Do you not want feedback?

[8letters]

Not all criticism is constructive. And amateur writers are prone to give criticism that isn't constructive when they assume it is because a little bit of knowledge can be quite destructive. There's a fair amount of that novice guru "constructive," yet not really constructive, advice given on this board. If writers come here and ask for it, that's one thing. When novice gurus go out into the story file and impose it on stories willy-nilly when it wasn't requested, that's quite another thing.

Where your premise goes off the rails is on two points, first, assuming all of the writing criticism you (the generic "you") would give is constructive just because you've written a couple of stories yourself and read some author's books on writing, and second, that everyone posting stories to Literotica is salivating to hear your "constructive" criticism simply because they posted stories here.

Come on. It doesn't take a lot of writing skill to recognize misspelled words, grammar errors and structural problems in a story.

T&C is the one category that sticks out in my mind for authors coming to this forum to beg for comments, to get some tangible proof that somebody out there has read their story. Now, Emirus did find a T&C author who's not interested in getting any feedback, but I'd guess that many other T&C authors would be thrilled if Emirus provided them similar feedback.

 

[KeithD]

You have to be an arrogant sad sack wanting your writing "superiority" to be seen and recognized to pursue an author here without invitation to point out spelling, grammar, and even structural errors in a Literotica story.

I've already exempted those who come to this feedback board to ask for the help. Even then, it might be nice for you to actually have some training in giving guidance on someone else's writing to avoid doing more damage than the help you give. So what is your problem with that? Why are you pushing this? Why would anyone have to "instruct" others who write stories here who haven't asked for instruction? Why couldn't they just mind their own business?

In your own case, Kindofhere has skillfully pointed to your personal shortfall in giving constructive writing critique. That's not just spelling and grammar, but you don't stop there in your critiques. I don't know if you go to the story file to be a vigilante, but the OP of this thread did. Let's not go moving the goal posts provided in the OP.

 

[ElectricBlue]

T&C is the one category that sticks out in my mind for authors coming to this forum to beg for comments, to get some tangible proof that somebody out there has read their story.

Just out of curiosity, what is this statement based on?

I don't think I've noticed a skew towards any particular category writer wandering into the Feedback Forum saying, "Hey guys, check out my story, will ya?" I've never thought, "Oh no, not another bloody T&C writer, all needy and wanting attention." Did I miss something?

"...beg for comments ... tangible proof that someone has read their story..." - what's that language all about? I mean, I get it that you might not like cross-dressing or trans-gender ghosts, and that's fine, but that language? Sounds a bit, "my kink's better than your kink," to me.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Come on. It doesn't take a lot of writing skill to recognize misspelled words, grammar errors and structural problems in a story.

In my experience, many readers can't tell the difference between "misspelled"/"grammar error" and "story written in UK or Australian English", which can result in some rather irritatingly misguided feedback.

 

[ElectricBlue]

In my experience, many readers can't tell the difference between "misspelled"/"grammar error" and "story written in UK or Australian English", which can result in some rather irritatingly misguided feedback.

Have you actually had stupid-back feedback on your Oz, Bramble? I've not been pinged once in 57 stories - although some peanut found my only Bill Gates' it's. Damn you, grammar check that I didn't turn on!

 

[LightningSeed]

I keep wanting to post a GIF of Michael Jackson eating popcorn but I can’t figure out how, so please just imagine it.

 

[SimonDoom]

You have to be an arrogant sad sack wanting your writing "superiority" to be seen and recognized to pursue an author here without invitation to point out spelling, grammar, and even structural errors in a Literotica story.

I've already exempted those who come to this feedback board to ask for the help. Even then, it might be nice for you to actually have some training in giving guidance on someone else's writing to avoid doing more damage than the help you give. So what is your problem with that? Why are you pushing this? Why would anyone have to "instruct" others who write stories here who haven't asked for instruction? Why couldn't they just mind their own business?

In your own case, Kindofhere has skillfully pointed to your personal shortfall in giving constructive writing critique. That's not just spelling and grammar, but you don't stop there in your critiques. I don't know if you go to the story file to be a vigilante, but the OP of this thread did. Let's not go moving the goal posts provided in the OP.

