Does SM have anything to do with 'the dark side'

[Pure]

Hi O Mac,

I didn't intend, quite, to be read in the way you took it,

OMac: The question put forward was whether or not we (in the lifestyle) consider BDSM to be dark (ie: unhealthy, abusive, etc.).

"Dark" to me implies something to be immoral, unhealthy, or illegal in some way or another.
--------

So I've added this note to the original posting.

P: //NOTE: I did not include the terms 'evil,' 'illegal,' or 'abusive,' on purpose. Those terms raise the issues, below [next note], since they usually indicate (pro or) con attitudes. 'Corrupt', of course, does have some links with 'immoral,' but the latter, for present purposes, would have to be read as "what's generaly considered 'immoral.' "//

There are lots of issues, and I didn't want to get into hair splitting, hence the very general term 'dark,' and let each person read into it what they will. The issue of 'healthy/unhealthy' is also a vast topic which I leave aside here. Leaves, of course, are decidedly 'unhealthy' when they decay; but decayed leaves are what make for rich soil that gives life and health to plants.


I appreciate the thought that goes into your postings.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I didn't intend, quite, to be read in the way you took it,

OMac: The question put forward was whether or not we (in the lifestyle) consider BDSM to be dark (ie: unhealthy, abusive, etc.).

"Dark" to me implies something to be immoral, unhealthy, or illegal in some way or another.
--------

So I've added this note to the original posting.

P: //NOTE: I did not include the terms 'evil,' 'illegal,' or 'abusive,' on purpose. Those terms raises the issues, below, since they usually indicate (pro or) con attitudes. 'Corrupt', of course, does have some links with 'immoral,' but the latter, for present purposes, would have to be read as "what's generaly considered 'immoral.' "//

There are lots of issues, and I didn't want to get into hair splitting, hence the very general term 'dark,' and let each person read into it what they will. The issue of 'healthy/unhealthy' is also a vast topic which I leave aside here. Leaves, of course, are decidedly 'unhealthy' when they decay; but decayed leaves are what make for rich soil that gives life and health to plants.


I appreciate the thought that goes into your postings.

Sometimes I just love your mind, Pure.

Catalina

 

[Slydr]

Dark light, these are spurious labels; intent gives you the meaning. If you mean to be a nasty person then things may be "dark".
Jerry Falwell is entitled to his opinion, however it has less validity than guano.

 

[crazybbwgirl]

Dark light, these are spurious labels; intent gives you the meaning. If you mean to be a nasty person then things may be "dark".
Jerry Falwell is entitled to his opinion, however it has less validity than guano.

Amen. Actually, I'm pretty sure Jerry lives in a bat-filled cave when not hawking money on tv!

 

[Netzach]

True in part, though you took it I was talking about the opinion of non BDSMers whereas I was referring to the view of many also into BDSM. When I look at the synonym's of dark Pure presents at the top of the thread, it still comes back to yes for me as words such as wanton, corrupt, debased, sullied are terms I can identify with in terms of where our play aims at, and terms which have been used by other players in relation to our lifestyle and play. Even last night I drew comments in a D/s based group online regarding what the majority of the group saw as darker than what they were used to. We do play in ways which are often seen by other players as corrupt, debased etc., on both a physical and psychological level. Add to that I have been checking out another forum/site where many play even harder and more risky than us and I can definately see where the darkness is alive and well.

It sort of reminds me of friends in vanilla days who have told me how adventurous and daring their sexlife is and yet they have gotten to 40+ and never had anal sex, oral sex, period sex, or basically anything other than one on one missionary with the occasional change of position. In comparison what I was doing in my teens just used to make them have a fit. Just as in vanilla, there are different experiences pursued in BDSM by some which tend to go beyond the general practice which will be seen by some to be darker. It is neither better or worse except for the needs fulfilled of the ones involved.

Catalina

This reminds me of a back and forth I had with someone close to me. I had called him a slut or something, because he is a voracious skirt chasing scorpio. Seriously, he'll chase a pair of panties just to find out what's in them, say "cool" and then wander off to the next just to see what's in them. It's a broad lust-for-life thing that really doesn't even consummate half as often as it just chases to chase. As the barkeep said to him "and when you catch one, what are you gonna do with it?" To which he had no answer. I think he more often than not just says "tag you're it" and moves on, being very STD aware for a slut.

