Do I really have to write for 8th graders?

[Pure]

McKenna said, mabeuse agreeing,

[grade level assessment of prose by automatic methods]
So this great little evaluation tool was created. Now get this, it's based entirely on the number of syllables per word and the number of words per sentence.

It something I've found quite useful. Already mentioned is the fact that most people do not comprehend complicated and/or long sentences. Even my postings here are less readable whenever semicolons are used.

'Grade level' automated evaluation is a good tool that will immediately show the effects of eliminating semicolons, multiple independent clauses and other complications. While the New York Review of Books, for example, is appreciative of complexity, the competence of the average reader is taxed, not so much by length per se, but by levels of embedding, challenging even to seasoned readers who have literary backgrounds, which make extreme demands on attention--found by researchers to be crucial in high-level reading performance expected of university students of years past--and on prior knowledge, especially of literary classics, which are seldom in the armamentarium of the typical reader. * Got it?

*Flesch Kincaid grade level 12.

 

[McKenna]

.

 

[raphy]

which make extreme demands on attention

And which most youngsters don't appear to be able to manage. I'm hearing more and more cases of people with ADD all the time. Now either it's always been this widespread and no one talked about it until recently, or these people just aren't being disciplined enough whilst in school.

When I went to school, if you couldn't pay attention, you got your knuckles rapped with a wooden ruler until you fucking did it. But that's an entirely different rant, I suppose.

 

[whispering_surrender]

And which most youngsters don't appear to be able to manage. I'm hearing more and more cases of people with ADD all the time. Now either it's always been this widespread and no one talked about it until recently, or these people just aren't being disciplined enough whilst in school.

When I went to school, if you couldn't pay attention, you got your knuckles rapped with a wooden ruler until you fucking did it. But that's an entirely different rant, I suppose.

I think in this case, there are the same number of "difficult children" as there always have been. However, back when "we" (30's and over) were kids, that just meant stricter parenting and more creativity to keep children occupied. Now, there is medication that you can use to suppress these children and make Television babysitting possible.

Many, many children who are gifted get labeled as ADHD because it is too much work to keep their brains stimulated and provide them with healthy means to focus their excess mental and physical energies. Providing them with interactive games, reading time with a parent, group colouring book sessions and art, painting, music.....all require the active participation of the child's parent or primary care provider, and can be extremely tiring and taxing at the end of a long day.

The question is, is it worth the extra work to be the parent of the next Einstein, the next Bach, or the next Michaelangelo? I personally think yes, but after being involved in the school system, I'm starting to think that puts me in the minority.

Whisper

 

[Why]

Writing and the use of words?

Confused by feedback?

Been there so many times. I find it hard to understand the various opinions and levels one is supposed to work too or not as the case maybe.

Like Lady Jane I have had feed back that has called my writing style and use of words, ornate and unusual and complex. Sometimes it is praised then rejected, other times it is shite upon then rejected. Best of both worlds I suppose.

Thing is I am not your University grad, in fact no "higher education" at all under my belt, too busy earning a living and raising children.

When I write I just write, put the words down as I think they should be, I use a lot of phrases I have heard all my life spoken round me. Words I have read that have stuck in my brain as sounding right for a character or situation.

My usage is often faulty, my grammer sucks big time, so does my spelling. I know others can do the "machanics" of writing far better than I. Writing anything for me is bloody hard work, not easy. In fact I am often so afraid of the things I write, as to there grammar, pace, the ideas I am trying to put down, I can't bare to read them again for a while.

So when a publisher calls my work ornate and complex I go "What the fuck?" This is just the written ramblings of a working class English housewife!

I honestly write how I speak, with the words I know and the way I think it should be written. Right or wrong? I haven't got a clue. It just feels right.

 

[Black Tulip]

Re: Re: Re: Do I really have to write for 8th graders?

Ignorant Bastard Query: What are those "MS" and grade levels you talk about? I understand the principle behind them, some kind of automation for determining vocabulary and grammar use level in a text, right? So, how doees it work? Where can I find the tools to do this on my own texts? And does it work in other languages than English?

And how would "See Spot run" grade?

/Ice

The MS part was already explained.

If you have installed Windows with multiple languages it works in the other language(s) as well. At least it does for me.

