Extra Extra...

[zydrate]

runs in and hugs Minxy then runs back out

 

[monique_minx]

There is a dramatic difference between disagreeing with someone and expressing that and intentionally hurting someone. One involves discussion and the other involves histrionics and selfishness. Attempting to suggest they are the same thing is tragically foolish.

I never suggested anything of the kind.
My intention was to show that we hurt the ones we love the most and we will always do that, it's human nature.

If you fight with your lover, whoever he or she may be, your only goal in that moment is to see them hurt, make them cry, make them wrong. Forget about what's right or common sense and what happens afterward because it doesn't factor.

In the heat of the moment, you just want to see a tear, you don't really know why and it doesn't really matter. You don't think of backfire and you push back all that overwhelming guilt because you know exactly what buttons to press that will hurt the most and when you do push them and you will, that guilt comes up and bites you but you knock it back. For the moment.

It doesn't matter how much it hurts them, you want it to hurt them because you want to know that you mean enough to them when you're fighting that you can still actually hurt them. Love is pain.

With Callum, I can count on one hand the amount of times I EVER went for those buttons in the years I knew him. While we were together, I only ever did it just once and he pushed my own right back...it hurt, I never counted on the return fire...and we both felt so bad about it that we were silent together for a full five minutes, just staring at each other dumbfounded. I had never felt so bad for saying something like that before, not to anyone, not like I did with him.

And then? I shed the first tear, the only tear, he won and it didn't matter. He never said he was sorry, I never said it, didn't have to say it. He just grabbed me and kissed me and sorry was obsolete.

Still makes me smile. Love and hate go hand in hand.
For me, they always will.

runs in and hugs Minxy then runs back out

*Hugs quickly and gasps, groping her bottom as she runs out. I call*

Miss Zydrate! Get your butt back here woman!

 

[Light Ice]

Minx, you're horrendously incorrect if you feel that love exists in any relationship where either party regularly intends to hurt the other simply to prove a point or satisfy their own selfish urges. The implications of that statement, alone, are horrendously tragic and terribly insightful.

I legitimately pity you.

Arguments and disagreements are inherently natural in relationships. Two people, partners or otherwise, are still at their very heart of hearts different individuals and with that comes the wide and invariable scope of differing opinions and values.

But a healthy relationship, particularly a loving one, is defined by the ability of those two people to express those differences with the feelings of their partner in mind. Discussions, even arguments, are always governed by the over-arching desire to remain functional as a partnership. The goal may be to seek validation, it might be to prove a point, but in the end it's inevitably to bridge the divide separating the pair in that given moment.

It is not, and should not ever be, to maliciously wound the other partner to satisfy your own hurts. That's an inherently selfish act and one that is -only- damaging to a relationship. It communicates to the other person that while you are hurt, or wounded, you are incapable or unwilling to consider their feelings. That erodes trust and builds resentment.

A worthy goal in any disagreement is for both parties in the relationship to understand that the points they are attempting to make are secondary to the process of making them. Functioning as a partnership, through respect and honest dialogue, are paramount to making yourself heard. In a truly loving relationship someone shouldn't ever feel the need to put their own feelings so maliciously infront of their partners because a trust should exist that their points, however debated, have been heard and will be considered.

Minx, what you've just attempted to assert to me is probably the most tragic thing I've ever read from you.

I would never, ever, tolerate a woman that in the heat of the moment put malice and spite into our relationship simply to make a point. I'd never tolerate a relationship where respect and mutual empathy could not sustain in the midst of an argument. I would absolutely never wish that unhealthy kind of partnership on anyone, even those that I feel bring it on themselves.

I do not believe you can love someone, truly love someone, if you consistently make an attempt to wound them in order to prove a point. I certainly do not believe love exists in a relationship where the two parties involved cannot show empathy for one another, let alone respect, throughout a tense discussion are argument. And I absolutely do not believe that anyone who accepts spite, malice, and that level of selfishness have any business being in a committed relationship with anyone.

ETA: What you've described, Minx, sounds to me like Co-Dependence. It's a remarkably unhealthy state of being and one that is not infrequently mistaken as love. In all of your descriptions of Callum and your relationship with him, those ones that you've put up here, absolutely NOTHING has stood out to me as healthy or typical of romance. It sounds to me like Co-Dependency. The hurts you suffered throughout the experience (again as you've dictated here and I've managed to read) seem consistent with that as well.

 

[monique_minx]

Minx, you're horrendously incorrect if you feel that love exists in any relationship where either party regularly intends to hurt the other simply to prove a point or satisfy their own selfish urges. The implications of that statement, alone, are horrendously tragic and terribly insightful.

Where did I say that it was regular?

I legitimately pity you.

Oh, please don't. I would have to hurt you if you did.

Arguments and disagreements are inherently natural in relationships. Two people, partners or otherwise, are still at their very heart of hearts different individuals and with that comes the wide and invariable scope of differing opinions and values.