Anyhow I called him a slut and he just grinned and blew it off and said "yes." And I realized that I'd met my psychic match, no wonder I'd found a man I'd be willing to bottom to in him. This was a man with no sexual shame. Various activities might be "ew, that makes me cringe, no my thing" or "no way" but not "dirty" or "beaneath me" or "bad." Which is kind of how I feel about it too, but I've adopted more common social mores the more I play, as I tend to enjoy other people's shame far more than is probably normal, so I gravitate to that shame and try to coax it out with disgust in my toolkit of methods.

So, corrupt is in the eye of the beholder I guess is what I'm trying to say. For some people every deviation from man on top married sex is depraved, and for others there is no real transgression in sucking two t-girls in a bathroom, no darkness in being chained, whipped, kicked and spit on. It's all where you stand.

 

[John Doe]

This reminds me of a back and forth I had with someone close to me. I had called him a slut or something, because he is a voracious skirt chasing scorpio. Seriously, he'll chase a pair of panties just to find out what's in them, say "cool" and then wander off to the next just to see what's in them. It's a broad lust-for-life thing that really doesn't even consummate half as often as it just chases to chase. As the barkeep said to him "and when you catch one, what are you gonna do with it?" To which he had no answer. I think he more often than not just says "tag you're it" and moves on, being very STD aware for a slut.

Anyhow I called him a slut and he just grinned and blew it off and said "yes." And I realized that I'd met my psychic match, no wonder I'd found a man I'd be willing to bottom to in him. This was a man with no sexual shame. Various activities might be "ew, that makes me cringe, no my thing" or "no way" but not "dirty" or "beaneath me" or "bad." Which is kind of how I feel about it too, but I've adopted more common social mores the more I play, as I tend to enjoy other people's shame far more than is probably normal, so I gravitate to that shame and try to coax it out with disgust in my toolkit of methods.

So, corrupt is in the eye of the beholder I guess is what I'm trying to say. For some people every deviation from man on top married sex is depraved, and for others there is no real transgression in sucking two t-girls in a bathroom, no darkness in being chained, whipped, kicked and spit on. It's all where you stand.

The Force is strong with this one.

 

[Netzach]

I think "BDSM, like a fart on a bus" would be a great T shirt.

 

[Pure]

netzach, what are

t-girls and where do i find them?

 

[babiesmiles]

In my opinion and based on my short experience it can be very dark but it can be light and relieving as well , almost with therapeutic virtues.

It depends on the people involved and on their personal tastes , it depends on the moment and the moods as well , no session is equal to another , no people is identical to another .
So I voted it is neutral

 

[alice_underneath]

Does SM have anything to do with 'the dark side'?

I was exploring the NCSF website and found a document that made me think of your question, Pure.

Before anyone else points out the obvious, I'll note that the NCSF has a clear agenda. A laudable one, but an agenda nonetheless.

However, the NCSF essay does present one response to the question at hand, so here it is. The red text below is an excerpt from: What is SM?

************

SM is about love and pleasure

SM is about sensation and stimulation, exchanging power, trusting one's partner, and sharing love and pleasure. Some SM practitioners seek "pain" but they want the sensation administered in a way that is ultimately pleasurable to them.

Sociologists Weinberg and Kamel wrote in 1995:

"Much S&M involves very little pain. Rather, many sadomasochists prefer acts such as verbal humiliation or abuse, cross-dressing, being tied up (bondage), mild spankings where no severe discomfort is involved, and the like. Often, it is the notion of being helpless and subject to the will of another that is sexually titillating... At the very core of sadomasochism is not pain but the idea of control - dominance and submission."

Thomas S. Weinberg and G.W. Kamel (1995). "S&M: An Introduction to the Study of Sadomasochism," S&M: Studies in Dominance and Submission, Prometheus Books, pg. 19.

Havelock Ellis, M.D., produced a groundbreaking study of sexuality: Studies of the Psychology of Sex, in which he wrote that the concept of pain is much misunderstood:

"The essence of sadomasochism is not so much "pain" as the overwhelming of one's senses - emotionally more than physically. Active sexual masochism has little to do with pain and everything to do with the search for emotional pleasure. When we understand that it is pain only, and not cruelty, that is the essential in this group of manifestations, we begin to come nearer to their explanation. The masochist desires to experience pain, but he generally desires that it should be inflicted in love; the sadist desires to inflict pain, but he desires that it should be felt as love...."

Havelock Ellis, M.D. (1926). Studies of the Psychology of Sex, F.A. Davis Company, pg. 160.