I have a different take on this. The site provides many tools for offering feedback. So use them. This site provides an opportunity not just to become a better writer, if one wants to, but also a better critic.

I would rather see people offer more feedback than less, and err on the side of venturing comments that aren't wanted than to feel reticent about offering any. The author always has the option of ignoring advice given. That's easy enough to do.

I don't think anyone should feel hesitant on this site to offer feedback because one lacks the "credentials" to do so. I've gotten nuggets of helpful observations from many readers, some of whom I can tell have no professional editing experience.

The two guidelines for feedback, in my mind, are (1) try to be courteous, even if one is critical, and (2) try to help the author write a better version of the author's story than rewrite it as one's own.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Have you actually had stupid-back feedback on your Oz, Bramble? I've not been pinged once in 57 stories - although some peanut found my only Bill Gates' it's. Damn you, grammar check that I didn't turn on!

I haven't had trouble with my own stories that I can recall, but I've seen others complain about being taken to task for UK English. I suspect some categories might be worse than others for that sort of thing.

(Some of my beta readers have flagged Australian stuff when they weren't sure whether it was an error or a regional difference, but that's not the same as assuming an error.)

I do recall being "corrected" on formatting speech, by a reader who didn't understand the convention for multi-paragraph quotes.

 

[Emirus]

The two guidelines for feedback, in my mind, are (1) try to be courteous, even if one is critical, and (2) try to help the author write a better version of the author's story than rewrite it as one's own.

I offered up my first two stories for feedback in this category, thinking I was the greatest writer since God did the Ten Commandments (lol), and really got ripped. Although I really didn’t like some of the comments I took them all into consideration because they were from more experienced writers than myself.

Although I’ve been reading Lit stories for about five years I only registered earlier this year so I could comment occasionally on some of the stories I’d read and I wanted to be able to put my name to my comments because I didn’t wish them to be anonymous. It was only in April that I decided to dive in at the deep end and submit a story. Since then I’ve been very fortunate to have received advice from five more experienced and far better writers than I will ever be, one of whom I correspond with via email very frequently, the majority of emails having nothing to do with writing. The five authors have between them several hundred H’s so I think it’s fair to say their stories are well appreciated.

The advice I try to pass on is, in the main, advice from the five that I feel has been of benefit to me. My own advice, which is minimal, is based on me being a reader not a writer. I’ve never left a comment saying this is either the greatest story I’ve ever read or the opposite. I don’t think anyone would be able to produce a comment of mine that has been offensive to a writer and I’ve received several emails from writers thanking me for my comments on their stories. For myself I welcome any advice, provided it’s constructive, even if it’s not what I might want to hear.

 

[KeithD]

I have a different take on this. The site provides many tools for offering feedback. So use them. This site provides an opportunity not just to become a better writer, if one wants to, but also a better critic.

I would rather see people offer more feedback than less, and err on the side of venturing comments that aren't wanted than to feel reticent about offering any. The author always has the option of ignoring advice given. That's easy enough to do.

I don't think anyone should feel hesitant on this site to offer feedback because one lacks the "credentials" to do so. I've gotten nuggets of helpful observations from many readers, some of whom I can tell have no professional editing experience.

The two guidelines for feedback, in my mind, are (1) try to be courteous, even if one is critical, and (2) try to help the author write a better version of the author's story than rewrite it as one's own.

I think this view is myopic. You're not seeing this from the perspective of the writer who just wants to share stories here and doesn't want some stranger telling them that they can only be here to develop their writing and to want writing criticism of their work. The Web site does what it can in enabling a writer just to share stories without the assumption they're here to "learn" how to write. You are coming across as blind and uncaring to the right given by the Web site just to share stories as some of the others posting to this thread--and supporting the OP who established this thread by complaining about a writer who did everything he/she could do on Literotica to signal that she/he didn't post a story here for some stranger to tell him/her how to write. As if the OP had some sort of God-given right to push his writing views on the writer.

This isn't a critique site. The Web site gives writers tools to avoid this as much as it possibly can.

I totally reject anyone's notion here that a writer should have to swallow anyone else's need to be a vigilante self-proclaimed writing guru.

