"Doing Well" on Literotica

[lustychimera]

I don't understand how you can say this. The scenario was really clear that the author's other stories got read and got highly rated as the result of a new story being published. It's more than the one story doing well.

Besides:

He didn't say this, but when I read @StillStunned 's post, I either read between the lines or inserted my own interpretation. Either way, it can be interpreted as a sign of "doing well" in the sense that the author's craft is demonstrably improving. Some authors aren't really reaching for any level of craft and this wouldn't be a factor they think about, but others love making "progress" in the craft.

Yeah I tend to think there's a spectrum with commercial viability on one side and trying literary things to improve your craft on the other.

I love a good Jack Reacher book, and Child's insanely successful. A hundred million books sold. If he's not the biggest, he's one of the biggest authors in the world, but he's been writing the same book for 25 years. His last book reads just like his first. He's the AC/DC of writing.

And then you got a guy like William Gibson pioneering a whole cyberpunk genre. Dude's writing stories about some chick who's allergic to fashion. Or some drug addled popstar who uploads her consciousness to an AI on a rogue planet. He carved out his niche and kept carving. He's your King Crimson.

It's not either or, but people definitely make a choice to bias their writing one way or the other. So it's hard to compare metrics between people. Everyone has a little different priorities.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

The thing is unless someone reaches out to you and says "Hey, I'm from literotica and I bought your book." We have no idea where sales come from. I have had a couple people do that over the years, but we're talking 11 years of selling, so it's very rare.

My reply at that point is I provided you with close to 800k words for free not to mention my other 100 stories I have here for free, and you're going to complain about $2.99? Don't want to buy it, don't.

Yea, that's about what I thought.

 

[NightPorter]

2. Having a large following

You would need to graph the average number of followers for lit author's to really get a feeling for what "good" is, in an objective sense.

I guess you could do a poll on the forum if you really care.

 

[Voboy]

You should change the title and alter the first post. "Doing Well On Literotica" has zero to do with money.

When I wrote commercially, I did fine. But those stories had nothing really to do with Lit, either in my mind or by topic. I'm aware some writers here post the same stories here that they post in the marketplace, which reinforces the notion that the two spheres are separate.

In any event, when you claim that you'll modify the original post based on the feedback in the replies, and that feedback pretty uniformly agrees that your Point #1 does not belong there... well, perhaps you should remove it.

I'm doing well if my stories get the red H. Perhaps that's shallow, but there it is. Contest wins (as imperfect as I know they are) also let me know my stories are good, especially since I'm fortunate enough to have a few (instead of a fluky contest where, perhaps, I captured lightning in a bottle).

 

[StopT]

I'm doing well if my stories get the red H. Perhaps that's shallow, but there it is. Contest wins (as imperfect as I know they are) also let me know my stories are good, especially since I'm fortunate enough to have a few (instead of a fluky contest where, perhaps, I captured lightning in a bottle).

Red Hs and contest wins let you know Lit readers enjoyed your stories. Whether they're actually good or not is debatable.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

You should change the title and alter the first post. "Doing Well On Literotica" has zero to do with money.

When I wrote commercially, I did fine. But those stories had nothing really to do with Lit, either in my mind or by topic. I'm aware some writers here post the same stories here that they post in the marketplace, which reinforces the notion that the two spheres are separate.

In any event, when you claim that you'll modify the original post based on the feedback in the replies, and that feedback pretty uniformly agrees that your Point #1 does not belong there... well, perhaps you should remove it.

I'm doing well if my stories get the red H. Perhaps that's shallow, but there it is. Contest wins (as imperfect as I know they are) also let me know my stories are good, especially since I'm fortunate enough to have a few (instead of a fluky contest where, perhaps, I captured lightning in a bottle).

I disagree to an extent. There are people who post on Literotica in order to gather a readership and then open a Patreon account and tell their readers that becoming a patron gives them the right to vote and read the next chapters a month or two or three before they are published on Literotica for the public. I realize that probably isn't a sizeable group but I believe it should be covered as modest in size as it is.

This is one example of such an author.

https://www.literotica.com/stories/memberpage.php?uid=2967464&page=submissions

Their Patreon page: https://www.patreon.com/user?u=3814558

Close to 7k followers on Lit and close to 6k patrons who pay per chapter rather than monthly. Still, the guy earns some 8k bucks for a chapter of between 20 and 30k words in size. I know of at least a couple more, albeit not that much successful.

 

[Voboy]

The red Hs and contest wins let you know people enjoyed your stories. Whether they're actually good or not is debatable.

As I've said scores of times in the many, many similar threads about this kind of thing?

If I submit it, I already think it's good. A story I don't think is "good" stays on my laptop and never sees publication, and I've got more than a few of those. If I think my story is good enough to post, I don't really care whether others think it's not; I write with myself as the reader, first and foremost.

And you're putting words in my mouth, anyway. I never claimed a red H makes a story "good." I merely said it's my definition of "doing well on Literotica," and that's what the OP's asking.