 

[Pure]

i take it your answer to the thread question is

'no it's squeaky clean.'

 

[alice_underneath]

i take it your answer to the thread question is
'no it's squeaky clean.'

Nope. I voted "neutral" shortly after you put up the poll.

The NCSF piece does not make me want to change my vote, but I do find the perspective helpful as a balance to some of the more deviant points of view.

 

[Netzach]

The NCSF exists to not get us thrown into jail by people who think we're grabbing people off the street and chaining them in basements. I think it can safely be assumed we're exploring some of the less "savory" aspects of human sexuality as much as heterosexual vanilla people. In a legal and medical context no one is going to print "sex is a good way to bust a nut and feel on top of the world" they are going to say "it's an important part of a committed relationship, sex is a way for people to feel close blah blah" because this furthers mainstream social agendas so nicely.

 

[Pure]

[deleted]
.....

 

[crzydesert]

I'm on the fence with this one. I think it depends on the person.

 

[Evil_Geoff]

For me, personally, My BDSM has a dark core.

I'm a sadist, and not so full of hubris as to think I am not so very far removed from the John Edward Robinson's, the Larry Gene Bell's, the Ted Bundy's and Jeffrey Dahmer's of the world.

I do have a throttle and clutch between the fantasies that reside in my heart and mind, and the activities I allow myself to actually pursue. I have an extremely well developed sense of self-preservation and I function in society on a pretty normal level. Many people would consider me very upright and trustworthy, a very civic/community oriented person. And they would be, for the most part, correct.

But inside I have a raging beast that is always held in check, a creature of basest instinct and desire, that would, if loosed, rape and murder with abandon, that would torture with glee, not for the pleasure of my partner but to savor the fear and terror, to relish the screams of agony and the pathetic whimpers and pleas for mercy and release. A being that would roar in triumph and ecstasy as the life slow ebbed from it's victims.

Hannibal Lecter isn't a monster to this inner beast, he is a hero, a role model to emulate and learn from.

There is a line that I will not cross because I have no desire to spend the rest of my days looking over my shoulder and hiding, I have no desire to spend the rest of my days caged in a prison. But the beast is there, make no mistake about that. I'll edge up to that line, but I won't cross it.

Or will I?

 

[crazybbwgirl]

For me, personally, My BDSM has a dark core.

I'm a sadist, and not so full of hubris as to think I am not so very far removed from the John Edward Robinson's, the Larry Gene Bell's, the Ted Bundy's and Jeffrey Dahmer's of the world.

I do have a throttle and clutch between the fantasies that reside in my heart and mind, and the activities I allow myself to actually pursue. I have an extremely well developed sense of self-preservation and I function in society on a pretty normal level. Many people would consider me very upright and trustworthy, a very civic/community oriented person. And they would be, for the most part, correct.

But inside I have a raging beast that is always held in check, a creature of basest instinct and desire, that would, if loosed, rape and murder with abandon, that would torture with glee, not for the pleasure of my partner but to savor the fear and terror, to relish the screams of agony and the pathetic whimpers and pleas for mercy and release. A being that would roar in triumph and ecstasy as the life slow ebbed from it's victims.

Hannibal Lecter isn't a monster to this inner beast, he is a hero, a role model to emulate and learn from.

There is a line that I will not cross because I have no desire to spend the rest of my days looking over my shoulder and hiding, I have no desire to spend the rest of my days caged in a prison. But the beast is there, make no mistake about that. I'll edge up to that line, but I won't cross it.

Or will I?

Now that's what I'm talking about... excellent post!

 

[Pure]

geoff,

you don't sound like dahmer or bundy to me. (do you kill small animals?), but are 'bigger,' i.e., of larger perspective. to say 'i have demons' is not to become one.

i think the line you speak of crossing is not a wall; some slide across it very easily, as some of those reports from Haditha indicate-- a buddy is killed and you're filled with hate and come upon someone who may have shielded his killer and you shoot man, woman and child. i remember a scene in apocalypse now, where they stop a sampan boat with a family and search the boat for arms, then one of the family makes a false move and then they're almost all dead, and have to be finished off.

intriguing posting!

 

[Evil_Geoff]

you don't sound like dahmer or bundy to me. (do you kill small animals?), but are 'bigger,' i.e., of larger perspective. to say 'i have demons' is not to become one.
...
intriguing posting!