The Web site provides venues for writers seeking writing advice on their stories--either by asking for it on this feedback thread or directly in a note on the story. Barring that, those who just must be a vigilante, nonsolicited instructor are more concerned with tooting their own horns and claiming superiority than in helping someone who hasn't asked to be helped.

 

[Emirus]

The story itself was short and an enjoyable read.

I was going to leave a constructive comment because I’d received some constructive help when I first published a story.

It seems strange to me that voting is on but comments and communication are off.

Every story has...a decent rating and I’m sure he’d like to read praise from those who read and follow his stories.

Just a reminder what was the intent of my original post. It seems to have been lost in the mire.

 

[KeithD]

More directly--and without the unmarked excerpting--from the OP:

"The story itself was short and an enjoyable read although nowhere a 5️ Lots of spelling mistakes, punctuation errors, and sentence construction. I was going to leave a constructive comment because I’d received some constructive help when I first published a story. I thought it was his first story but when I looked him up it was his fourth. In ten years. I thought it was in the wrong category because it wasn’t clear until getting towards the end that it was a ts and her boyfriend. I skimmed through his other three stories which were cross dressing and I don’t find a man dressing up as woman interesting."

Let's not try moving the goalposts.

 

[KeithD]

Herewith preserving the original thread post, verbatim as originally given, lest it should conveniently disappear or be further toyed with.

Randomly looking through the recent T&C stories I saw one that referred to an Indy Girl. Being a man who has often lusted after the grid girls at Indy and other race circuits around the world I thought, “I’ll have a read of that” with a picture of the lady already in my mind.

The story itself was short and an enjoyable read although nowhere a 5️ Lots of spelling mistakes, punctuation errors, and sentence construction. I was going to leave a constructive comment because I’d received some constructive help when I first published a story. I thought it was his first story but when I looked him up it was his fourth. In ten years. I thought it was in the wrong category because it wasn’t clear until getting towards the end that it was a ts and her boyfriend. I skimmed through his other three stories which were cross dressing and I don’t find a man dressing up as woman interesting.

I thought I’d leave a helpful comment but, although voting was allowed, comments were switched off. I’ll send him an email instead. But he won’t accept emails. I’ll try a pm. But he won’t accept pm’s.

It seems strange to me that voting is on but comments and communication are off. Every story has, despite the errors, a decent rating and I’m sure he’d like to read praise from those who read and follow his stories.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I haven't had trouble with my own stories that I can recall, but I've seen others complain about being taken to task for UK English. I suspect some categories might be worse than others for that sort of thing.

That confirms my experience - most people can recognise correct English, regardless if it's American, English or Australian. Canadians are different coz they're half French, which complicates matters .

I generally find, when someone wanders in and complains from the top of their high horse, "Fucking Americans, don't they know they're not the only English speakers on the planet?" that the problem usually isn't cultural, it's technical, and the moaner actually should pay attention.

Having been here four years now, I'm inclined, though, to agree with KeithD that the self-appointed style police and grammar Nazis, who give "advice" when it's not been asked for, are more annoying than not - and generally wrong themselves anyway. The anons are the worst, obviously, because you can't say, "Right, you prick, let's go see what your work is like, show me your genius."

We see it on the Feedback Forum semi-regularly, sometimes spectacularly - someone new rampages in with opinions couched as critique and all the subtlety of a bag of bricks, the curious go check out their body of work, "Oops, that's a bit awkward." That's when LightningSeed can go buy a ticket, because the entertainment value can be considerable (and all part of the service ).

In my experience here, very good stories get lots of comments, as do the very bad. There's a truck-load of capable, competent work gliding down the Literway with what seems like no attention, but for those it's more a case of, "No news is good news" - you ain't brilliant yet, but at least you can write.

 

[LightningSeed]

...That's when LightningSeed can go buy a ticket, because the entertainment value can be considerable (and all part of the service ).

Thanks for the shout-out EB. As a noob, you are one of my Lit idols. This has been a great convo. As long as it’s all in the interest of even more hot writing I’m all-in!

 

[8letters]

Just out of curiosity, what is this statement based on?

My recollection of posts to this forum over a long period of time. I could easily be wrong.