Only funny thing is: the reading grade stuff is not really related to Dutch, so looks a bit weird.


LadyJane,

I consider myself a literate woman, but my first story showed up to be below 3th grade. That made me kind of indignant.

I found out it has more to do with the sentence structure than your choice of words.

 

[SlickTony]

After I read these posts, I went back and grammar-checked several of the stories which had been accepted in Literotica, and was kind of surprised to see that they all tended to rate between 4.6 and 6.7 in the Flesch grade level. (Who the hell are Flesch and Kincaid anyway?)

I myself have received criticism most of my life for using more vocabulary than my proposed readership should be expected to put up with. These scores that I've seen in Grammar Check indicate to me that writing erotica has probably made me a more readable writer. Most of my stuff, BTW, has measured at least 74% in terms of readability and mostly in the 80% range.

But no, I've never tried to write for the 8th grade. I rather like to be forced to go to the dictionary every now and then, and see nothing the matter with sending other people there. As far as romance writers goes, look at Diana Gabaldon, who IMO stands head and shoulders above the rest of the people in her genre; I don't think she writes down to an 8th grade level.

 

[Mhari]

Just to clarify my position on "catering to the lowest common denominator"...

I find it offensive that They (whoever They are - news media, editors, educational designers) think that most people are stupid and must be talked down to. At the same time, I understand the need to be sure you're reaching your widest audience.

However. I am of the opinion that a lot of people aren't stupid. They're just intellectually lazy. People are taught these days that they don't have to think. The media will think for them. It makes life ever so much easier, doesn't it?

I think it's appalling. Why shouldn't we teach our kids (and even other adults) how to think? That it's *okay* to think? I blame high school teachers, myself. Now, before I get raked over the coals for that statement, let me hasten to add that I also highly respect anyone who is willing to teach in primary and/or secondary schools. I sure couldn't do it. But they also have tons of restraints and restrictions placed upon them, so it becomes easier to teach that there's just one right answer. Memorize it and don't try to think beyond it. The problem is...the product is people who may be very smart, but who are unable to think their ways out of paper bags.

Then they come to me. And I and my professorial colleagues throw up our hands every year and exclaim, "Are these kids getting stupider every year??" I have one goal in the classes I teach: To get those kids to shed their intellectual laziness. To learn how to *think*. ) Unless, of course, I'm teaching history, in which case they need to learn the history as well as thinking. ) If they happen to learn how to write a mechanically and grammatically perfect sentence along the way, well, goody. But what I want is for them to leave my classroom confident that they can take information and data and do something with it themselves...and arrive at a supportable conclusion.

Most of them hate my tactics - and me - for about the first six weeks. Then they start to Get It. And they *appreciate* it. Because they realize that what I am, in effect, saying to them is, "You are all smart people. You don't need anyone to do your thinking for you. Including me." I become giddy with delight the first day a student argues with me during class. Because that means it's working. Whee!

This has been a very long way to say: I don't think we should keep pandering to that lowest common denominator. I think it helps keep people's brains weak, their intellect lazy. And in a democracy, that is a very very bad thing.

Me, I count myself fortunate that I had some of the best primary and secondary teachers ever. In a public school system, even. They sure as hell didn't let us sit around not-thinking. I may be smarter than the average bear, but that would do me no good were it not for the way they taught me to use my brain. I am grateful every day for those teachers and their commitment to excellence. And I hate that those very same teachers now have to compromise what they do in the classroom because of this whole "lowest common denominator" thing.

Okay. Time for me to STFU now. Sorry, didn't mean to go on quite so long, but this is a subject near and dear to my heart.

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

Just a few notes:

The MS (Microsoft) Word word-processor has a grammar checker that uses the Flesch-Kincaid grammar/style checker. F/K is best used with non-fiction. However, it can have some use with fiction.

IMHO, this isn't a moral or philosophical question. Rather it's one of marketing, message, knowing your target audience and using common sense. William Buckley's non-fiction political columns are (in)famous for his use of "big" words. On the F/K scale, they'd rank near the top of the chart. His works of fiction, primarily spy novels, would have a much lower grade level.

