Does this suck?

[Angeline]

You ask if your poem "sucks" in such a way as to make me believe you think it does.

What makes this poem "suck" to you? Once you critique your poem with an objective eye, I don't think you'll need anyone else to explain what they saw, bad or good, in your poem. You'll already know.

Don't bait the hook with bad meat unless you expect the sharks to bite and run with it.

I suddenly feel very sharky. And I always thought I was more of a Jet.

 

[Epmd607]

...XXplorher, I don't know you. I've never spoken to you or even heard of you until a few minutes ago. I don't care whether you're a terrific poet or absolutely rotten. So, speaking as a stranger to you, I have this to say:

You have the idea--I can tell that it was there, pressing you to write this. But the idea is not yet developed. I think that you might be trapped in the erroneous idea that to make a poem better, you must continue to work on it.

This is wrong.

Put away your red ink-pen and go back to your pencil and a blank page. Write your ideas again and again, in new and better poems. This creative process will better reflect your growth as an artist as well as give you opportunities to explore the concepts that intrigue you...

...I hope that you are able to learn from the insight and ideas of your critics, many of whom probably write poetry themselves. Despite the occasional flame, it seems that the people here are truly supportive. They're actually analysing your poetry and giving intelligent feedback, rather than snap judgements-- and that's a rare and precious quality in a critic. Listen to what they say, think about it honestly, and see what you can use.

Good luck!

Ria

Ria must be a Christian or something, because after reading what XXplor said to his past critics she/he still went ahead and took the time to critique the unhealthy mess of his tender poem. We're all pretty much self-flagellating here by continuing this thread, trying to make sure xxplor knows that he's a dum dum lollypop. But I'm glad that it's more than a couple people, because it'd be nice if one internet baby understood what's a proper way to respond to solid criticism.

Also, this guy is in his thirties at least, and I think he has a kid, and to me that's old enough to not call people who were trying to help you "cunts" and whatnot via text boxes on a free erotic poetry website. XXplor send me a personal message, I'll continue to argue with you about your lifestyle choices and contradictory aesthetic theories--that is if you're not busy writing rubbish poems and immediately releasing them as if they're Allah's gift to Nizami.

 

[champagne1982]

One cannot be a martyr until you willingly suffer, especially, from self-inflicted pain. I have an excellent wet hemp mop annnd a fine horsehair shirt. When combined with a healthy dose of mom-inflicted guilt (you get double points if like Ang, your mom is Jewish) this is a most excellent method of constant angst and agony.

Warning: Self-flagellation is easily confused with masturbation. Beware enjoyment!

 

[Angeline]

One cannot be a martyr until you willingly suffer, especially, from self-inflicted pain. I have an excellent wet hemp mop annnd a fine horsehair shirt. When combined with a healthy dose of mom-inflicted guilt (you get double points if like Ang, your mom is Jewish) this is a most excellent method of constant angst and agony.

Warning: Self-flagellation is easily confused with masturbation. Beware enjoyment!

Yes, my mom is a master of the "I have a terrible headache but you go out anyway, I'll be fine really" school of noblesse oblige.

 

[hmmnmm]

There's a time and a place for everything but not every time or place is the time or place for everything every time.

Meaning: It would be inadvisable to close oneself off from learning any possible thing from any person or beast or event.

Meaning: Learn to use as many tools as well as you possibly can but know when to use what tool and when not to use what tool.

Meaning: There's a time to try and work it out on your own (my personally favored way, though it's a slower route), a time to sit back and watch (second favored way), a time to not be ashamed to ask someone for a hint, and a time to assimilate (the mood I at present feel coming on, and shamelessly so).

As far as active application of the above I'm the least dependable, most sloppy and laziest and whatever else mean crappy. But they are little beacons I try and remember and meditate on over coffee or between thinking of juicy sex fantasy material, and then forget.

Keep the change.

 

[Safe_Bet]

...All of Timmie's good stuff...

That was one of the best postings I have read in a LONG time.

Meaning: Ooooo. That was REALLY good, dude.

*Throws change into tip jar*

ETA: BTW, thanks for reminding the "EGOS" on both sides of the subject that we can learn from everybody and that by getting all "uppity" and "acting the fool" (sorry, The Fool) people just read your comments and completely discount your bad punk ass self.

