wished to abolish marriage and family and allow gay liaisons and 'marriages' and who wanted adultery and bestiality condoned. Given then, that he may have died of 'orchitis', I surmise that Reisman is claiming that the sicko 'pedophile professor' got too deep into self mutilation after his homosexual orgies, and died of the resultant infection.

She's a sort of Laura Schlessinger combined with Rush Limbaugh.

check the three url's I supplied at the end.

I surmise Richard 'bought into' this bs to some degree or wished to inquire into its truth.

Best,
J.

 

[AnelizeDarkEyes]

Thanks for the enlightenment, J.

*backing slowwwwwly away from Reisman*


That'll teach me to go off half-cocked, and check things a little closer before i post them now won't it?

Live and learn.

~anelize

 

[Netzach]

Found this little piece at a site recommended by Lark S.
Any comment? Yo, Sadists!

"Mutilation" by F R R Mallory, excerpts,

http://www.steel-door.com/Mutilation.html


WARNING: rant ahead. Some of her stuff I think is sound advice. Sometimes I think she's completely off the deep end. This is one of those times. If you adore her, and you can't take a total WTF response to her, then don't bother reading this.


[...]
[Consider} The child/submissive that mutilates.

What's that? A 5 yr. o?

A submissive adult's inner child?

Or the walking assumption that all (sexual, oh, naughty word) submissives are children in need of mummydaddy's protection? Double the sexiness of the prospect if we must save them from themselves, the poor things.

Takes knives, glass, razors, needles and other things to themselves in a desperate effort to release their fury, rage and pain. They turn these things upon themselves because they believe they are imperfect, unworthy, of less value than the person/s who have damaged them. It is a masochistic demonstration of love and agony. [...]

Obnoxious buzzing sound again. People cut for a multitude of reasons, the CORE of which is what RS brought up...control. Analagously, the bulimic does not barf simply to be slim, folks, let's be intelligent here. She does it because it's a bodily system she can manipulate and handle and make do what she wants it to, on her terms and her time.

It's not so demurely helpless and submissive when you read the clinical lit.
If you care to and bother to.

At this point the child wishes to destroy themselves, wishes to release the pain of loss of hope. Asks "please take me, please love me, please cherish me, please hurt me." They truly believe that through personal damage they please others, they even find momentary relief in the sensations of extreme pain and the letting of blood. If this child falls into the hands of a Sadist they may become one of the fatalities. Please understand that Sadist's are not D/s. A Sadist inflicts pain solely because it pleases them, not to give pleasure to another.

I don't see a connection between approval seeking and self-harm. If anything, it's a private activity, fraught with guilt, done secretly, talked about reluctantly. Once again, perhaps this has to do with the cutter's desire to control his/her activity. Relief, yes, I agree fully, that it has to do with relief-seeking.

I'm very flattered to be excluded from Mum Steeles world o' D/s. She sounds a lot like my therapist did when I told her I thought I was a sexual Dominant. I may inflict pain to please myself, but contrary to a lot of people's hunches, I have a strong sense of morality, responsibility, and "is this or is this not a BAD IDEA?" and I'm not one to entertain the notion of playing with or emotionally taking control of someone actively into self-harm, and in a bad mental place.

Unlike, if you read on, a proper "Dominant."
Anyone else kinda scared? I mean, I liked it in Secretary, I don't know how I like it in real life.

The Dominant that encounters this child will first severely admonish the child for damaging their perfection.

I'm not a cutter, I'll come clean. I was very close to one in college. Had I attempted this, which trust me, I think her docs and parents also thought of doing (duh) I would have isolated her even further from any sense of acceptance as *she was*. I think she'd had plenty of admonishments from all corners. Why she trusted me is this: I was willing to agree with her when she said "I know I'm not suicidal because of it. " I was able to trust her.

If your idea of a person's "perfection" is unable to accept their perfection as someone who cuts, is not imminently gonna off themselves, and may or may not continue to cut...if you can't *accept* someone's imperfection, then what the hell kind of concern is that? Are you so perfect, because you think you're a Domme? Forbidding someone to cut is as ludicrous as forbidding them to drink if they have a drinking problem. There are some calls you simply don't get to make. There are some choices you simply don't get to choose.

Healing this child (who is submissive), is possible. It becomes immediately necessary to redirect the submissives desire to self-mutilate.

Agreed, it's possible, agreed, that's a strategy for removing a behavior a person *wants to remove.*

By making the submissive the property of another (even in purely a mentoring capacity) the Dominant can then tell the submissive that they no longer have permission to injure themselves. It is then critical to begin rebuilding the bridges toward mental health and true inner peace. The violent rage must be released. [...]

You have to be kidding me. Mentoring and property have nothing to do with one another. There are other frameworks that a person, even a "submissive" will respond to. Again, I warrant that a cutter is trying to control an aspect of his/her life, one more person stepping up to take away autonomy is, IMO, abuse. The only reason I buy it in Secretary, is because Grey is giving Lee a million *other* things to think about, so, yes, it is about replacing behaviors.

But personally, I don't relish the idea of every schmoe who took psych 101 attempting this one at home.

