Duke it out thread

[Scuttle Buttin']

Instead of answering a simple yes or no question, you resort to ad hominem attacks. Okay.

This leads me to believe you don't see it as racist. Allow me to show you that it is.

The Mets, a baseball team in New York, had an incident recently where their pitching coach apologized for calling someone a 'Chinaman' (someone who was not, by the way, Chinese but Japanese), but he did so in front of a reporter for the Wall Street Journal who is, himself, Chinese. This was his take on it:

Here’s the aforementioned reporter, Woo:

I didn’t say anything, but I was startled. As a 27-year-old Chinese American who grew up in San Francisco, I couldn’t remember the last time I heard the term “Chinaman,” a derogatory word originally given by white Americans to Chinese immigrants in the 19th century.

If you follow that link, it will take you to a post written by Woo on the Wall Street Journal page, which contains the following passages:

It surprised me that the 61-year-old Warthen, who pitched in the major leagues in the 1970s before starting his coaching career, would use that word at all -– and so casually. Was he saying that he wanted to apologize for saying “Chinaman” only because he’d said it to a man of Japanese, rather than Chinese, descent? Did he think that the word itself was OK to use—or that it was acceptable material for jokes?

I’ve been around pro athletes long enough to know that locker rooms aren’t exactly bastions of maturity. Many of my colleagues have heard worse. Still, Warthen had used the term in front of two people who had every reason to be offended. And he did so in a casual way in a work environment -– one where he holds a position of power. I didn’t want to be complicit in tolerating the use of a slur that should have been retired long ago.

And then this, from the Mets General Manager:

“On behalf of the entire organization, I apologize for the insensitive remarks made by of one of our staff members. The remarks were offensive and inappropriate and the organization is very sorry,” added Alderson.

Wouldn't it be so much easier for you to say, "I didn't realize it was an offensive term, and I'll be sure not to use it in the future" than to do all of this? Are you really saying all of this because you want to defend your use of a racist term?

 

[prettyserpentine]

Why don't you just acknowledge that it's an offensive, archaic term. And ask others in the thread to do the same.

 

[Scuttle Buttin']

Why don't you just acknowledge that it's an offensive, archaic term. And ask others in the thread to do the same.

This seems so much easier.



An entire peak in Alberta, Canada was renamed because it used to be called 'Chinaman's Peak' and the local Chinese community was offended by it:

The western province of Alberta renamed a towering peak in the Rocky Mountains today after criticism that its century-old former name was racist.

Alberta officials said that Chinaman's Peak, near Banff National Park, would now be known as Ha Ling Peak, in honor of a railroad laborer who scaled its 8,793-foot-high summit in 1896 to win a $50 bet.

Last year, Alberta bowed to pressure from the province's large Chinese community and agreed to accept suggestions for a new name.

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/07/09/w...s-alberta-s-new-name-for-peak-in-rockies.html

 

[cgraven]

I need no lecture from you on racism sir for I have lived with it all my life. I am Wabanaki and I have had to put up with all kind of slurs and accusations. When whites like Major Robert Rogers kills three warrior and thirty old men, women and children is a great victory and yet when the great confederacy of the High Plains defeat Custer at the Grease Grass it’s a savage massacre.

I have had to endure sanctimonious do gooders who are always so politically correct with their Native Americans, their First peoples as they religious avoid that racial slur Indian. Yet as they mouth the politically correct term of the day and smile so parentally at you, you see in their eyes the same old prejudice they have always held but their conscious is clear because they have used the acceptable term, that is presently in vogue.

I am not a Indian, Native American, or ] First peoples I am Wabanaki of the Bear Clan and I have no need for your lectures on racism for I have lived with it. It is not the word that cuts but the hypocrite that hides behind the political correct term of theday sir while maintaining their own deeply held prejudice.

I need no lectures or guidence from you.

What you have all missed is the great respect and difference given to the character Phoo Ming in the thread.

 

[Scuttle Buttin']

I see we have returned to the ad hominem attacks instead of, again, actually addressing anything I said. I don't know why you continue to do this.

Given everything you've just thrown at me, I think the only thing to do is repeat your own words to you:

And what do you know of me Sir?

Please tell me what 'deeply held prejudice' I have, since you seem to know so much about them.

You talk of the racism you have experienced. I am sorry that you have. It is wrong that you have, unquestionably.

Shouldn't that, then, make you more sensitive to the use of racial slurs, and not less? Do you think the Chinese people in Alberta that got the name of a geographical location changed experienced no racism? Do you think Stu Woo, the WSJ reporter who overheard the use of the term 'Chinaman' has experienced no racism?

Why do you use the racism you have personally experienced to defend using a term that is racist but directed at a different group of people?

I truly don't care what respect you give to a fictional character, you are using a word that demeans actual people. That is wrong.

 

[Scuttle Buttin']

I'm not going in the Inn, because it's pointless to interrupt whatever is going on in there. And I'm sure my intrusion would be happily received.

Still.

Yes, I saw the 'discussion' re: certain terminology - that makes me just as guilty I suppose. I think the historical/fictional element has been missed here; context is everything!