 

[bflagsst]

There's a time and a place for everything but not every time or place is the time or place for everything every time.

Meaning: It would be inadvisable to close oneself off from learning any possible thing from any person or beast or event.

Meaning: Learn to use as many tools as well as you possibly can but know when to use what tool and when not to use what tool.

Meaning: There's a time to try and work it out on your own (my personally favored way, though it's a slower route), a time to sit back and watch (second favored way), a time to not be ashamed to ask someone for a hint, and a time to assimilate (the mood I at present feel coming on, and shamelessly so).

As far as active application of the above I'm the least dependable, most sloppy and laziest and whatever else mean crappy. But they are little beacons I try and remember and meditate on over coffee or between thinking of juicy sex fantasy material, and then forget.

Keep the change.

This is like a byrds song. Haha. A time to love a time to hate a time to gather stones a time to cast away stones... the lyrics are confusing. More like: with loves and hates and passions just like mine, they were born and then they lived and then they died, seems so unfair, I want to cry da da dum dum doo doo da

 

[hmmnmm]

Those 12-string sounds... Oh...

 

[annaswirls]

Asking "does this suck?" is like a self-conscious woman asking her lover "Do these jeans make my ass look fat?"

She (most likely) just wants you to say "Of course not sweetie, you are perfect in whatever you wear."

If she wants a real answer, she will ask a friend. In private. After saying I swear I mean it, tell me the truth.

And if the friend tells her honestly, Yes, darling, they do make your ass look fat. I will help you find something more flattering, because you do have a mighty fine ass. then everyone wins.

Unless the fat bottomed girl throws a hissy fit on her friend, in which case, never ever answer again.

This is why I tend to stay away from giving advice to people whose work I think is not too great and who are obviously just trying to find someone to tell them that it is.

It is always a good idea to at least ask them again, "Are you looking for specific suggestions on how to improve the poem, or just looking for us to point out the things we like?"

 

[annaswirls]

Hi Ria,

Excellent points here! I totally agree with your idea of growing as a writer, not necessarily fixing every poem.

Hope to see more of you around here--

Anna

Angeline's comments seem the most perceptive and insightful of all of those written. (I agreed with everything she said, but only quoted the points relevant to this post.)

XXplorher, I don't know you. I've never spoken to you or even heard of you until a few minutes ago. I don't care whether you're a terrific poet or absolutely rotten. So, speaking as a stranger to you, I have this to say:

You have the idea--I can tell that it was there, pressing you to write this. But the idea is not yet developed. I think that you might be trapped in the erroneous idea that to make a poem better, you must continue to work on it.

This is wrong.

Put away your red ink-pen and go back to your pencil and a blank page. Write your ideas again and again, in new and better poems. This creative process will better reflect your growth as an artist as well as give you opportunities to explore the concepts that intrigue you.

................

And then I'd set it aside and go back to it later for another rewrite. (Because clearly, this is rather bad poetry: very little that you come up with in a few minutes is really good in its raw form.)

I do this a lot in my books-- often, I write in a character or an idea that isn't well enough defined to "work." Even if I scrap it in that story, that character or idea will continue to reappear in drafts and short stories until I have a really good idea of where I want to go with this.

I hope that you are able to learn from the insight and ideas of your critics, many of whom probably write poetry themselves. Despite the occasional flame, it seems that the people here are truly supportive. They're actually analysing your poetry and giving intelligent feedback, rather than snap judgements-- and that's a rare and precious quality in a critic. Listen to what they say, think about it honestly, and see what you can use.

Good luck!

Ria

 

[XXplorher]

Two pages, eh? Say a few inflammatory things beyond an admittedly crappy poem annnnd – popcorn!

I need to apologize to Ria. Was definitely not expecting someone to afford that kind of effort to this exercise in futility. I was bored and decided to see if I can’t make something happen over nothing. Your well considered effort makes me feel horrible and hopeful all at once. Yours is clearly superior and far more liquid than mine. However, I would never choose to write it the way you just did. I specifically would never want to write it in that verse. You’re not me. But that’s besides the point. Why did you bother doing that? I wonder if I had to get loud and obnoxious to create that type of consideration. That’s something to debate, eh?