Hi Pure,

Do I kill small animals? Not recently, but I have in the past. I would usually eat them too. I grew up hunting, so bagging small game animals like rabbits, squirrels, racoons and the like was no biggie. Offing the neighbors' dogs and cats on the other hand, would have been A) Too easy, and B) too likely to draw unwanted attention. However, tormenting the neighborhood critters like tying strings of cans to a dogs tail or packing a cat into a mailbox was an interesting pass time.

Just knowing the inner demons are there does not prevent someone from becoming one, anymore than just knowing you are going mad will prevent you from going crazy. Knowing is only half the battle. The other half of the battle is to take positive, active steps to maintain control or to keep from slipping further into the abyss. It may take self-help, meditation, counselling, medicines, surgery or other medical treatment or some combination of all these things to keep the madness at bay. Sometimes it can be "cured", but more often than not, like diabetes or other chronic conditions, it can only be controlled.

My biggest step in self help was accepting this part of my nature. It IS a large part of who and what I am. And by accepting this part of me, and allowing it some of the release of SM play, the beast is appeased and quieted.

For a while anyway.... *weg*

 

[FurryFury]

Hi Pure,

Do I kill small animals? Not recently, but I have in the past. I would usually eat them too. I grew up hunting, so bagging small game animals like rabbits, squirrels, racoons and the like was no biggie. Offing the neighbors' dogs and cats on the other hand, would have been A) Too easy, and B) too likely to draw unwanted attention. However, tormenting the neighborhood critters like tying strings of cans to a dogs tail or packing a cat into a mailbox was an interesting pass time.

Just knowing the inner demons are there does not prevent someone from becoming one, anymore than just knowing you are going mad will prevent you from going crazy. Knowing is only half the battle. The other half of the battle is to take positive, active steps to maintain control or to keep from slipping further into the abyss. It may take self-help, meditation, counselling, medicines, surgery or other medical treatment or some combination of all these things to keep the madness at bay. Sometimes it can be "cured", but more often than not, like diabetes or other chronic conditions, it can only be controlled.

My biggest step in self help was accepting this part of my nature. It IS a large part of who and what I am. And by accepting this part of me, and allowing it some of the release of SM play, the beast is appeased and quieted.

For a while anyway.... *weg*

Brave admissions.

Scary for me to think about.

I'm glad you are focusing on people sort of like me that WANT what you have to give now!!!

*hugs kitty tight*

Fury

 

[RJMasters]

My biggest step in self help was accepting this part of my nature. It IS a large part of who and what I am. And by accepting this part of me, and allowing it some of the release of SM play, the beast is appeased and quieted.

Fuckin-aye-skippy!

 

[RJMasters]

Of course there is a dark side to SM.

A tougher question is...is there a good side to SM? I don't see how taking pleasure from hurting another has any other nature than being dark. Yet one cannot deny the positive effects it can have on those who practice it consentingly.

For me, the crux of the issue goes back in how we form in our thinking of what is Good...what is bad, what is right and what is wrong. Hence the analogy of dark or light.

For those who view SM as evil, then a dark view is applied. I imagine most vanilla people do see it as evil and wrong and therefore dark. For those who engage consentingly in SM, I'd wager they do not see it as evil or wrong.

The question seems to me then to be more about the nature of SM and the motivations behind it. Is it inheirently evil and therefore the motivations which come from individuals make them evil.

There are different levels of practicing sadism. There is a level that does not include consent. Taking pleasure in hurting another when they do not want it is about as dark and evil as it gets. Then there is a level of practicing sadism where consent is given. This of course is adopted in lue of going to jail, and many relationships are formed based upon the practice of this type of sadism and its called SM play/relationship.

On a side note...I tend to think that because of the nature of SM death or killing someone is often presented as "the line" in which one attempts to get close to but not cross. I think there could be good discussion on this to see if this is really the case. For me death is not the goal of sadism, it to ensure they stay alove so they can suffer and feel the pain. I am not even sure that its a goal for me to see how close I can to that line. There can be an argument about the added thrill in coming close to that line will bring, but as long as what is being exchanged is the person is experiencing pain becasue of me....and for me....then I am happy. I can think of 100s of ways to inflict pain and not come close to that line.

Is there a dark side to SM...yes.

 

[Pure]

rj's remarks

as to rj's remarks on the 'dark side'; i do not equate it with criminality, as i stated in my post #26, (6-14) above. i gave a few words in my first posting that would suggest its range of meaning.

i certainly agree however, that a very important line is crossed when actions become *criminally sadistic*, ie. involve assault, rape, murder, for example. that line is not this thread's topic.