 

[Voboy]

I disagree to an extent. There are people who post on Literotica in order to gather a readership and then open a Patreon account and tell their readers that becoming a patron gives them the right to vote and read the next chapters a month or two or three before they are published on Literotica for the public. I realize that probably isn't a sizeable group but I believe it should be covered as modest in size as it is.

This is one example of such an author.

https://www.literotica.com/stories/memberpage.php?uid=2967464&page=submissions

Their Patreon page: https://www.patreon.com/user?u=3814558

Close to 7k followers on Lit and close to 6k patrons who pay per chapter rather than monthly. Still, the guy earns some 8k bucks for a chapter of between 20 and 30k words in size. I know of at least a couple more, albeit not that much successful.

Sure. I'm certain you can find any number of exceptions that prove the rule. Nevertheless, you asked us for our opinions. We're pretty clearly telling you one thing, and you're disagreeing with us. That's fine in itself, but not if you're claiming you'll alter the topic based on feedback. So, again,

In any event, when you claim that you'll modify the original post based on the feedback in the replies, and that feedback pretty uniformly agrees that your Point #1 does not belong there... well, perhaps you should remove it.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

And you're putting words in my mouth, anyway. I never claimed a red H makes a story "good."

No, you said that it means they're good.

I'm doing well if my stories get the red H. Perhaps that's shallow, but there it is. Contest wins (as imperfect as I know they are) also let me know my stories are good

 

[Voboy]

No, you said that it means they're good.

A contest win isn't the same as a red H.

I do think a contest win, let alone multiple contest wins, is an indication of overall quality, yes.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

A contest win isn't the same as a red H.

No you said, a contest win also means that it's good. Which means that the Red H makes them equally good as a contest win.

 

[Voboy]

No you said, a contest win also means that it's good. Which means that the Red H makes them equally good as a contest win.

Then we're all quite fortunate I clarified, I suppose.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Sure. I'm certain you can find any number of exceptions that prove the rule. Nevertheless, you asked us for our opinions. We're pretty clearly telling you one thing, and you're disagreeing with us. That's fine in itself, but not if you're claiming you'll alter the topic based on feedback. So, again,

I am not sure they are really just exceptions. Also, are you telling me that all of you who publish on Amazon or Smashwords didn't get a single purchase from a reader who liked your Lit stories and then wanted to read more of your stuff? I understand it might be hard or even impossible to estimate the numbers but still, you are doing better commercially because of Lit.
If you think that would be more precise, I could change the #1 to "Doing well commercially because of Literotica rather than on Literotica?"

 

[Voboy]

I am not sure they are really just exceptions. Also, are you telling me that all of you who publish on Amazon or Smashwords didn't get a single purchase from a reader who liked your Lit stories and then wanted to read more of your stuff? I understand it might be hard or even impossible to estimate the numbers but still, you are doing better commercially because of Lit.
If you think that would be more precise, I could change the #1 to "Doing well commercially because of Literotica rather than on Literotica?"

Sure? I mean, it's your thread, and you're the one who seems to be looking for some sort of objective measure of something.

But, as you say, there's scant way of knowing what effect Lit has on commercial work (or vice-versa) beyond being able to make a vague claim that "it probably has some effect." Which seems to me to fly in the face of the objectivity you're seeking here.

 

[StillStunned]

If a red H means that your audience liked your story, it also means that your story achieved its goal: of making your audience happy. By definition, that's a good story.

You can argue about stories not being good because they're too short, or include the wrong kink, or lack depth and symbolism, or don't have enough character development, or don't include oblique references to Shakespeare's lesser-known works, or whatever. But as long as it serves its purpose of entertaining your audience and making them happy enough to award you the red H, it's a good story.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I'll respond to this from my own perspective of being in the marketplace for over twenty-five years overall and the erotica marketplace for nearly eighteen years.

I see "doing well commercially" as making more than you are laying out (and many self-publishers don't pay attention to what they are laying out in the process and they aren't clearing what they claim they are). This is for works one would do happily whether or not they made a profit off it. "Doing quite well" is that plus having someone else doing the production work and laying out the expenses themselves up front.

I'd add that the "laying out" here should include not just money (paper and ink, any hardware or software that one buys for the sake of writing, copyright filings, cover design, editorial services, advertising, physio bills for RSI/carpal tunnel, ...), but time.

About the only money I spend for the sake of my Literotica stories and/or marketing them is a license for Scrivener. My sales on Smashwords, meager as they are, have covered that several times over. So in that sense I'm making a profit.

But the time it takes to write is time I could've spent on some other angle. I could be doing paid editorial work, or DIYing some of the household stuff that currently I'm paying somebody to do, or stacking shelves at the supermarket; almost anything I could do with my time pays better than the writing does. (Economists would call that "opportunity cost".)