"...beg for comments ... tangible proof that someone has read their story..." - what's that language all about? I mean, I get it that you might not like cross-dressing or trans-gender ghosts, and that's fine, but that language? Sounds a bit, "my kink's better than your kink," to me.

My impression is that multiple T&C authors have brought up that their stories get few comments. That does imply "my kink gets more comments than your kink", but that doesn't imply "my kink's better than your kink", at least to me.

 

[ElectricBlue]

My recollection of posts to this forum over a long period of time. I could easily be wrong...

My impression is that multiple T&C authors have brought up that their stories get few comments. That does imply "my kink gets more comments than your kink", but that doesn't imply "my kink's better than your kink", at least to me.

Okay, ta .

 

[8letters]

I would rather see people offer more feedback than less, and err on the side of venturing comments that aren't wanted than to feel reticent about offering any. The author always has the option of ignoring advice given. That's easy enough to do.

I don't think anyone should feel hesitant on this site to offer feedback because one lacks the "credentials" to do so. I've gotten nuggets of helpful observations from many readers, some of whom I can tell have no professional editing experience.

I totally agree. Even comments I disagree with tell me the story moved the person enough to take the time to write something .

The two guidelines for feedback, in my mind, are (1) try to be courteous, even if one is critical, and (2) try to help the author write a better version of the author's story than rewrite it as one's own.

I can see why you say #2, at one point in this thread I agreed with #2, but I'm coming back to thinking you should tell the author what you think would improve the story even it that means telling him/her to rewrite the story.

I recently got a comment:

Very Good,But....
Soon after starting,I realized that I'd read this story awhile back. The sex is hot though so I read it again. Three things bother me a little bit. 1) It's too long.4 pages,Max would have been enough,especially if you 2)eliminated some of the psychological stuff. After awhile the two of them seemed a tad coo coo what with all the intellectual and educational aspects of their relationship being talked about to death. 3)When the story ended,it left me with a little bit of an icky feeling,what with it being mentioned by Todd that the sex was wrong,and toward the end with the towel taking a real beating with the description of all the bodily fluids all over the place. ~ To sum it up,could have been better if shorter with a lot less serious conversation.

This is a comment on a story that has done really, really well. I don't think the commenter expects me to re-write the story, cutting it down to four pages. But I think almost all criticism is about what the author should do on their next story, and to me the commenter is saying that he'd prefer I write shorter stories that don't discuss bodily fluids. I'd agree that I should work on writing at least an occasional 4-page story.

Another example: I have one brother-sister story where the brother and sister don't wind up together. Instead, the sister helps bring the brother back together with his girlfriend. That story has gotten several comments that they thought the story would be better if the brother and sister had wound up together. I even got a request to publish a new version of the story where the brother and sister stay together. I'm not going to change the story or publish a new version of it, but it does tell me how much I/T readers want the family members to commit long-term to each other even when it's not realistic for them to do so.

 

[LightningSeed]

I totally agree. Even comments I disagree with tell me the story moved the person enough to take the time to write something.

It’s so nice to get comments. It’s disappointing so many readers don’t leave a score, something that would take two seconds.
But watcha gonna do.

 

[Emirus]

It’s so nice to get comments. It’s disappointing so many readers don’t leave a score, something that would take two seconds.
But watcha gonna do.

I would agree with every word. The reader has got to the end, they’ve formed an opinion, so please take the two seconds necessary to hit a star button. I can understand readers not wanting to take the time to write a comment. The comments I would most value are not the extremes of ”the greatest story ever written” or “what a load of horse dung” but the ones saying “These are the reasons why I gave it a 3.”

I also echo what 8letters said “Even comments I disagree with tell me the story moved the person enough to take the time to write something.”

I received an email not long ago from a well established author, following on from an initial not very nice email (they actually deleted my comment) saying that they’d seen all the complimentary remarks I’d left on other stories. That in hindsight they were wrong to become angry because I thought that particular story was not up to their normal high standard. I posted a comment for another writer saying that, although I enjoyed the story, the ending seemed to be a bit rushed. I subsequently received an email saying they’d read comments I’d made on other stories by them and asking if I would proof read, critique and give suggestions on future stories before submission. These writers have, between them, about 150 red H’s so you can imagine how pleased I was to receive those emails.

My comments are always based on me being a reader not a writer.