Faulkner is famous for long sentences. But the first third of "The Sound and The Fury" is on something like a second grade level. That's because his narrator in that section is Benjy, who these days would probably be referred to developmentally challenged.

I use the MS Word spelling/grammar checker all the time. It's imperfect, but so am I. Still it can help you find passive voice, misspellings and errors in grammar/punctuation. It won't find 'em all and it will indicate some that aren't mistakes. It's up to you to set its parameters and check its work. If you set it to automaticaaly correct everything it believes is a mistake, well, that's your mistake.

Rumple

 

[dr_mabeuse]

The day I let an algorithm tell me how to write is the day I stop writing.

As for grammar checker, I say fuck that too, wringing its cyber-hands whenever it comes across a semicolon, urging me to restructure a line. If I want to use passive voice, I'll use it, and if I want to break a rule, I'll damn well break it.

It's good to remember every so often that writing serves different purposes. All MS stuff is business-oriented; it's not designed for use by the creative writer. (Oops. I mean, "It's not designed for the creative writer's use." Is that better?) If I'm writing, say, an instruction manual for using a zipper, I might dumb down my language. But when I write a story, I want to reach and stretch. I want the language to shout and dance and shake its ass in the reader's face. I really don't know how anyone can think MS' s built-in routines can help them do this. You'd might as well let that damned paper-clip be your co-author.

---dr.M.

 

[Black Tulip]

Mhari, let me kiss you.

I love you from the bottom of my heart.
Can we start a school together?
On Lit maybe?


Sweet dr. M.

I agree with you that the author decides what's right or wrong about his writing.

But, as a ferener I use the stupid checker. Not while I am typing though. And yes, sometimes I think I know better. But the program makes me think why I deviate or not. And for me that is valuable.

 

[raphy]

Trust me, MS Word doesn't like cyberpunk at all

99% of Silver has a little green wiggly line underneath it.

I don't care

 

[Quasimodem]

Trust me, MS Word doesn't like cyberpunk at all 99% of Silver has a little green wiggly line underneath it....

WordPerfect is not fond or Sci-Fi, either.
Can't you turn off the Grammar Check, as I do the Grammatik of WP?

I always turn it on for Erotica. I get such a kick out of it suggesting I replace "Bitch" with "female canine," or it tells me that "shit" is an offensive word.

 

[raphy]

WordPerfect is not fond or Sci-Fi, either.
Can't you turn of the Grammar Check, as I do the Grammatik of WP?

Probably, although I find it quitue amusing, actually =)

It doesn't distract me from my writing, certainly.

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

Accepting the default settings of any grammar/spell checker and letting it automatically make all suggested changes is a formula for disaster. At best, the fool things are an aide which can speed up the editing process.

The MS Word version can be customized in many ways. You set it to check what you want checked and NEVER let it make automatic corrections. That way, you decide whether or not to take each suggestion. One of my favorite tabs in the active screen is the one labeled, "Ignore Rule. "

Of course there's alway the option of turning the entire thing off.

Rumple Foreskin

 

[snooper]

Mathematical Rant!

... Why should romance (or erotica) have to cater to the lowest common denominator? ...

On a purely nit-picking level the lowest common denominator of the ages of 6th grade (12) and 8th grade (14) is actually 84!

This frequent misuse of LCD really annoys me. I think you really mean Highest Common Factor which in that case is 2.

And the moral of my rant is: do not use technical terms which you do not understand.

 

[sweetnpetite]

I have ADD. I read very well and tested at the highest level on my college placement test- with no special consideration for my 'condition.'

It's not about discipline. It doensn't matter how many times your knuckles get rapped. It's a far better plan to teach the ADD student good strategies for overcoming their difficulties and playing up their strengths. (for instance, for myself, I pay better attention in meetings if I take notes. Others have a difficult time listening and writing at the same time, so may do better focusing on the speaker and copying a classmates notes after class. Another student may need to ask lots of questions in order to understand the material)

Anyway, as you said, it's a whole other topic. I would just like to say, please let's not stereotype students with ADD or their parents. (PS the problem's always been their, but it hasn't always had a name.)

And which most youngsters don't appear to be able to manage. I'm hearing more and more cases of people with ADD all the time. Now either it's always been this widespread and no one talked about it until recently, or these people just aren't being disciplined enough whilst in school.

