Discussion: Approaches to Editing a Story

[HawaiiBill]

I think you've hit upon a key difference in editing for professionals and editing for amateurs -- many of the authors here at Lit have no idea what they want or need from an editor.

I think most first-time clients who go to the Volunteer Editors expect a simple proof-reading, rather than a full critique and commentary, and don't really know to ask for more and/or give clear explanations of what they want.

That's why I make an effort to ensure that my clients can follow and undo anything and everything I do to their story easily. If they disgree with my comments or changes I make sure that they can simply click on "reject all changes" to get their masterpiece back to what they started with..

 

[HawaiiBill]

Before I was so rudely interrupted . . .

Hey, I was going to shorten that quote! I've been a professional writer and editor for 45 years but I'm a newbie here and enjoying it. Reading this thread is most helpful.

Phildo sez up there:

"I am looking for my editor to say yes the story is readable.

"I am looking for my editor to say NO, people will not enjoy the story as much and this is why?"

That about covers it.

What I do is adjust my goals for the story with the abilities of the writer determining the distance, windage and size of my efforts. Because they are volunteers, my first goal is to help our writers achieve success. Gently.

It's amazing when a piece crosses the wire that shows very little promise as a writer on the part of the sender. But they have reason to submit their tender thoughts to the process. Sometimes their thoughts can be teased out of them and shaped into a story. Sometimes not.

Today I received a very well written piece from what I take to be a teen-ager. It was eleven pages of these young kids wandering aimlessly around a campus. Two leave and the other two go into the library and, with a quarter page left, engage in some sweet
petting. I tried to explain.

Most of all, I am volunteering to do my bit to make Literotica stories as good as possible. I try to let the writers know that is my only goal, not to unduly influence their stories or change their story's 'voice.'

Good to visit with you!

 

[Angeline]

Today I received a very well written piece from what I take to be a teen-ager. It was eleven pages of these young kids wandering aimlessly around a campus. Two leave and the other two go into the library and, with a quarter page left, engage in some sweet
petting. I tried to explain.

Most of all, I am volunteering to do my bit to make Literotica stories as good as possible. I try to let the writers know that is my only goal, not to unduly influence their stories or change their story's 'voice.'

Good to visit with you!

Bill, yours is a great post. You and Harold have raised a few issues that have bothered me about some Literotica reviewers--official and otherwise--since I've been here.

I became an editor for the same reason I write poems, stories, and read everything put in the vicinity of my eyes: I love communicating with the English language. Playing with words is endlessly fascinating to me. I don't really know why.

I don't expect other people to feel as I do--though it's a pleasant surprise when they do. I'm not here to show anyone that I know more about sentence structure than they do because a) who knows whether I do, and b) more importantly, who cares? Therefore, if I agree to review something--and there are many here who have come to me privately, asked for, and received editorial reviews--I just want to help. If I can give someone suggestions that help improve what they wrote or help them understand some point of grammar or story construction, I'm happy. What's more if you don't take my suggestions I may think you made a mistake, but I won't lose sleep over it.

So I am astonished by how many "reviewers" here become emotionally involved over proving they know more than me or someone else. I've seen people, some of whom are official editors here, take absolute nasty glee in pointing out a typo in an otherwise good sentence. I've seen people rail and rant as if someone else's dangling modifer were a personal assault on them. And when I've asked--because I have--why would you care to beat on someone for not using the right pronoun, the answer is invariably: They asked for a review. It's free. They have to learn not to take it personally.

Um, ok, but if the goal is "helping," shouldn't the message be stated a bit more kindly than Your knowlege of plot line blows, you wouldn't know proper verb tense if it slapped you upside the head, and you smell bad, too!? Well, shouldn't it?

Ok I exaggerate, but you get the idea.

Weird Harold, who I'm sure in his Literotica tenure has seen writing bad enough to curl one's whatever, is unfailingly polite and helpful in the posts I've seen. That is tactful and more likely to make an author change *and* learn than all the ranting in the world.

Anyone else notice this?

 

[HawaiiBill]

Folks sending "treatments" as stories

I'm receiving candidate stories that are really merely outlines or what can be called "treatments." They are something like this:

"She walks in to this place. She orders a drink, knowing that alcohol will get her laid. He enters just as her drink arrives and signals for the bartender to let him buy it. He sits down. They wind up screwing their backs out of joint."

Rather than, say, "Joann noticed a newly opened bar and went in for a quick drink. It was hot and she needed to break.
"Enjoying the air conditioning, she asked the bartender for a drink."
"A stranger walked in the door just as the drink arrived. He signaled that he would like to buy Joann's drink."