It may also be helpful for the submissive to seek and use medication for depression. I will also note (though this will be considered controversial to many) that standard therapy may do more damage here than good, [...] In general many submissives who enter standard therapy treatments emerge with strong divisions, splits in personality and conflict. Primarily this occurs because the therapy tries to cure the submissives continuing desire to submit.

Depends on the person and where they are at, and who they are getting therapy from. Rather than dissuading *anyone* from therapy, I think the trick is to find a therapist that will accept whatever you need them to accept. I was able to benefit a lot from therapy, even though my therapist had personal issues with SM. I could tell they were *her* issues, not mine. Meds *sans any* therapy is an iffier route, and most psychiatrists will even admit that.

Don't worry honey, all you need is a paxil and a Domme seems to me to be the height of irresponsibility. Not only for the submissive. What if all your nurturing fails, completely, and your partner is an even bigger basket case than when you started your home remedies? My Sadist's sense of selfishness won't tolerate that, hate to think what an empathic Domme would be left with.

Heads are delicate, even the professionals don't get it right all the time, or even most of the time, and your guess is no better than anyone's what's going on there. You have a better chance of success if you ask a lot of questions and listen to the answers than if you go in thinking you can heal, fix, change, or better. This goes for social work, anthropology, psychology, even domination, anything in which you have what you arrogantly might call a "subject." Shut up, get humble, and take notes.

The submissive is being given permission to be heard for the very first time in their life. Offered the opportunity for their voice to become valid. Indicates they are of true value to the Dominant. Along with this therapy, conversation should continue regarding the safe, loving and gentle usage of pain or physical triggers inside the submissive. The submissive will always associate pain with pleasure and arousal, directing this into safe and sane methods is paramount. It allows the submissive to eventually lead a healthy, robust and loving life. Joyful and strong within self.

If they are being given permission to speak, then *listen* to them, for crying out loud. Talk to them. Determine if ANY level of painplay will EVER be a good idea for that individual, based on what you hear, not based on your own arrogance. Be open to the fact that a behavior you yourself do not engage in, while not widely accepted, either, can be the *best and sanest strategy for the individual, as they experience their life and reality* I may not have to cut to get through my day, but if my friend does, and she's not slitting an artery to escape it all, maybe that's what she needs and we have to assume it's the best we can do. That's what I call safe and sane.

Pure, you scare me sometimes. In a good way.

(edited to fix my bold on bold off feature, because Pure will point out the problem. )

 

[Richard49]

Hi Anelize,

you said,

I think, dear Pure, Richard was trying to bring up the point, that Kinsey may have offed himself...

// prematurely of disease associated with impotence and self-mutilation//

I'm not sure what Richard meant, though I didn't read him that way.

What Reisman means, has to be taken in light of her claims that Kinsey is a nazi-collaborating pedophile who staged the rapes of children, who wished to abolish marriage and family and allow gay liaisons and 'marriages' and who wanted adultery and bestiality condoned. Given then, that he may have died of 'orchitis', I surmise that Reisman is claiming that the sicko 'pedophile professor' got too deep into self mutilation after his homosexual orgies, and died of the resultant infection.

She's a sort of Laura Schlessinger combined with Rush Limbaugh.

check the three url's I supplied at the end.

I surmise Richard 'bought into' this bs to some degree or wished to inquire into its truth.

Best,
J.

I am not going to argue with you
I will just say you have missed the whole boat
and are spreading more BS then a farmer

I brought this one little piece of information
which is factual
(you can go to your public library and check the stories published at the time of his death)

I brought it up
because it was the quickest thing I could find on a famous person
who cut self ......

and he is not the only one

Before anyone insults me by calling me a conservative
I will remind people I am card carring Libertarian

When I taught logic
one of the things I taught my students
is that personal attacks on a person has nothing to do with the trurthfulness of there statements/arguments

 

[Richard49]

Thanks for the enlightenment, J.

*backing slowwwwwly away from Reisman*


That'll teach me to go off half-cocked, and check things a little closer before i post them now won't it?

Live and learn.

~anelize

no need for you to back away from anyting or anyone
cause some self proclaimed inteelligual on this board
says that things are a certain way

Read/study
and decide for yourself

 

[Pure]

Hi Richard,

A while ago you posted this alleged fact:

Kinsey, died prematurely of disease associated with impotence and self-mutilation (orchitis, Reisman p. 278)

You further say, in response to information about Reisman, as a gay hater and accuser of Kinsey (as a child molester, pseudo scientist, and homosexual predator).

Richard:
I am not going to argue with you
I will just say you have missed the whole boat
and are spreading more BS then a farmer

I brought this one little piece of information
which is factual
(you can go to your public library and check the stories published at the time of his death)

Given the quality of your source, and the fact that she's been in (losing) lawsuits with the Kinsey foundation, your alleged fact is highly suspect. If only because 'self mutilation' would fit in with all the other 'pervert' and 'rapist' charges she makes. This is not
ad hominem, it's a comment on a crappy source of yours, whose first book on Kinsey, she had to self-publish.

It's not up to me to go to the library to DISprove your statement.

