Does shame exist?

[s'lara]

Isn't shame about how one is viewed in the eyes of others or how one views oneself in comparison against the majority rule?

Ex: Johnny, who lives in a poor neighborhood, goes to dinner at Susie Rich Girl's parents home. When asked at the dinner table (laden with finery) where he lives, the shame he feels about his less than stellar abode courses through him and he quickly changes the subject.

Do i have this wrong?

Shame is so very personal. i don't necessarily feel shame if my face is dirty, but if i am made to do something where i know others will see my humiliation, that shame comes up quick and fast. What a terrible/delicious feeling no?

lara

 

[Bachlum Chaam]

My lady Catalina as usual makes my efforts look paltry congratulations it sums it up perfectly

apologies for the hijack my lady

 

[catalina_francisco]

Isn't shame about how one is viewed in the eyes of others or how one views oneself in comparison against the majority rule?

Ex: Johnny, who lives in a poor neighborhood, goes to dinner at Susie Rich Girl's parents home. When asked at the dinner table (laden with finery) where he lives, the shame he feels about his less than stellar abode courses through him and he quickly changes the subject.

Do i have this wrong?

Shame is so very personal. i don't necessarily feel shame if my face is dirty, but if i am made to do something where i know others will see my humiliation, that shame comes up quick and fast. What a terrible/delicious feeling no?

lara

Yes, I think humiliation is a delicious feeling in the right context, but I am not sure I can equate it with shame in the way I understand it. I think feeling uncomfortable over social status in a set situation is not nice and embarrassing, but I'm not sure I would see it as shame though I acknowledge people have used the word in that way. My definition seems to favour shame more as an emotion which will not leave you once you leave the situationwhich caused it, or leave you very easily if at all, nor does it necessarily have to have an audience or the circumstances be anyone elses knowledge to exist. Still fascinates me to explore.

C

 

[catalina_francisco]

My lady Catalina as usual makes my efforts look paltry congratulations it sums it up perfectly

apologies for the hijack my lady

No apologies necessary. Your words are better at summing up in a more concise manner than mine, and at this time of the night, I am afraid what is in my head still has not formulated into written word. I will PM you and answer your other question tomorrow when I am more alert.

C

 

[Ebonyfire]

I don't think 'shame' has been well defined. It differs from guilt. But given the ridicule of googling and actually looking at reference material, I'm not going hunting right now.

J.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Ebony ... rofl!

 

[Pure]

For a start:

Shame: the painful feeling arising from the consciousness of something dishonorable, improper, ridiculous,. etc/ done by oneself or another.

Shame and Humiliation imply painful feeling caused by lowering of ones' pride or self repect. Shameis a painful feeling causes by the consciousness or expose of unworthy or indecent conduct or circumstance: one feels shame at being caugh in a lie.

Humilation is mortification or chagrin at being humbled in the estimation of others: being ignored gives one a sense of humiliation.

Random House , American College Dictionary.

====
I think lara has captured it pretty well.

I think the emphasis on pride is key, for that means shame is possible from an early age, say 2, when pride comes to exist. One is _proud_ of tying one's shoes, or keeping one's pants dry. Before there is true guilt. One might feel ashamed of having wet him/herself; one's pride is affected, as is one's place as a respected member of the famility/classroom/ community.

Being caught with one's hand in the cookie jar more relates to guilt, and for an adult, there's guilt over betraying a trust; one's partner finds out you've been cheating on them. To get shame in this case, think of "The Scarlet Letter"-- in Puritan society, wearing the letter "A" (for adultery) on one's clothing publically.

You haven't just broken a rule, you've lost membership in the group of decent people who have basic respect for each other, and are proud to be of the group in question. [As Catalina said:] So it's gonna be hard to get back, if ever. (Hence suicide, or leaving permanently).

Is Bosnia, the raped women (so, because of the war) feel shame, since through no fault of their own, an essential requirement for pride --and others' respect--has been taken away.

J.

 

[Netzach]

I think shame is alive and well. I really do. I think that reducing all forms of shame to a kind of nagging embarassment that a person can get past with the help of the right Dom or therapist is not realistic.

While we might not chalk people with scarlet letters and while we might, as a society insist that it's really *okay* to be gay or poor...talk to any person in any marginalized group and you are probably going to hear a narrative of self-hatred or self-hatred *at* one's self hatred. You are going to deal with a person who has heard that they are NOT "ok" at some very fundamental levels. This is more than "gee I feel naughty when I masturbate", it's fundamental and debilitating.

 

[James G 5]

I have to agree with s'lara
It's perceptional
depends on the person and the situation
But yes, it exists

 

[rosco rathbone]

. Those that identify as sadists or dom/mes would feel more as our culture seems to see those activities as being 'evil and dangerous' while their compliments are perhaps sick or horribly victimized.

bingo

 

[cellis]

We are a shame based society living within the boundaries of shamebased institutions and industries.

