Dominant/Submissive by gender

[teknight]

For a start, learned behaviour is a big reason why humanity keeps repeating the same bad mistakes and assuming just because you are born a specific gender, that you should behave in set way or be put in your place for not doing so. Is also a good precedent for being brain washed into following the other sheep and not asking questions.

Catalina

I'll grant you that, but science hasn't fully teased out what's innate and what's learned.
And why assume people are thinkers and questioners?

 

[where]

But does one socialize into a gender/sexual identity role?

ummmm... well yes! we are brought up to think that girls act one way, boys act another and fucking someone of the same sex is bad. Why do you think there are so many sexually and gender conflicted people out there?

In the bigger picture of humanity, it makes a lot of difference!!

Catalina

I'm not sure it does. I think that over time gender and sexuality will become more fluid and alternatives to the heteronormative ideal will become more acceptable which will reduce the levels of socialisation.

you'll still get Rosco moaning about the 'effeminisation' of men.

 

[teknight]

ummmm... well yes! we are brought up to think that girls act one way, boys act another and fucking someone of the same sex is bad. Why do you think there are so many sexually and gender conflicted people out there?

I'm not sure it does. I think that over time gender and sexuality will become more fluid and alternatives to the heteronormative ideal will become more acceptable which will reduce the levels of socialisation.

you'll still get Rosco moaning about the 'effeminisation' of men.

Honestly, I've never considered it in depth.
I know there is a biological-genetic component to some of it, but, some outward behavior is taught.

 

[where]

Honestly, I've never considered it in depth.
I know there is a biological-genetic component to some of it, but, some outward behavior is taught.

if you are going to get killed, ostracised or sent to prison because of your sexual preferences, there is a good chance that you will subconsciously repress those preferences.

 

[JMohegan]

but really, does it? if you are with someone who has been socialised into a gender/sexual identity role, would you need to react to them differently to someone who might be innately within that role?

If I identify as a particular gender or sexuality am I a better person because it is innate rather than socialised? or vice versa?

I don't think it's a question of being a better person (in the character sense), but rather a matter of fit.

Implicit in the "it's no big deal" view is the notion that one could be socialized into an identity role and still be happy, or at least comfortable with oneself, even if that role is markedly different from one's innate wiring.

 

[where]

I don't think it's a question of being a better person (in the character sense), but rather a matter of fit.

Implicit in the "it's no big deal" view is the notion that one could be socialized into an identity role and still be happy, or at least comfortable with oneself, even if that role is markedly different from one's innate wiring.

the 'better person' comment was a bit tongue in cheek. but I don't know that I would have a problem 'fitting' with someone if they were innately male/female/TG or gay/straight/bi/queer or socialised into it?

and I think that a great many of us are socialised into roles and are comfortable with it. But like you say, it's when the socialised role is very different from the innate one that there are problems.

 

[Stella_Omega]

but really, does it? if you are with someone who has been socialised into a gender/sexual identity role, would you need to react to them differently to someone who might be innately within that role?

It's the other way around; if someone is with me, they need to react differently to me than they would to other people who have boobs on their chest.

If I identify as a particular gender or sexuality am I a better person because it is innate rather than socialised? or vice versa?

A better person??????

No. There is nothing about being differently gendered that makes someone a saint, for crissake.

But you knew that, too

 

[where]

It's the other way around; if someone is with me, they need to react differently to me than they would to other people who have boobs on their chest.

A better person??????

No. There is nothing about being differently gendered that makes someone a saint, for crissake.

But you knew that, too

or maybe I'd just react to you as a fellow hot person

 

[Stella_Omega]

or maybe I'd just react to you as a fellow hot person

yeah, but you're special.

 

[where]

yeah, but you're special.

this is true. I'm working on becoming more special

 

[catalina_francisco]

if you are going to get killed, ostracised or sent to prison because of your sexual preferences, there is a good chance that you will subconsciously repress those preferences.

Some people will, but there are others who will not...hence there is now a lot more information and visibility to the wide variety of sexual preferences and gender roles, and a good many people willing to openly and publicly own it no matter the consequences. I for one risked a university degree and career, not to mention some pretty heavy threats from people with power, to stand up for what I believed was fair and a right...and succeeded where many others had failed, earned a very positive reputation in places I had never even been, recceived apologies from some who had tried to stand in my way, and fortunately did not suffer any of the consequences I was threatened with.

Catalina

 

[Stella_Omega]

You can thank these people for some of that reduced threat;

http://www.afterstonewall.com/1/images/press/stonewall_militants.jpg

 

[ammre]

Oh man, I haven't poked into these forums in a while but the fact that there's SEVERAL people discussing the structure and agency behind gender dynamics and sexual power is WAY AWESOME.

It will almost always be a messy looping debate, but the fact that no one has come in going "ZOMG! DUDES RULE AND ARE INHERENTLY DOMINATE" is making me crazy happy right now.