Beyond that I would note Angeline’s 2nd paragraph as a qualified critique. That’s the way it ought to be done. Thank you!

I’ve said this elsewhere, but this bizarre idea that a ‘critic’ (which requires virtually zero affirmation of ability. Who CAN’T be a critic?) is somehow removed from the field of judgement – is fuckin’ ridiculous. It really does concern me.

So I played with that a bit. And other than the two I mentioned above – the rest of you failed miserably. I give you a D-. No one had anything reMOTELY constructive to say. Just a bunch of birds…


Perhaps the fact I’m a little kid sitting on a plastic toilet with a Playboy in his hands ought to tip you off that I love to question authority?

Adios.

 

[annaswirls]

So I played with that a bit. And other than the two I mentioned above – the rest of you failed miserably. I give you a D-. No one had anything reMOTELY constructive to say. Just a bunch of birds…

Can you please show me where you have given constructive criticism of other writers that makes you think you are owed such a favor?

Perhaps the fact I’m a little kid sitting on a plastic toilet with a Playboy in his hands ought to tip you off that I love to question authority?

Adios.

Whose authority in this case? You have as much authority as anyone else here. Step up and show how you want to be treated by treating others in that way. I challenge you to be an example of the change you want to be instead of scolding others. From what I have seen, you are the one barking orders, sir.

 

[champagne1982]

You ask if your poem "sucks" in such a way as to make me believe you think it does.

What makes this poem "suck" to you? Once you critique your poem with an objective eye, I don't think you'll need anyone else to explain what they saw, bad or good, in your poem. You'll already know.

Don't bait the hook with bad meat unless you expect the sharks to bite and run with it.

I don't like quoting my own posts but I make exceptions sometimes.

Two pages, eh? Say a few inflammatory things beyond an admittedly crappy poem annnnd – popcorn!
<snip>
Perhaps the fact I’m a little kid sitting on a plastic toilet with a Playboy in his hands ought to tip you off that I love to question authority?

Adios.

The formatting inside this quote is mine. That being said. I was right and now, truly, you definitely need to go with God yourself since I'm ready to close the door on your wankin' whinin' ass.

 

[XXplorher]

Wait… Your sub-stupid-ass to God?

Sometimes you make exceptions, to “God”. When it’s done strictly for reasons of self-approval?


I don’t even know what we’re talking about anymore, but I can’t wait for some human person to determine my true ‘ignorance’.

 

[butters]

over four years old and yet you feel this is worth continuing?

you're not a kid, you're an adult. getting on for middle-aged. the whole sitting there with your fuck-you finger in the air doesn't do your former writing justice. and yes, you did have some sort of reputation here as a writer - one you swapped out for a different, less attractive one. i'd suggest you lay down all that crap, walk away from it, and rediscover yourself - the man behind the super-inflated ego gone-bust stuff. reinvent yourself by paring back the act and finding the real you; the past is only as much of a burden as we allow it to be - we can put it down.

 

[GuiltyPleasure]

Wait… Your sub-stupid-ass to God?

Sometimes you make exceptions, to “God”. When it’s done strictly for reasons of self-approval?


I don’t even know what we’re talking about anymore, but I can’t wait for some human person to determine my true ‘ignorance’.

Do you have a mirror? Read every word in this thread then look at yourself. Do you really think you're worth all this advice and suggestions of help. I was spurred to go and read your writing after Buttys "and yes, you did have some sort of reputation here as a writer " but all I found is one story - no poetry. To me it looks as if it is undiluted praise you look for in a passive/aggresive way and that does suck, yes.

 

[butters]

Do you have a mirror? Read every word in this thread then look at yourself. Do you really think you're worth all this advice and suggestions of help. I was spurred to go and read your writing after Buttys "and yes, you did have some sort of reputation here as a writer " but all I found is one story - no poetry. To me it looks as if it is undiluted praise you look for in a passive/aggresive way and that does suck, yes.

seems way back that he and dcl were unsurpassed for their writing abilities. way back, or so i heard. the this guy sort of fell apart and became something less savoury. every now and again throws his guts out there looking for recognition and because of how he behaves gets negative reactions. instead of clinging to some overrated past he needs to shrug that shit off and start out naked, new, and not dive behind the armour of whatever conceit/drug/alcohol he uses for a shell. when he has the bravery to do that, and not expect plaudits for this same 'bravery', he might gain a clearer insight into the process of creative writing.