About 15 years ago I wrote a paper on the consequences of living in a shame based society. It is who we are as a people. We are thought to feel shame from birth and the institutions that we are exposed to continue to reinforce shame in us and industry perpetrates this even farther.

If we are very very lucky we can work through some of these issues and move forward... if not we continue as adults to live shame based lives and instill a sense of shame in our children...

Oh I want everyone to know that these are my thoughts and I think lara was really on the money about shame and humiliation.

 

[Karen Kraft]

To me shame is often simplified and a very much deeper emotion than embarrassment which can result from being aware of something pertaining to your character no-one else is, or may ever be, aware of. I equate it with feeling mortified to the point of possibly encountering extreme difficulty in facing anyone, even without their knowledge of your dilemma.

To me people can suffer embarassment often, and just as quickly recover from it, though some may find it more difficult and longer lasting depending on their make up. Shame on the other hand IMO tends to be debilitating in it's effects, damaging the self image a person has of themselves, and remaining with them for a long time if not forever.

I know many speak of shame as something they have experienced, but I question if indeed it is shame in all cases or just an extremely embarrassing situation they would have preferred to not endured. It is common for some submissives/slaves to express feeling shame over things their dominant requires of them...but is it shame deep down? Is it what they truly feel or more a reaction out of fear of what others may think?

For instance, a sub who says they would feel shame at being expected to spend an evening completely naked and available in the company of their dominant and friends....Would it still be shame, or rather embarassment, if they found they felt okay as soon as they aclimatised to the situation, or saw approval in the eyes of their dominant or others? I think this is what the person who raised the subject in conversation was alluding to. He felt times had changed to a point it was no longer possible for anyone to experience true shame, the type that exists over matters no-one else but the person experiencing the shame knows of. I am still processing it myself.

C

Shame is a personal feeling which often finds its energy from social norms. Different social settings, different mechanisms working for shame. Guilt is more the pastime those who enjoy examining their lives in terms of some perceived duality of good and evil. Shame operates just fine in a vacuum, while guilt needs a benchmark by which it can be internally measured. Or so it seems to me.

Some time ago I was drugged and sexually assaulted by some guys. I felt no guilt whatsoever, but a whole lot of shame. The psychologist told me that working through feelings of shame is much easier than working through feelings of guilt. And so it was for me.

 

[Pure]

Cellis said,


We are a shame based society living within the boundaries of shamebased institutions and industries.

About 15 years ago I wrote a paper on the consequences of living in a shame based society. It is who we are as a people. We are thought to feel shame from birth and the institutions that we are exposed to continue to reinforce shame in us and industry perpetrates this even farther.

If we are very very lucky we can work through some of these issues and move forward... if not we continue as adults to live shame based lives and instill a sense of shame in our children...

Sorry Cellis, with all due respect, I just don't see it. Can you give some reasons or evidence for what you say.

This is a society with adulterers, and moms who fuck daughter's boyfriend are on the Springer show; sex abuse victims like the former Miss America are on the better talk shows; utterly shameless corporate execs (Enron, etc.), presidents whose mistakes are never admitted (Reagan, "mistakes were made"; Clinton, "I did not have sex with that woman"), where the president's fellatrix has been on TV, made over, marketing a new line of purses.

You see the current most notable criminal on TV, Jay Handel of British Columbia, Canada, who killed 6 kids to spite his wife is trying very hard to seem depressed, but also glad he did it. I quote todays paper:


FATHER NOT ASHAMED OF KILLING 6 CHILDREN

Campbell River B.C. The man who admits strangling and shooting his six children in March 2002, say yesterday he's sorry they are dead, but feels no shame. Jan Handel 46 testified, "God has not seen it necessary that I carrry shame with my burden. I am sorry that my children are dead."

=====

The president of the NY stock exchange took an exorbitant salary set by buddies, he appointed to the board. Indeed, it could be said that these folks do not even feel 'embarrassed' by what happens.

Can you think of any doer of evil or 'fuck up' you've seen on TV who's seemed ashamed? In racking my brain. I can remember the repentance scenes of Jimmy Bakker and Tammy. Lots of tears, and feeling sorry for themselves. Imo, no shame.

I suppose really poor people do feel shame, I remember reading about a town in Appalachia that was to be used for a re-newed Beverly Hillbillies, felt rather embarrassed, and I think, withdrew???

The saying "all publicity is good publicity" seems quite apt and believed in. 'Bad publicity' is often given 'spin' so that the perpetrator becomes a victim, but a proud one, not a shamed one.

In Japan, by contrast, you do see executive resignations that are not forced, and even suicides.

Well, those are my bits of evidence. I'm really curious about yours.

Best,

J.

 

[cellis]

Cellis said,


We are a shame based society living within the boundaries of shamebased institutions and industries.

