Don't Expect Unions to be Back

[RobDownSouth]

When wages rise, prices rise.

It's pretty much a zero-sum game.

previously debunked: https://forum.literotica.com/threads/the-economically-clueless.1553321/page-4#post-94279956

 

[Champakian]

Much ado about nothing.

 

[The_Trouvere]

There might be an income gap (the second example this morning that I've run across
of taking a stat out of context to make a specious point) but the average citizen of the
United States enjoys a steady increase in his/her(/its) standard of living and really has
nothing to complain about, but does enjoy a lot more leisure time in which to do it....

The following assertions are not documented. Nevertheless, they are taken from an article appearing int the 2021 summer edition of Modern Age, a magazine calling itself "A Conservative Review."

--------

Modern Age is an American conservative academic quarterly journal, founded in 1957 by Russell Kirk in close collaboration with Henry Regnery. Originally published independently in Chicago, in 1976 ownership was transferred to the Intercollegiate Studies Institute...

With its founding Kirk hoped for "a dignified forum for reflective, traditionalist conservatism" and the magazine has remained one of the voices of intellectual, small-"c" conservatism to the present day...

Modern Age has been described by the historian George H. Nash as "the principal quarterly of the intellectual right."

--------

Are You Better Off Than You Were Forty Years Ago?​

Oren Cass | Jul 19, 2021

And while thirty weeks of the median male wage were sufficient to provide housing, healthcare, education, and transportation for a family of four in the mid-1980s, by 2018 a full year’s wages would not get the job done.

https://isi.org/modern-age/humane-economy-a-symposium/#OrenCass

 

[The_Trouvere]

When wages rise, prices rise.

Our merchants and master manufacturers complain much of the bad effects of high wages in raising the price, and thereby lessening the sale of their goods both at home and abroad. They say nothing concerning the bad effects of high profits. They are silent with regard to the pernicious effects of their own gains. They complain only of those of other people.

Adam Smith, from Wealth of Nations, Chapter IX, "On the Profits of Stock"

 

[Champakian]

Adam Smith was a long time ago.
He was describing the effects of paradigm change.

The previous post is full of sound and fury signifying nothing.
Take that last little bit, it does not reflect trends in consumerism and tastes.
It's not that one income could no longer cover the basics, but people started to want more...

 

[The_Trouvere]

Adam Smith was a long time ago.
He was describing the effects of paradigm change.

The previous post is full of sound and fury signifying nothing.
Take that last little bit, it does not reflect trends in consumerism and tastes.
It's not that one income could no longer cover the basics, but people started to want more...

What Adam Smith wrote about business men complaining about the inflationary effects of high wages, while ignoring the inflationary effects of their high profits is as true now as when he wrote it during the late eighteenth century in a book reactionaries revere but seldom read.

 

[pecksniff]

Labor unions are necessary to reverse the growing income gap.

Just because we need something for that purpose doesn't mean we're going to get it. The people on the top side of that gap don't want anything of the kind to happen, and they're the ones with all the political clout.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Well chiming in here for a moment "fair" is a relative thing and does not by definition mean equal. I've charted before that raising wages while logically should cause inflation it really doesn't.

When it comes to CEOs making over 300% of what their average employee does that's theft. Outside some rare cases nobody is worth 300% more than most workers. Very very few of them are that smart, they were born "better". It reminds me of when Romney said if you're unhappy with your work get a loan from your parents to start your own business. That is such right wing nonsense that I genuinely wish that CEOs, especially the lesser known ones are required to come do the actual work at least once a week every year to see what things are actually like on the ground floor.

 

[anarchoMando]

What Adam Smith wrote about business men complaining about the inflationary effects of high wages, while ignoring the inflationary effects of their high profits is as true now as when he wrote it during the late eighteenth century in a book reactionaries revere but seldom read.

And this is all a reason of capitalism

 

[DimmuBurger]

No, they exist by finding niches where big biz doesn't entirely dominate yet.

Or doesn't compete because it's just not big or available enough for their interest.

They can't do it because for their size bidnizz a particular market just isn't big or available enough. Doesn't mean the market isn't there.

It's why small farms don't do soy/wheat/corn/taters n' onions and the uber-aggies don't do rare heirloom collections, specialty varieties and crafty value added products from those specialty crops.