When I went to school, if you couldn't pay attention, you got your knuckles rapped with a wooden ruler until you fucking did it. But that's an entirely different rant, I suppose.

 

[sweetnpetite]

I agree with everything you just said.

However, as a writer, if the publisher says we will print your story if you change these three words to something a third grader can understand- do it! (Now that is a gramatically incorrect sentance- but at least I know it) It won't do anybody any good if your story isn't published, lest of all you. If your book is widely successful and goes into a second printing, maybe you can talk them into changing the replacement words back to the original.

Or when you give interviews you can let everybody know what words you really wanted to use and why you think that everybody should know what they mean

Just to clarify my position on "catering to the lowest common denominator"...

I find it offensive that They (whoever They are - news media, editors, educational designers) think that most people are stupid and must be talked down to. At the same time, I understand the need to be sure you're reaching your widest audience.

However. I am of the opinion that a lot of people aren't stupid. They're just intellectually lazy. People are taught these days that they don't have to think. The media will think for them. It makes life ever so much easier, doesn't it?

I think it's appalling. Why shouldn't we teach our kids (and even other adults) how to think? That it's *okay* to think? I blame high school teachers, myself. Now, before I get raked over the coals for that statement, let me hasten to add that I also highly respect anyone who is willing to teach in primary and/or secondary schools. I sure couldn't do it. But they also have tons of restraints and restrictions placed upon them, so it becomes easier to teach that there's just one right answer. Memorize it and don't try to think beyond it. The problem is...the product is people who may be very smart, but who are unable to think their ways out of paper bags.

Then they come to me. And I and my professorial colleagues throw up our hands every year and exclaim, "Are these kids getting stupider every year??" I have one goal in the classes I teach: To get those kids to shed their intellectual laziness. To learn how to *think*. ) Unless, of course, I'm teaching history, in which case they need to learn the history as well as thinking. ) If they happen to learn how to write a mechanically and grammatically perfect sentence along the way, well, goody. But what I want is for them to leave my classroom confident that they can take information and data and do something with it themselves...and arrive at a supportable conclusion.

Most of them hate my tactics - and me - for about the first six weeks. Then they start to Get It. And they *appreciate* it. Because they realize that what I am, in effect, saying to them is, "You are all smart people. You don't need anyone to do your thinking for you. Including me." I become giddy with delight the first day a student argues with me during class. Because that means it's working. Whee!

This has been a very long way to say: I don't think we should keep pandering to that lowest common denominator. I think it helps keep people's brains weak, their intellect lazy. And in a democracy, that is a very very bad thing.

Me, I count myself fortunate that I had some of the best primary and secondary teachers ever. In a public school system, even. They sure as hell didn't let us sit around not-thinking. I may be smarter than the average bear, but that would do me no good were it not for the way they taught me to use my brain. I am grateful every day for those teachers and their commitment to excellence. And I hate that those very same teachers now have to compromise what they do in the classroom because of this whole "lowest common denominator" thing.

Okay. Time for me to STFU now. Sorry, didn't mean to go on quite so long, but this is a subject near and dear to my heart.

 

[Uther_Pendragon]

For that contest, obviously, you have to write for 8th
graders or below. You almost always have to write for
two audiences: the readers, and -- first -- the editors.
(Even on Lit, although Laurel's standards as an editor are
few and specific.)
I generated a multi-post thread on another forum when
someone objected to my use of the word "rictus." Some
posters thought I was sending readers to the dictionary;
some thought, "doesn't everybody know that word?"
My word processor isn't from Seattle, but I'd love to see
somebody copy a few paragraphs from "I and Thou" into the
system and get a grade-level reading for it. That's the
central work of Martin Buber, and is a notoriously
difficult work of theology with a notoriously easy
sentence structure.
I figure that the word choice for my erotica should reflect
my POV character. This creates different levels of
complexity between "Igrayne" and "He Doesn't," to cite what
are probably the extreme examples.

 

[Weird Harold]

But the program makes me think why I deviate or not. And for me that is valuable.

This is really the whole point of the readability statistics and spelling/grammar check facility in text handling programs! They are not and were never intended as the final arbitors of spelling or grammar.