*hugs Cg*

My evening with the man of politically correct Asian descent was most memorable Cg ...

*ggls mischievously*

And I don't believe that he has been presented in any type of derogatory light despite sensitivities re: terminology. I for one have a penchant for demanding exotic older men ... and if it is racist to declare that attraction, then I can only say ... pfffttttt ...

This is wrong on a few levels.

First, let's talk about context. I already addressed this with Raven, so I'll just repost what I already said:

Context matters, sure. Referring to someone, casually and repeatedly, as 'Chinaman' is not a context that excuses use of the term, however. Neither is claiming that the setting for the thread is decades ago in China, for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that conversation happens within there that never would've happened in post-WWI China, it happens in English, and that I'd happily take a wager that the vast, overwhelming majority of 'people' in there aren't Chinese.

If all of those things that can be freely, happily, easily overlooked, then I think not referring to someone as 'Chinaman' to get the setting correct won't break the mystique.

.......

Let me ask you, Raven: If 'nigger' or 'kike' or 'chink' or 'wetback' had been used instead of 'Chinaman,' would you be saying all of this? Are you comfortable with those terms being used freely, openly, and repeatedly? If not, then why should another racial slur warrant this kind of defense from you?

........

Let me ask you, again, Raven: If I were to create a thread in here and set it on a Georgia plantation 1840, would you sit idly by while I threw the n-word around freely, accepting the explanation that it was acceptable in the time period I set my thread in and I'm only trying to maintain the setting? I sincerely hope not.

The context argument is a nonstarter.

If you don't believe me, I would invite you to find a group of young black men, stroll up to them, and greet them with a happy 'What's up, my nigga's?'

When they get offended, just politely explain that they missed the context, and you were simply trying to be friendly and relate to them. I think we both know they'll understand, right?


With regard to being attracted to a certain race, I don't believe that is racist, no. I don't recall anyone saying it was, either.

Calling them a 'Chinaman,' however, is.

 

[cgraven]

You just don’t get it Scuttle Buttin' you feel so self righteous so pure.

Literotica is a site dedicated to writing to stories that are predominantly erotic in nature. Some stories have historical settings and you would have writers use the political correct term of the day. I here no hue and cry when a writer refers to Catholics as Papist if the thread is Meadville or Caviler in setting, nor if Protestants are referred to as heretics both terms highly offensive to their respective groups when taken out of context. Now of course that would not be racist, but simply bigotry. Nor have I seen a hue and cry when all Muslims are referred to as infidels if the story is set during the Crusades.

You took one post from a thread that has been running here at Lit for 13 years and you quoted Chinaman where China-man was written. One quote referring to a well established and respected Character and a relationship he has had for a very long time with another writer in the thread. You view it as racist that is your view. When I wrote it there was no intention of a racial slur you are the one that ascribed that effete to me, thinly veiled, but in a public thread.

This is the last I have to say on the matter. I am done with it Those that know me , know your accusation that I am a racist is not true. Those that do not know me will believe what they choose.

 

[prettyserpentine]

Jesus Christ, CG, stop blaming him entirely for it. He wasn't the only one who took offense, if you read the original issue there were a few people. If you're going to take it out on him, then at least have the gumption to take it out on everybody who was involved instead of singling one out.

A hyphen doesn't make it any less racist.

How difficult is it for you and any other sarcastic, flippant "writers" in the thread to just accept that it caused offence, and to say you're sorry for that offence. Nobody was named in particular by Scuttle.

Get over yourselves. Just because you've been here for thirteen years doesn't make you any better than the rest of us.

 

[cgraven]

TRUE, Miss Serpentine.

 

[prettyserpentine]

TRUE, Miss Serpentine.

Which part?

 

[cgraven]

I am no better than anyone else here at Lit.

 

[prettyserpentine]

And what about the rest of it?

 

[cgraven]

Well do you believe I am a racist?

 

[Scuttle Buttin']

You have yet to acknowledge a single thing I've written beyond my first post on this subject, yesterday.

I have shown you actual Chinese people that refer to the term as 'a slur that should have been retired long ago,' and you ignored it. I have shown you the name of a geographical location that was changed because of the protests of actual Chinese people because the term is derogatory, and you ignored it. These are not people with 'deeply held prejudice' who are just trying to be 'political correct,' as you have baselessly accused me of being. These are the people that are actually effected by the term you continue to defend the use of... and you simply don't care.

It seems all too evident at this point that it is more important for you to be able to use a term than to realize it is derogatory and simply pick another word to use. And that is very sad indeed. However nice people may find you, I think that says more than you realize about your character (and I'm not referring to a fictional person you created).

Saying it was 'one post' is a flat out lie, and is quite easily shown as such.

A bit like a wolf then Cg ... or a demanding China man ..

*ggls*

She nods as he speaks of their story, his kiss once more reminding her that the reality is so much more than fiction.

I long to have Missy Mari back in my Domain.

Her eyes are drawn to the kitchens and the prospect of Phoo Ming's quarters beyond ...

"If you wish it, perhaps I will visit some time soon?
But it is late and RW calls ... "

She tells the China man demurely.