[Neither of these is intended to make sense but, rather to demonstrate a common problem I'm getting. I call it the "There's this guy, see" syndrome.

I've been patching these up but yesterday received a long one that is more than I care to fix. Not much of a story, either, but that hasn't stopped me before as I try to help folks as much as I can.

Do you, fellow editors, have a boilerplate rejection slip for stories that aren't stories? Or am I just getting lazy in my old age?

 

[Guest]

Re: Folks sending "treatments" as stories

sneaking quietly out of here while no one is looking......

 

[fifty5]

Re: different approaches

... the following explanation is given in MEU3 (Revised).

"of" for "have, 've." In the spoken language the auxiliary verb 'have' when unstressed (in such phrases as 'could have, might have, would have') is normally pronouced /(IPA schwa)v/ and so, often, is "of." It needed only the keen ears of children and of other partially educated people, to misintepret /(IPA schwa) v/="have" as being "really" one of the ways of saying "of." The erroneous use (first recorded in 1837) is found in all English-speaking countries. Typical examples (in each of which the speech represented is that of a child or of a poorly educated adult)...

(puntuation changed to conform to US MLA style)


It's insulting. ...

Sorry to hark back so far - and this is just my own opinion, so feel free to ignore or disagree - but I'd actually welcome that explanation if I'd of made that error.

I'd welcome it because:
1 - It quotes an external authority (that could be checked) so I'd know this wasn't just prejudice that might be as ill-informed as my version.
2 - It explains how the error originates (and does so clearly and objectively).
3 - It points out that the error has recurred for over a century and a half, giving me consolation that in making it, I'm not alone. And that it doesn't depend on which side of the pond I live.

Granted the last sentence "... Typical ... of a child or of a poorly educated adult..." isn't flattering, but it would be easy to leave that out. The earlier reference to such folk is complimentary: "the keen ears of..."

In fact (other than in irony), I wouldn't make that particular error myself - it's one that grates everytime I meet it - but I know I do make other errors, and such an objective, attributed authority to support an editor's assertion would, as I say, be welcome to me.

Am I wierd?

f5

 

[HawaiiBill]

[No message]

 

[HawaiiBill]

Re: Re: different approaches

Am I wierd?
f5

Not really, f5, at least not so much that any of us would let on about it.

Literotica is a unique forum. As long as I've been hanging out here there remains a mystery about the stunning breadth of language used in the stories.

There is a stark democracy in this broad representation that I, for one, would miss were it taken away. True, as a volunteer editor, it is my goal to make material clear. That clarity, however, extends to writer patois adding flavor to the tale with an indication of class source. See Huck Finn.

A story set in a trailer park needs some loose language. I would of hoped that is clear and generally agreed.

 

[fifty5]

Re: Re: Re: different approaches

There is a stark democracy in this broad representation that I, for one, would miss were it taken away. True, as a volunteer editor, it is my goal to make material clear. That clarity, however, extends to writer patois adding flavor to the tale with an indication of class source. See Huck Finn.

A story set in a trailer park needs some loose language. I would of hoped that is clear and generally agreed.

Right on! (And write on.) But is "I would of hoped" patois, or a typo for "I would've hoped"? Aren't they both trying to render the spoken pronunciation, "wudv"? But isn't it the second version that is the correct gramatical representation of that spoken sound - a short form of "would have"?

Clearly I think it is - and the authority cited by Jan_C seems to me to support that...

Things like "Yeah", or "Gerroff" seem to me to fit your bill, representing phonetically distinct pronunciations from "Yes", or "Get off".

f5 (another self-opinionated old fart)

 

[HawaiiBill]

. . . but I'm from the South!

"Wud've, shud've, cud've" may be Western but in the deep South of America it's usually would "of." The word 'have' has a meaning that escapes me in this use, by the way. Vis a vis 'have' being a synonym of 'has.' What is the synonym for 'have' in the phrase, "She would have licked his ear had he stood still for it." And where does the question mark go in that last sentence?

"No kiddin'," the old fart said, introducing another problem with these regional uses. (Do you put the single apostrophe before or after the comma in the quote? I'll be shocked and disappointed if Jan_Comenius doesn't provide a scholarly treatise on that.)

As for the Western/Southern dichotomy my ear has noticed, I think it is because the West is just a tad more literate in this regard. Your ear may report a different experience and, if so, a dissenting opinion here will be appreciated. Quibbling over these small points keeps my mind off Iraq.

 

[Alex De Kok]

Re: . . . but I'm from the South!

"Wud've, shud've, cud've" may be Western but in the deep South of America it's usually would "of." The word 'have' has a meaning that escapes me in this use, by the way. Vis a vis 'have' being a synonym of 'has.' What is the synonym for 'have' in the phrase, "She would have licked his ear had he stood still for it." And where does the question mark go in that last sentence?