A mom-and-pop restaurant can hold out in the presence of franchised competitors, but a mom-and-pop grocery store cannot. Economies of scale -- the supermarket can offer lower prices, even if the service is more impersonal.

And yet mom and pop grocers, butchers and farmers markets as well as high end big chains are doing better than ever before.

Budwiser and Coors didn't slow the craft/micro-brew industry down, they're killing it right now.

Roto-Rooter doesn't stop my independent master plumbing and water well drilling neighbor and his crews from making DAMN good money.

Just because big bidnizz is servicing the masses doesn't make the market for better or alternative products/services goes away.

 

[DimmuBurger]

When it comes to CEOs making over 300% of what their average employee does that's theft.

No, it's not.

It's "unfair" in your subjective opinion.

Outside some rare cases nobody is worth 300% more than most workers.

Again. says who?

The market says otherwise in some cases.

And you yourself have no doubt supported it by consuming it.

 

[DimmuBurger]

And this is all a reason of capitalism

No, envy.

Capitalism is just free commerce and private property.

The "inflationary effects of their high profits".... that rage and hate success stirs in a lot of folks when someone else is better at that game than them?? That's good old fashioned envy and basic monkey rage.

 

[Sean Renaud]

No, it's not.

It's "unfair" in your subjective opinion.



Again. says who?

The market says otherwise in some cases.

And you yourself have no doubt supported it by consuming it.

If that unfair in a subjective way. Nobody is attacking Ukraine, Ukraine doesn't exist. I've never been there. This is just a very, very long movie.

Literally everyone but lunatics say that. No, the market NEVER demands that. Its that people don't have any power to defend themselves against predators because the Right HATES freedom to assemble. They have all my life. I've always wondered how people can be THAT full of hate.

You make it sound like we have a whole lot of choices in "supporting it" I very rarely do fast food (and I honestly never hear anything about McDonalds CEOs so they probably don't go to the same extreme.) There are basically two computers in the world that you can be reasonably sure will run whatever other stuff you got. So that boils down to if I want to support whoever took over for Jobs or Gates.

I would lose SO much money in gas getting to anyplace that I could purchase the things that I need and occasionally want. So not supporting big box stores isn't really not a choice. I don't even care that they are rich anyhow. I care that the average American is living paycheck to paycheck and we have mother fuckers going to space for the lulz. And someone did the math once and both Bezos and Musk could literally give every one of their direct employees a million dollars and the only it would mean is might take until 2025 not the end of this year.

 

[DimmuBurger]

If that unfair in a subjective way. Nobody is attacking Ukraine, Ukraine doesn't exist. I've never been there. This is just a very, very long movie.

It's subjective.

You equate equity with "fair" because lefty. You see it as unfair because CEO has so much more!! The inequity bothers you.

Here is the right wing perspective and why "fair" in this case is totally subjective...

So long as the employee/contractor got every penny and or benefit they were owed in accordance with their terms of employment and or their contract??? THAT is what's fair.

IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW MUCH CEO MAKES!!

No, the market NEVER demands that.

No, it supports it... every time you hand your money over to them, you're supporting it.

You make it sound like we have a whole lot of choices in "supporting it" I very rarely do fast food (and I honestly never hear anything about McDonalds CEOs so they probably don't go to the same extreme.) There are basically two computers in the world that you can be reasonably sure will run whatever other stuff you got. So that boils down to if I want to support whoever took over for Jobs or Gates.

You do, lot's of people don't participate to one degree or another.

Ever met one of these backwater homesteading hippies out there in CA?? There is a rather sizeable community in the woods where Humboldt, Trinity and Mendo county all come together. They actively choose not to support it.

There are others.

But yea, if you want to be plugged into the modern tech life and pop culture you support it ...... with every dollar, click or second of attention you give them.

I would lose SO much money in gas getting to anyplace that I could purchase the things that I need and occasionally want. So not supporting big box stores isn't really not a choice.

Your consumerism is.... you want convenient luxury/frivolous shit for a good price and you're willing to give mega-corp your money to get it.

Hey, I do too!! But I don't have a problem with how much Bezos has.... as long as Amazon delivers the goods/services as advertised I'm good with giving Bezos my money. The guy made me a fucking fortune over the covid lockdowns... I don't care if he has a trillion bucks and is worth 20 trillion more, his wealth doesn't bother me at all.