Eyes widen at the China Man's unexpected response to her plea for postponement of the inevitable ... as ever there is no stopping Phoo Ming when his mind is set.

Night Mari, Nite Phoo Mingish

I call as the ancient China-man carries the blushing Miss away for a night she is sure to remember.

You don't need saving do you Mari

(RW Calls, apologies )

*With a blush she takes her coffee and heads back towards the kitchens in an attempt to retrieve her clothes and make herself decent for the day ... assuming the China Man will permit her of course.*

That's five right there, all found in a minute and a half.

I don't care how long a thread has been running, it does not take away the racism in a term used within it. That's a weird non sequitur.

Whether written 'Chinaman,' 'China Man,' or 'China-man,' the term is still quite clearly the same. Throwing a random hyphen occasionally into the middle of a slur does not take away the fact that it is a slur.

However respected a character may be does not take away from the fact that you are referring to him using a term that is derogatory to actual living people. None of these are defenses for casually tossing around a racial slur like you both did.


Every time you try this context argument, it falls flat on it's face.

If the context of the Inn is so vitally important that you simply must use a racial slur, then you should be in there policing the topics of conversation as well. When people mention the 'RW,' why do you not stare at them in confusion? 'RW' wouldn't mean anything to someone in a Inn in China just after WWI. When people, you included, are all speaking English, why is there no confusion? The coffee flows freely there, but it would seem more coffee drank in the Inn than all of the rest of China combined today, and certainly at the time period you have set it in.

The point is that these things present no challenge to your setting, yet you are asking people to accept that not referring to someone as 'Chinaman' would somehow damage the aura of the place. This is clearly nonsense. If people can refer to the 'RW' and drink coffee like they're modern westerners and speak in English, there is no damage that will be done to your thread or what goes on within it by not using a racial slur when referring to someone.

And, as an added bonus, maybe all people will feel welcome, as you claim to be your goal, when they see casual racism isn't tolerated.

I have yet to see it explained why that would be a bad thing.




Lastly, and again we're back at you just making shit up about me, at no point do I think I'm 'so self righteous so pure'[sic]. It's something I struggle with constantly. I have a thread on this site that deals some with race, and I've struggled with posts in it precisely because I don't want to be racist in my approach. I've talked to at least three different people here about that very thing.

But I am also trying to be self-aware, and to police myself. There has been absolutely none of that here today from you.

 

[prettyserpentine]

Well do you believe I am a racist?

As I stated in the PM you sent me, you were not called a racist. The term that was used, not primarily by you, I might add, is racist.

I am hoping it was merely the writer's ignorance or their inability to understand political correctness that caused this hopefully temporary lapse in judgement.

 

[Scuttle Buttin']

I forgot to add:

As I said yesterday, and I can pull the quote for you if you'd like, when I first saw the term used I thought it was a typo, mostly because who still uses that term today? It was only when I saw it used again, and again, and again, that I realized it was something being used deliberately, and it made me angry.

 

[Scuttle Buttin']

Well do you believe I am a racist?

The great irony of this is that, between the two of us, you are the one that said I have 'deeply held prejudice,' and I have said:

No one said he was a racist.

But the term, clearly, is.

I have no idea if you're a racist or not.

I know that you were using a term that is, and now seem to be defending the use of that term. I know that doing so isn't helping you look not racist.

But as for whether or not you are.. beats me. That's why you don't see me accusing you of having 'deeply held prejudice.'

 

[Light Ice]

And to show how wrong that was, you go into a different Lounge thread and say I called you a racist, without PMing me or referring to me directly.

Okay.

But even in this, you are wrong on two points.

First, I never said you were racist. The term you were/are using is racist though, yes. You don't even seem to deny this, but instead just try to hide behind the setting of a thread that is never strictly followed to begin with. That is no kind of defense at all. It does not remove the derogatory nature of the term. If you truly want all to be welcome at the Inn, I would think you would want to avoid using terms that an entire racial group (and, indeed, a term used to describe people of Asian descent when their specific race was not apparent, which may be even worse) finds offensive. But maybe I'm wrong about you wanting it to be welcoming to all.

Second, you'll note that I was not the one that mentioned you specifically, and in fact I made it clear that you weren't even the first person I saw use the term. Maybe you missed that, and so I'm saying it here again for your benefit.

For you to sit here and play the victim card when you are the one using a racial slur is astounding, however. You are not the victim. You are not the one who has been slandered.

I believe I was the one who focused the conversation on cgraven - mistakenly focusing SB's general statement about the racial insensitivity of the term chinaman as something directed passively to cgraven.

I was wrong.

And, furthermore, I don't agree with the way the term's use has been defended. Period appropriate, or not, the use of the word nigger would and shouldn't be tolerated. The racial term chinaman is every bit as offensive.

 

[Miss_Vivi]

Did Li just agree with Sb? I'm not the only one who saw that right?

 

[Light Ice]

Did Li just agree with Sb? I'm not the only one who saw that right?

You missed the public apology, also. Which is, I think, the more important part.

 

[Light Ice]

Did Li just agree with Sb? I'm not the only one who saw that right?

Further, he is right.