The question mark goes nowhere - it's a statement.

"No kiddin'," the old fart said, introducing another problem with these regional uses. (Do you put the single apostrophe before or after the comma in the quote? I'll be shocked and disappointed if Jan_Comenius doesn't provide a scholarly treatise on that.)

As the apostrophe represents a missing letter - the 'g' in kidding - it should go before the comma.

As for the Western/Southern dichotomy my ear has noticed, I think it is because the West is just a tad more literate in this regard. Your ear may report a different experience and, if so, a dissenting opinion here will be appreciated. Quibbling over these small points keeps my mind off Iraq.

Just my take. Gut reactions, rather than quotes from grammatical treatises.

Alex

 

[fifty5]

Re: . . . but I'm from the South!

"Wud've, shud've, cud've" may be Western but in the deep South of America it's usually would "of." The word 'have' has a meaning that escapes me in this use, by the way.

OK, I'm from the other side of the pond, so I simply don't know about Western/Southern (or Eastern/Northern for that matter) pronunciation. Nevertheless (a sure fire indication I'm going to give my not-so-humble opinion ), if you want to indicate the phonetcs of pronunciation, shouldn't that be: "would ov", or even "wudov"?

If, on the other hand, we are talking grammar (irrespective of pronunciation) tenses of , say, fuck, are:

1 - I fuck (simple present)
2 - I am fucking (present continuous)
3 - I fucked (past imperfect?)
4 - I have fucked (past perfect?)
5 - I would have fucked (past conditional?)

Possible indications of abreviated forms:-
2 - I'm fucking
4 - I've fucked
5 - I would've fucked

Possible phonetic form:
5 - I wudov fukked
but not (for me) "I would of fucked"

because...

"of" indicates posession, or belonging to (as in, "of abreviated forms", "of pronunciation", or, "opinions of mine")

Quibbling over these small points keeps my mind off Iraq.

Well, there you of me - sorry, "there you have me" is what I meant...

Iraq (not to mention Afghanistan, Korea, Israel, or even the UK Conservatives) are - IMHO - beyond coherent comment!

f5

 

[fifty5]

Re: Re: . . . but I'm from the South!

Possible phonetic form:
5 - I wudov fukked

Or perhaps: "Ah wudov fukked"

?

f5

 

[HawaiiBill]

Fukked?

Only one 'k,' please. 'Sukked' would need two.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

If it had quotation marks around it, you can say whatever you want as far as I'm concerned. And if the story's told in first person, I'll accept all sort of things. I try to discourage stories told in dialect, because I think it gets annoyin' when every final 'g' is missin' or something'.

I'm not an official editor (I didn't know that the editor pool was up and working again) but people send me things for editing and I usually accept them or try to work with them. Grammar and spelling errors don't bother me that much. We all make them and no one's immune. I do expect the piece to be proofread before it gets to me though, and it should be in as good a condition as the author can get it in unaided.

The thing that gets my back up is new-author hubris. "Hey, I wrote my first story and it's really hot! I showed it to my friends and they all said it was great. Have a look!" The implication is that this writing business is easy, and that just rankles me.

Even then I rarely criticize grammar and mechanics unless the author shows total unfamiliarity with the basic conventions of written English. Call me elitist, but I do expect a certain degree of competence in using the language. I've seen stuff where the author had no idea of what quotation marks are for, or how to render dialogue, or when to use a comma instead of a period. I wouldn't sit in a concert hall and listen to someone learn to play the violin, and I'm not going to try and teach someone that the paragraph has been invented. Usually if it makes it to Lit, though, the mechanics aren't that bad.

What gives me the most fits as an editor is the submission from someone who has no idea of what a piece of fiction is supposed to be. There are a lot of people who seem to think that their experiences or their daydreams are inherently interesting and worthy of publication if only someone would "polish them up" a little. They're fortunate that the sexual act is a drama in itself with its own beginning, development, climax, and resolution, otherwise all of these would be missing from their stories.

These are the people who just don't get it, and the only thing I can do with them is suggest they do some readin.

---dr.M.

 

[duke4227]

A comment on editing

When I submitted my first story to an editor, I received a phone call asking me if I had read my own story. When I replied that I had not she told me to do that and then resubmit. The number of stupid errors I encountered was actually embarrassing.
When I resubmitted for her perusal it still took over a month to work the kinks out. The story was published thanks to her HONEST assistance. I said honest. I did not say vitriolic.
By the way, writeing is spelled wrong in about three posts by editors. Try to remember that in most instances when using the gerundive case with a word that normally ends in ‘e’ you drop the ‘e’ and ad ‘ing’. The word is spelled ‘writing’. This was not the only error from the editors but it was the most consistent.