By that standard I'd have to call my writing a commercial flop. I suspect the same would be true for many authors here. Even among pro authors, I think there are many who could be making more money for less work in some other occupation if it weren't for the intangible rewards from writing.

I didn't go into writing until I was cushy financially otherwise. That kept the writing to be what I wanted to do rather than what I had to do.

Yup. Writing as an occupation just doesn't pay well enough to make it worthwhile writing stuff one doesn't enjoy writing. Most of us have to do some stuff we don't enjoy to pay the bills, but there are usually better options for that.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Sure? I mean, it's your thread, and you're the one who seems to be looking for some sort of objective measure of something.

But, as you say, there's scant way of knowing what effect Lit has on commercial work (or vice-versa) beyond being able to make a vague claim that "it probably has some effect." Which seems to me to fly in the face of the objectivity you're seeking here.

Okay, I see your point. I was actually hoping some of you could estimate the increase in Amazon and Smashwords sales due to your Literotica activities but judging by your and lovecraft's responses you seem to have no idea. I will change the #1 to include Patreon only, since judging by my checking out of the author and their presence elsewhere, those patrons are mainly coming from Lit.
Damn, you guys suck

 

[AG31]

My intention here is to set several criteria that could be used as "objective metrics", but my ambition is to have all of you invested in this and I intend to edit my original post to adjust the criteria and expand on the options as you present your arguments.

I'm not on Literotica to acquire a wide audience. Instead I'm here to talk about stuff. My favorite topic is my own writing, I'm a little embarassed to say, but it's certainly not the only thing I want to talk about. AH is where I measure whether I'm "doing well." Not on the story side. And it goes up and down and up and down. Sometimes there's a flood of stuff to talk about and sometimes it's sort of barren. The last few days have been some of the best for me.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

If a red H means that your audience liked your story, it also means that your story achieved its goal: of making your audience happy. By definition, that's a good story.

Sure, but that's your definition of a good story. There are countless Red H stories that many of us could easily pick apart as bad or even terrible prose. In fact there are more badly written Red H stories on lit than well written ones. There's nothing wrong with that but it is the reality. None of these badly written stories (Red H or not) make me happy.

I also don't necessarily write a story with the intention of making people happy. I intend to give a positive reading experience for those who might enjoy my style of work, but really I just want to tell the story that's in me that I feel should come out. I know that some people will like it and others will hate it and others still will be meh. If I want to make a bunch of people happy I would write the story that the masses want to hear, not the one inside me that needs to come out.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

My favorite topic is my own writing, I'm a little embarassed to say,

And believe me, you are in great company on this forum
I am glad you are enjoying your time here and I like your curiosity about various aspects of our writing here.

 

[Bramblethorn]

You would need to graph the average number of followers for lit author's to really get a feeling for what "good" is, in an objective sense.

Even that doesn't tell you much on its own. I'd be much more impressed by an author who's acquired 100 followers from a single story in Novels/Novellas than by one who's acquired 100 followers from posting dozens of stories in I/T or some other high-readership category.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Sure? I mean, it's your thread, and you're the one who seems to be looking for some sort of objective measure of something.

But, as you say, there's scant way of knowing what effect Lit has on commercial work (or vice-versa) beyond being able to make a vague claim that "it probably has some effect." Which seems to me to fly in the face of the objectivity you're seeking here.

You also touched on the #3 in a way. I intentionally said high scores and top list placement as those shiny letters are a bit arbitrary in my opinion (the 4.5 threshold, Laurel's liking of the story, and so on) but I am willing to be more precise there if people feel that the letters are important not in the sense of attracting the readers but as something that is a measure of "doing well"

 

[Voboy]

There are countless Red H stories that many of us could easily pick apart as bad or even terrible prose.

You could say the same thing about James Joyce or Kurt Vonnegut, and plenty have.

"Picking apart successful stories" is, I suspect, a level of subjectivity the OP is not seeking. I think saying "a red H is an indicator that a story is doing well here" is hardly a hot take. I also think you're looking to pick a fight others aren't interested in engaging in.

Feel free to pick apart that dangling participle, if you desire.

 

[Voboy]

You also touched on the #3 in a way. I intentionally said high scores and top list placement as those shiny letters are a bit arbitrary in my opinion (the 4.5 threshold, Laurel's liking of the story, and so on) but I am willing to be more precise there if people feel that the letters are important not in the sense of attracting the readers but as something that is a measure of "doing well"

The key there, I think, is your "in my opinion." It's Laurel's site, and it's her opinion that matters in light of that.

She has set a threshold for a story that deserves special recognition. We don't know why she picked that threshold, but we're all subject to it. I guess I'd say that I'm fine with letting her choose that threshold, and I don't need anything much more objective. As if the site gives it to you, anyway.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I also think you're looking to pick a fight others aren't interested in engaging in.

You're wrong. I'm not lookig to pick any fight, but you are right, others aren't interested in engaging in a fight, only you are. If you wish to prove that you;re not then you can drop this any time.