 

[GuiltyPleasure]

seems way back that he and dcl were unsurpassed for their writing abilities. way back, or so i heard. the this guy sort of fell apart and became something less savoury. every now and again throws his guts out there looking for recognition and because of how he behaves gets negative reactions. instead of clinging to some overrated past he needs to shrug that shit off and start out naked, new, and not dive behind the armour of whatever conceit/drug/alcohol he uses for a shell. when he has the bravery to do that, and not expect plaudits for this same 'bravery', he might gain a clearer insight into the process of creative writing.

I was mistaken, his sole contribution is a poem, not a story and the poem is clearly written in pain. It's pretty searing.

I have no memory of his or dcl's stories not being a frequent reader myself but dcl appears in the compendium produced a few years back. One wonders why XXp removed all his writing, shame

 

[XXplorher]

over four years old and yet you feel this is worth continuing?

you're not a kid, you're an adult. getting on for middle-aged. the whole sitting there with your fuck-you finger in the air doesn't do your former writing justice. and yes, you did have some sort of reputation here as a writer - one you swapped out for a different, less attractive one. i'd suggest you lay down all that crap, walk away from it, and rediscover yourself - the man behind the super-inflated ego gone-bust stuff. reinvent yourself by paring back the act and finding the real you; the past is only as much of a burden as we allow it to be - we can put it down.

Well done. Good truth.

I'm workin on it... (very much as you detailed it there, actually)


For the record, the intention all along was to be more than 'the self'. But it all fell apart while I myself was not achieving what I preach and the math just stopped adding up, eh. Couple that with crumbling ideas of the world around me and... you've got yourself one hell of a compromised philosophy. The ape beats his chest, absent of other ideas.

In the end, I'm full of it. Circumstances will rule. We're all lucky at best.
And I'm coming to grips with that... (reticently)


That's good beat-down, Butters. Give the ego a bit more time to find some footing and maybe I'll become a better balanced human.

 

[XXplorher]

Do you have a mirror? Read every word in this thread then look at yourself. Do you really think you're worth all this advice and suggestions of help. I was spurred to go and read your writing after Buttys "and yes, you did have some sort of reputation here as a writer " but all I found is one story - no poetry. To me it looks as if it is undiluted praise you look for in a passive/aggresive way and that does suck, yes.

Yeah, I yanked it all on account of my mammoth ego.

(Not exactly, but let's just go with that.)


You're observation wouldn't be accurate. But it's cool. I got what I asked for from 'Butters'... which is especially hilarious, given I AM a giant South Park fan.

Rock on, peeps. Thanks for bein' real.

 

[XXplorher]

seems way back that he and dcl were unsurpassed for their writing abilities.

Not. We were unsurpassed for our ability to get in each other’s faces, make noise, counter-fuck each other like some misguided fags.


It did happen when the internet was sorta new, and ‘how to get noticed’ hadn’t yet been defined. To DCL’s credit (and mine) I don’t think we were trying to turn that into some self-obsessed commodity. But it did grow rather addictive. A reaction, became rather obsessive.

As it turns out, that generates attention and you now have a guntha-gantic social world obsessed with slandering each other.


But that was never my interest or goal.

I wanted to smash things, find things, polish things, move things, fix things, and generally feel like my pain becomes and asset as opposed to a liability. In my attempts to do that I’ve insisted on the right to be different. That the 97 has no fucking idea what they’re discussing… until the one, talks to the other two… and then something happens.

Because the 97 do not lead the Earth beyond where it’s been. The other 3 do.


My biggest problem is I thought I’d be one of the three.

And that’s my bad.

Point taken.



Having said that...

Ain't no hamfisted jackass gonna tell me that poewm I powsted initiawly ain't no dawrned gewd. Iknew where I was dewin. (For reals though. Snowballs quietly dent.)