OK. I hope this doesn’t come off as a smart ass. My intention is to demonstrate that criticism can be just negative mouthings by an irritated person. Editing is almost defined as being helpful. This means that you should, in my humble opinion, make the effort to lead your writers into the light with reason and compassion, not a .44 magnum.

 

[duke4227]

Computer lit question.

Oh, yeah. I forgot to ask ... What is IMHO?

 

[Seattle Zack]

What gives me the most fits as an editor is the submission from someone who has no idea of what a piece of fiction is supposed to be. There are a lot of people who seem to think that their experiences or their daydreams are inherently interesting and worthy of publication if only someone would "polish them up" a little. They're fortunate that the sexual act is a drama in itself with its own beginning, development, climax, and resolution, otherwise all of these would be missing from their stories.

I've been hesitant to offer my 'official' services as an editor, partially because of the horror stories I read on this very board. I've struggled through a few on a volunteer basis, and I've encountered the exact same thing as the Doc mentions.

The important part of 'erotic fiction' is the fiction part ... the sex is just another dramatic moment, no different from a fistfight or an argument, really, depending on the genre. While I understand that simple descriptions of a sex scene make up the majority of the stories here on Lit, it's difficult to communicate that to someone who has no concept of story.

--Zack

P.S. IMHO= In My Humble Opinion: netspeak for "what I think, goddamnit" usually followed by a strongly worded rant.

 

[HawaiiBill]

Horror stories about editing are exagerated

While my entry in the volunteer editor listing is fairly new, the experience so far is good.
1. Folks are being helped and -- without exception -- they appreciate it.
2. Literotica's massive load of existing and incoming stories is made a little better by editing. I'm not sure how many editors are active but if even a small percentage of stories or poems is improved then that's a good thing.
3. There is the opportunity to get to know some truly interesting people -- in some cases, intimately, as it turns out. Working on language to enhance description of sexual activity can be very stimulating. And, if it isn't fun the editor just isn't doing it correctly. This is volunteer, remember.
4. The editor is in charge. There aren't any rules on going about the process. If a writer's subjects or ability are simply not up to par, beyond help, a sincere e-mail to that effect is as helpful to the writer as anything else that could be done. I've only had one of these, by the way.
5. If you don't enjoy it, you simply disconnect from the volunteer editor listing. Simple as that. The process needs help -- and it's worth doing.

 

[Weird Harold]

The important part of 'erotic fiction' is the fiction part ... the sex is just another dramatic moment, no different from a fistfight or an argument, really, depending on the genre. While I understand that simple descriptions of a sex scene make up the majority of the stories here on Lit, it's difficult to communicate that to someone who has no concept of story.

It's especially difficult to communicate this point to someone who thinks "it's just porn, it doesn't have to be well-written."

I think that getting past the stigma of "it's only porn" is the toughest part of dealing with novice authors when editing at more than a proof-reading for typos level..

 

[snooper]

Re: Computer lit question.

Oh, yeah. I forgot to ask ... What is IMHO?

It's an acronym for In My Humble Opinion.

Most people use it when they are not feeling in the least humble, somewhat similar to "with the greatest respect" meaning "you are talking nonsense".

Related, but not much used here, is IMPO meaning In My Professional Opinion used when talking about whatever topic earns you your daily bread.

 

[duke4227]

Thank you both.

Thanks People. I have been around computers since before the advent of the PC; however, I spend little time in chat rooms. This leaves me somewhat ignorant of the lingo.

 

[snooper]

Re: Thank you both.

Thanks People. I have been around computers since before the advent of the PC

Me too; I started on an IBM 650 in a language called SOAP. I first came across IMHO in telex-speak, like bibi and tks.

bibi & tks )?

PS And complex smileys like my signature above, which means:
8 = wears glasses
- = normal nose
)) = double chin (ie fat)
? = smokes a pipe.

 

[yaspis]

On the tact issue: I must say that I've always considered my role as an editor on Literotica a role of an advisor and a teacher. It is not my job to make the writer feel bad about themselves.
Usually there is no need to be rude, sometimes strickt, but never rude. Editors are here to serve the writers.
If you can't stand the story, do not accept it. (I assume most of the editors have the wit to ask the text e-mailed to them before making their decision.) If you have no time for editing at the moment, turn down all requests you get - but politely. It's not that hard.

 

[HawaiiBill]

Hear, hear . . .

Well said, Yaspis.

My view is that we aren't here so much to serve the writers as we are to 'serve the readers.' That's a small point, however, and every observation on contacts betwen writer and editor is precisely correct. Why should it ever be otherwise?