About 15 years ago I wrote a paper on the consequences of living in a shame based society. It is who we are as a people. We are thought to feel shame from birth and the institutions that we are exposed to continue to reinforce shame in us and industry perpetrates this even farther.

If we are very very lucky we can work through some of these issues and move forward... if not we continue as adults to live shame based lives and instill a sense of shame in our children...

Sorry Cellis, with all due respect, I just don't see it. Can you give some reasons or evidence for what you say.

This is a society with adulterers, and moms who fuck daughter's boyfriend are on the Springer show; sex abuse victims like the former Miss America are on the better talk shows; utterly shameless corporate execs (Enron, etc.), presidents whose mistakes are never admitted (Reagan, "mistakes were made"; Clinton, "I did not have sex with that woman"), where the president's fellatrix has been on TV, made over, marketing a new line of purses.

You see the current most notable criminal on TV, Jay Handel of British Columbia, Canada, who killed 6 kids to spite his wife is trying very hard to seem depressed, but also glad he did it. I quote todays paper:


FATHER NOT ASHAMED OF KILLING 6 CHILDREN

Campbell River B.C. The man who admits strangling and shooting his six children in March 2002, say yesterday he's sorry they are dead, but feels no shame. Jan Handel 46 testified, "God has not seen it necessary that I carrry shame with my burden. I am sorry that my children are dead."

=====

The president of the NY stock exchange took an exorbitant salary set by buddies, he appointed to the board. Indeed, it could be said that these folks do not even feel 'embarrassed' by what happens.

Can you think of any doer of evil or 'fuck up' you've seen on TV who's seemed ashamed? In racking my brain. I can remember the repentance scenes of Jimmy Bakker and Tammy. Lots of tears, and feeling sorry for themselves. Imo, no shame.

I suppose really poor people do feel shame, I remember reading about a town in Appalachia that was to be used for a re-newed Beverly Hillbillies, felt rather embarrassed, and I think, withdrew???

The saying "all publicity is good publicity" seems quite apt and believed in. 'Bad publicity' is often given 'spin' so that the perpetrator becomes a victim, but a proud one, not a shamed one.

In Japan, by contrast, you do see executive resignations that are not forced, and even suicides.

Well, those are my bits of evidence. I'm really curious about yours.

Best,

J.

Sorry Pure, but I think that you are confusing guilt with shame. And I am not saying that crazy people don't exist in this society. Some people's wiring in the brain in just a little off...

When a father of 6 says he feels no shame over killing his children, he is probably right. He is probably not capable of feeling shame at that time... (Having worked in the mental health field for many years, I would assume there were mitigating factors such as some sort of mental illness. I do not mean that this is an excuse for such behavior only an explanation of the situation.)

I think shame is a personal feeling, deeply ingrained in us all from our parents. Now I am not saying there are not some people who don't operate from a base of shame... It has been my life's experiences that many people are shame based.

I do think that some examples you cited are exactly dealing with shame... Clinton for example... is a classic shame based character... He lies to cover his shame at his behavior... Because he is frightened, doesn't want the whole world to know he was diddling with Monica and because he is ashamed of himself... he lies...

Regan on the other hand in later life and towards the end of last term of office was probably already aflicted with his illness and as for shame... who knows... He was a politican... they play a game and perpetuate shame of the rest of us... the lie to our face and tell us it is the truth and shame on us if we don't believe them... so perhaps he did not feel shame, he was only perpetrator of shame...

As for the executives feeling shame... who knows they were consumed by greed... and perhaps that overpowers the need to feel shame... I guess you could ask yourself how many nights Enron executives laid awake worrying about all the people who lost their lives savings in just that one debacle... Did they feel shame at the lives they wrecked.. I don't know... Should they? (another shame based word)... but I cannot tell you whether they did or not...

But what about something simple, like post of scores with names... or posting top producers... if you make the list you are flying high... but if you don't make the list you are made to feel like less than because you did not attain a certain level. Minor examples, but all I am asking is that you look at shame from as very basic point and see how society revolves around the shame factor.

Pure, you can cite examples like those you used, but remember they represent on a tiny, tiny minority of the people in this country. People go on Jerry Springer because there are always going to be some kind of show like that... it is really about entertainment... not about reality... those guests are coached and told how to act... there are articles on this aspect of the Springer show... do a google, look it up... they are there...

So again, I am sticking to what I believe is true and that is we are based in shame....

 

[catalina_francisco]

I think I have to agree in the most part with Pure. I see little evidence of shame as understood in days gone by. Changing the meaning of a word to keep it useable is not my idea of correct interpretation, though I am aware language changes over time. I think the guy who murdered his children is a classic example of domestic violence more so than mental illness. It is the ultimate act of power and control used by perpetrators, and to date they have not been able to come up with a mental illness that causes DV, though it was thought to be so many decades ago.