The Fliesh/Kincaid rating system is only a tool for empirical comparisons of blocks of text.

The entire issue of grade level targets for writing can be summed up as "don't make it any more difficult to read than absolutely necessary."

Pure's example of a long and convoluted sentence that ranks as "F/K GL 12" probably ranks somewhat higher than GL 12. That just happens to be the highest rating the readability statistics in MSWord can give.

Somebody asked about "see spot run" and reading ease -- The Dick and Jane reader's are, by intent, below grade level 1 and rate that way by the F/K algorithm. Hardly surprising, really, because the Dick and Jane readers were written and adoptd in part because of the same theories and research that produced the F/K reading assessment tests and the F/K algorithm to rate text.

Readability and Grade levels ratings have nothing to do with content or vocabulary -- except as concerns polysyllabic words and run-on sentences. They deal with the mechanics of reading and the effects on reading comprehension. This is simply an extension of the KISS principle -- when you have a choice, keep it simple.

 

[sweetnpetite]

Keep in mind. Even smart people like a bit of *light reading* now and then. It doens't have to mean that you are enabling the 'dumbing down of the nation' if you go along with using smaller words or whatnot.

Also, has anyone considered that maybe the offending words just didn't seem to fit in with the sentance structure or tone or other elements of the story? Just because they may be words you naturally use doens't make them right for every story

 

[raphy]

I have ADD. I read very well and tested at the highest level on my college placement test- with no special consideration for my 'condition.'

It's not about discipline. It doensn't matter how many times your knuckles get rapped. It's a far better plan to teach the ADD student good strategies for overcoming their difficulties and playing up their strengths. (for instance, for myself, I pay better attention in meetings if I take notes. Others have a difficult time listening and writing at the same time, so may do better focusing on the speaker and copying a classmates notes after class. Another student may need to ask lots of questions in order to understand the material)

Anyway, as you said, it's a whole other topic. I would just like to say, please let's not stereotype students with ADD or their parents. (PS the problem's always been their, but it hasn't always had a name.)

Sorry for the stereotyping, SnP - I think I explained myself badly. What I was trying to say was very similar to what whisper said - Yes, ADD might be very real, but I think that these days, too many parents and teachers are using it as an excuse for kids that don't actually have it. Instead of saying "The kid's bored, let's find a way to stimulate him and maybe teach him how to focus and concentrate", they just say "Oh, he must have ADD, let's medicate him." It's a 'get out' clause and it drives me nuts.

Also, I have to admit, I have a hard time with the concept of someone who can't do something. It's firmly my belief that you can do anything you want to do, including paying attention for a long period of time, if you want to badly enough. The word "can't" is a very defeatist word for me. To me it says "I'm not strong enough to overcome this, so I'm going to let it beat me and say I can't do it."

But, that's a prejudice and one I try not to let show very often (or even affect my actions or thoughts), because I'm well aware that, put simply, it's not a very nice attitude - And I don't like having not-nice attitudes.

Anyway, my apologies for any offence I may have caused you. Different strokes for different folks. More kudos to you for finding a way around your problem, and for beating it. Life's all about challenges. Every one we beat makes us grow as a person.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

I'm very ambivalent when it comes to ADD and DAMP and diseases like that. I think it's hard to tell who's really got a disease and needs special attention, and who is just plain lazy and stupid and pretends to have such a disease to get out of disciplinary work.

It's too bad, because it reflects badly on people who have it and are doing their best to live a normal life, like sweetnpetite. I strive hard to keep an open mind, but it's difficult, because I've seen so many brats flaunting their condition as an excuse to get out of normal discpline in school.

 

[Mhari]

Mhari, let me kiss you.

I love you from the bottom of my heart.
Can we start a school together?
On Lit maybe?

Kisses back for you, BT!


Sure, we can start a school wherever you want! Errr, except maybe not Amsterdam...I hear tell it's cold in them there parts these days!

 

[Black Tulip]

excercise in mature behavior

Mhari

I am a very restraint adult.
I am a very restraint adult.
I am a very restraint adult.
I am a very restraint adult.
I am a very restraint adult.


Arghhhhhh.



@#$%^&