As to your "information", it's a bit like saying,
"Groucho Marx died of pneumonia, a disease associated with AIDS." while both clauses may be true, their juxtaposition amounts to an innuendo.

Your above 'fact', clumsily attempts to link KINSEY's orchitis with 'self mutilation', and since you don't label your quotes, one cant tell who's at fault.

You've given no evidence of Kinsey being linked to self-mutilation.

Further, you even manage to convince yourself of Reisman's innuendo:

I brought it up
because it was the quickest thing I could find on a famous person
who cut self ......

You've produced not a shred of proof Kinsey 'cut' or mutilated himself.

As to your alleged logic background and teaching about how personal attack is unrelated to truth, I simply invite anyone to read your last two postings and see whether: 1) any evidence or fact is contained there; 2) whether anything other than personal reference is present, whether it be your 'card carrying' or my alleged views of myself.

J.

PS. And by the way, your tagline about the jumbo jet is, if not another pseudofact, a serious distortion. And no, I won't go to the library to check your bogus citation.

 

[Richard49]

PS. And by the way, your tagline about the jumbo jet is, if not another pseudofact, a serious distortion. And no, I won't go to the library to check your bogus citation.

What tag line?
Jumbo jet?

What the hell you smoking now

BTW where is your evidence that she has lost lawsuites to the Kinsey Foundation?

 

[Richard49]

Pure

Face it
I do not like you and in most cases do not repect
your beating people up
with your self proclaimed intelligualism
which IMHO is just plan BS

So maybe we should just ignor each other

 

[Pure]

Richard said,
//I do not like you and in most cases do not repect
your beating people up
with your self proclaimed intelligualism
which IMHO is just plan BS.//

Lacking any evidence or good citations for anything you say, it's hardly surprising that personal insult is the only road you travel.

*Where is the evidence that Kinsey was a self-mutilater?*

J.

 

[incubus_dark]

What Reisman means, has to be taken in light of her claims that Kinsey is a nazi-collaborating pedophile who staged the rapes of children, who wished to abolish marriage and family and allow gay liaisons and 'marriages' and who wanted adultery and bestiality condoned. Given then, that he may have died of 'orchitis', I surmise that Reisman is claiming that the sicko 'pedophile professor' got too deep into self mutilation after his homosexual orgies, and died of the resultant infection.

Why do fundamentallists always make these kind of statements as if they're a bad thing?

 

[Pure]

Indeed.
In fact one of Reisman's other criticisms of Kinsey is that he was part of a corrupt perverted movement to institute divorce on demand and to legalize abortion.

 

[incubus_dark]

obviously the man was a fiend, serves him right to die of sore gonnads; NOT

 

[lilredwolph]

is anyone wondering why i backed out of this thread after eading the last page? doubt it

i don't care what is quoted from books, articles or web sites, i lived it and there is nobody or anything that will tell me why i did what i did or how i felt or didn't feel well in the state of cutting


question:
why are the non-cutters fighting about cutters motives?

answer:
because they don't understand it and need to have a reasoning they understand, be it fact or fiction they need it (kinda the same basis of the bible)



have a nice time folks

 

[incubus_dark]

because they don't understand it and need to have a reasoning they understand, be it fact or fiction they need it (kinda the same basis of the bible)

Society at large usually fears, vilifies or both, anything they don't understand. So isn't it better for peeps to have a reasoning they understand, even if a little off the mark, than the alternative? Surely having people try to understand is better than knee jerke negative responses.

 

[Pure]

Hi lilredwolph,

There is self harm in my background. No, I am not sure why it was happening.

you say
i don't care what is quoted from books, articles or web sites, i lived it and there is nobody or anything that will tell me why i did what i did or how i felt or didn't feel well in the state of cutting


question:
why are the non-cutters fighting about cutters motives?

answer:
because they don't understand it and need to have a reasoning they understand, be it fact or fiction they need it (kinda the same basis of the bible)

In part I see your point, in that what a book says should not be used to overrule or invalidate your experience. Or tell you, that since you did X, you are sick and need treatment.

Otoh, many groups, of minorities and perverts, besides helping members communicate and understand things among themselves, keep an eye on what's said about them in the mainstream media, and the 'fringe media'. They try to 'counter' the accusations and inform the public; many gay and lesbian organizations do this. And bdsm organizations. And organizations of those formerly labelled 'mentally ill.'

I take it you object to the material above, about Ms Reisman and Kinsey. I think it's relevant as public info., since she believes Kinsey was a child raping pervert, homosexual predator, and labels him a proponent of sex education and divorce on demand.
Her innuendo--so far as Richard's possible quotation or paraphrase is accurate-- is that this pervert Kinsey, died of infection of the testicles, following his self-mutilation.

While celebrities can add to the understanding of a problem or issue--like Michael Fox is doing with Parkinson's-- I think you can see that simply making K a self-mutilator, on Reisman's word, may not be a good idea.

Indeed, no evidence of his mutilating himself has been shown here. But can't you see why any of us trying to bring light to self mutilation issues-- and explain our experience--might be a little concerned about this story?

I hope you drop in again.

Best,
J.