As for Clinton, he lied out of guilt and a need to preserve his butt, not because he was ashamed. Was much like the child caught with his hand in the cookie jar...they can devise some fantastic reasons why they are doing it, or even that they aren't, but more so as a protective measure than shame.

I think in reality shame is a deep emotion which tends to make people look for anonymity and invisibility more so than public displays of innocence or reason. My understanding in reading literature from times gone by where shame is described, is it is not something which a person finds easy to deal with or live with. Lying and deceit do not usually enter the picture after the shame is realised as the person does not feel strong enough, or perhaps justified, to even try to decieve to save their own skin. It is usually a moment of truth when they realise what they have done or been labelled with and see no recourse but to accept it and disappear. Deep embarrassment on the other hand does allow for a person to fight back at some point. I rarely, if ever see the former these days, though the latter is sometime displayed though at a declining rate IMO.

Catalina

 

[Pure]

Hi Cellis,

You give one example, about widespread shaming:


//But what about something simple, like post of scores with names... or posting top producers... if you make the list you are flying high... but if you don't make the list you are made to feel like less than because you did not attain a certain level. Minor examples, but all I am asking is that you look at shame from as very basic point and see how society revolves around the shame factor.//

I don't know if you mean students' scores or workers'. Taking the first case, with which I'm familiar, I think there is much less student 'shaming' any more. No one is ever told to 'stand in the corner.' No one is called stupid or retarded, out in the open. It's quite hard to get an F, and indeed 'failing' no longer exists, it would be

" "N" --needs a lot of improvement in the following areas... eligible for special programs."

"I have a learning disability" is stated almost with pride, by my niece, referring to academic problems, and she feels entitled to special considerations to upgrade her performance.

"Social promotion" (i.e., independent of performance) is the rule in grade school.

In respect of children, most child rearing books strongly recommend against any shaming, and emphasize always being positive "that's a wonderful drawing," and ignoring or calmly discussing fuckups "Momma wants to ask, Can you be a little more careful not to spill any ink, dear? --She's a little upset about the stain on the sofa and knows you didn't mean for it to happen."

These are some small things that occur to me.

Best regards,

J.

 

[sweetnpetite]

I don't think 'shame' has been well defined. It differs from guilt. But given the ridicule of googling and actually looking at reference material, I'm not going hunting right now.

J.

Would you be 'ashamed' of your googling activity or mearly 'guilt ridden?'

 

[sweetnpetite]

Isn't shame about how one is viewed in the eyes of others or how one views oneself in comparison against the majority rule?

Ex: Johnny, who lives in a poor neighborhood, goes to dinner at Susie Rich Girl's parents home. When asked at the dinner table (laden with finery) where he lives, the shame he feels about his less than stellar abode courses through him and he quickly changes the subject.

Do i have this wrong?

Shame is so very personal. i don't necessarily feel shame if my face is dirty, but if i am made to do something where i know others will see my humiliation, that shame comes up quick and fast. What a terrible/delicious feeling no?

lara

I think this would better fit the definition of embarassment. (According to the definitions given) From this example, it sounds like johney's feelings are mostly in relationship to his present situation whereas shame would be a relatively permanant state of disgust with himself because of his origins.

But I think maybe there are two types or definition of shame. "Shame lite" that could be fun to play around with and 'deep shame' that causes you to devalue yourself.

_____________

The mention of parenting books telling you not to shame children really helped me to focus my definition.

guilt is when you feel you've done something bad

shame is when you feel you ARE bad

 

[Pure]

Would you be 'ashamed' of your googling activity or mearly 'guilt ridden?'

Hi Sweet,

That's a hard one . It's a great pasttime and method of self-education. OK, I guess it's some kind of kink--what do you think?-- when a google search ends and says, "1.2 million entries found" I just cream all over the keyboard.

Actually I'm _embarrassed_ at good ol' American yahoo-ism, and alleged sexual minority exemplars and advocates who simply do not read.

J.

 

[sweetnpetite]

Oh the shame! I yahoo all the time.

I'm literate though, really I am!!!!!!

Is google really better?

 

[Pure]

Sweet confessed,

"Oh the shame! I yahoo all the time."

And do you type with one hand, or two?

 

[RisiaSkye]

I just love watching people tell each other how they really feel. Lords know we're all too stupid to speak for ourselves on such subjects, n'est-ce pas?

Psychological bullshit: it's what's for dinner.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

I just love watching people tell each other how they really feel. Lords know we're all too stupid to speak for ourselves on such subjects, n'est-ce pas?

Psychological bullshit: it's what's for dinner.

And don't forget to hold the pickle ...

 

[RisiaSkye]

LOL
Not to worry, Assassin. I never forget that.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

"... the fact that you're surrounded by idiots ... " --Scott Adams

"When in doubt, empty the magazine." --- AA