I don't even care that they are rich anyhow. I care that the average American is living paycheck to paycheck and we have mother fuckers going to space for the lulz.

Yes you have a problem with inequity. And you want to hose the rich to fix it right??

Take from Bezos because you don't think he should spend money on going to space.... but how much money have you given to Amazon??

And someone did the math once and both Bezos and Musk could literally give every one of their direct employees a million dollars and the only it would mean is might take until 2025 not the end of this year.

Again... equity focused, something I don't value at all because I'm not a lefty. I don't care if they could give them all a billion.

Why should they??

The employees agreed to work for x dollars and benefits, they get it, that's fair.

Musk and Bezos don't owe them any more than what they agreed to.

 

[Sean Renaud]

I don't want equity, no one really wants that. I don't know why you lie so hard.

 

[DimmuBurger]

I don't want equity, no one really wants that. I don't know why you lie so hard.

You literally just made a giant post about how much of a problem inequity is for you.

Now you claim to not want equity??

You don't think CEO making 300x or more the average workers pay is theft anymore?? You don't support wealth taxes on the rich??? You don't support UHC? Student debt forgiveness?? Social welfare programs??

You're anti-affirmative action now???

I could go on with example after example of your focus on equity both economic and social.....it's what makes you a lefty.

I'm not the one who is lying here.

 

[Sean Renaud]

When wages rise, prices rise.

This is bullshit plain and simple. Obviously ignore anything after 2021, economists aren't fucking psychic. They get it right more often than not but its like predicting the weather sometimes a storm just decides for no fucking reason to go in a different direction or its going so fast that it overshoots you specifically someone got it. Or it rains all night and speaking personally if it want to rain from when I get home to when I need to leave power to it. One a slight side not if I believed in gods I'd swear they know I hate rain and will literally call off work if it's raining. Fuck them. Usually it gives me time to get where I'm going and get back.
https://www.thebalance.com/u-s-inflation-rate-history-by-year-and-forecast-3306093
If you even skim the article and there is a table. Inflation rates are generally between two and four. When it rises above or below you can almost always chart it to some event. OPEC, wars, just the cycle.

https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/minimum-wage/history/chart

The chart stops at 2009 since thats the last time we raised the minimum wage. There doesn't even seem to be a correlation between wage increases and inflation let alone causation. It just doesn't work like that. I really wish people would spend a few minutes on Google or whatever search engine you like because there are plenty of things that are counter intuitive in life.

 

[Sean Renaud]

You literally just made a giant post about how much of a problem inequity is for you.

Now you claim to not want equity??

You don't think CEO making 300x or more the average workers pay is theft anymore?? You don't support wealth taxes on the rich??? You don't support UHC? Student debt forgiveness?? Social welfare programs??

You're anti-affirmative action now???

I could go on with example after example of your focus on equity both economic and social.....it's what makes you a lefty.

I'm not the one who is lying here.

Nobody wants equity. We want a bigger slice of the pie.

A CEO making 300x the average worker is either theft or slavery take your pick doesn't matter.

Affirmative action is needed for minorities and women.

Yes you are the one who is lying or at least pretending history is something that didn't happen and in some cases is STILL happening.

 

[anarchoMando]

No, envy.

Capitalism is just free commerce and private property.

The "inflationary effects of their high profits".... that rage and hate success stirs in a lot of folks when someone else is better at that game than them?? That's good old fashioned envy and basic monkey rage.

Capitalism is a corporate control of the means of production and distribution (capital goods)



Market-based systems are different thing entirely

 

[Sh1ne0n67]

There's a reason why the janitor doesn't run the company and why he gets paid what he does.


It's a fair as life ever gets.

 

[DimmuBurger]

Capitalism is a corporate control of the means of production and distribution (capital goods)

I just said that, private property and commerce.

Market-based systems are different thing entirely

No it's not, free market system is one of the key defining features of capitalism.

capitalism​

cap·i·tal·ism | \ ˈka-pə-tə-ˌliz-əm , ˈkap-tə- \

Definition of capitalism​

: an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/capitalism

 

[anarchoMando]

Definition of capitalism

: an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free marke

the private ownership of capital goods



Capital goods
The means of production and distribution


Shouldn't the workers socially own the means of production?

They do most of the work!