But a healthy relationship, particularly a loving one, is defined by the ability of those two people to express those differences with the feelings of their partner in mind. Discussions, even arguments, are always governed by the over-arching desire to remain functional as a partnership. The goal may be to seek validation, it might be to prove a point, but in the end it's inevitably to bridge the divide separating the pair in that given moment.

It is not, and should not ever be, to maliciously wound the other partner to satisfy your own hurts. That's an inherently selfish act and one that is -only- damaging to a relationship. It communicates to the other person that while you are hurt, or wounded, you are incapable or unwilling to consider their feelings. That erodes trust and builds resentment.

A worthy goal in any disagreement is for both parties in the relationship to understand that the points they are attempting to make are secondary to the process of making them. Functioning as a partnership, through respect and honest dialogue, are paramount to making yourself heard. In a truly loving relationship someone shouldn't ever feel the need to put their own feelings so maliciously infront of their partners because a trust should exist that their points, however debated, have been heard and will be considered.

Blah, blah, blah...sorry, what? Tell my fucking sisters that one and they'd laugh in your face! Seriously! Anger needs release and I don't care how much self control you have, the people in your life that know you well enough know how to push you past the point of all control and I'm sorry but it's far better to be verbal about it than physical.

My sister Charlotte can push me to the point of choking her to death, quite literally! That is how much of a cunt she can be when she wants to really push my buttons and hurt me. I haven't killed her but that doesn't mean that in the heat of the moment the intent isn't fully there. Because it is.

People are selfish. Doesn't matter how giving you are, when it comes to your own feelings and emotions? You're selfish. You cry, you yell and you don't always do it to the person deserving of it but if you don't do it? I pity the person you kill when you explode.

Minx, what you've just attempted to assert to me is probably the most tragic thing I've ever read from you.

Nah, I reckon I can definitely top that...fucking easily.

I would never, ever, tolerate a woman that in the heat of the moment put malice and spite into our relationship simply to make a point. I'd never tolerate a relationship where respect and mutual empathy could not sustain in the midst of an argument. I would absolutely never wish that unhealthy kind of partnership on anyone, even those that I feel bring it on themselves.

You're sure you're not a virgin?
Or a sorcerer?
Cause surely, you must have made the perfect plastic Stepford girlfriend if she's never bitten your head off for something.

I do not believe you can love someone, truly love someone, if you consistently make an attempt to wound them in order to prove a point. I certainly do not believe love exists in a relationship where the two parties involved cannot show empathy for one another, let alone respect, throughout a tense discussion are argument. And I absolutely do not believe that anyone who accepts spite, malice, and that level of selfishness have any business being in a committed relationship with anyone.

Again, I never said this.

ETA: What you've described, Minx, sounds to me like Co-Dependence. It's a remarkably unhealthy state of being and one that is not infrequently mistaken as love. In all of your descriptions of Callum and your relationship with him, those ones that you've put up here, absolutely NOTHING has stood out to me as healthy or typical of romance. It sounds to me like Co-Dependency. The hurts you suffered throughout the experience (again as you've dictated here and I've managed to read) seem consistent with that as well.

BAHAHAHAHA!!

Co-dependence?! Okay, you're gonna have to explain this one a bit better, I gotta hear this!

 

[yeishia]

I thought you might like this poem Minx


Sonnet LXVI: I Do Not Love You Except Because I Love You

I do not love you except because I love you;
I go from loving to not loving you,
From waiting to not waiting for you
My heart moves from cold to fire.

I love you only because it's you the one I love;
I hate you deeply, and hating you
Bend to you, and the measure of my changing love for you
Is that I do not see you but love you blindly.

Maybe January light will consume
My heart with its cruel
Ray, stealing my key to true calm.

In this part of the story I am the one who
Dies, the only one, and I will die of love because I love you,
Because I love you, Love, in fire and blood.

Pablo Neruda

 

[Ausus_girl13]

I've been kind of watching this from the background and I feel the need to interject something here.

Neither of you is wrong. That's first.

Also, I know both of you as friends. And Minxy's way of viewing the world is very much one of fire and ice, things are black and white in her world. She approaches her love in the same way. They are either together and good, or apart and fighting. And she is PASSIONATE about it. There is no way other way about it. But she doesn't know how to love any way else. It's an all-consuming end of the world sort of feeling, she gives everything, and so that line between love and hate is a very thin one.

But LI- you can be pretty rational about things. Approaching everything with a bit of caution and forethought. And I know you've been hesitant since the one who got away.

You both are going to fundamentally disagree about this precisely because your natures are so different (outsider's viewpoint I could totally be wrong). You have one thing in common. You're both sluts (and I mean this lovingly).

 

[Light Ice]

Where did I say that it was regular?

You mentioned that it was consistent in fights for one party, or both, to want to intentionally hurt one another.

Blah, blah, blah...sorry, what? Tell my fucking sisters that one and they'd laugh in your face! Seriously! Anger needs release and I don't care how much self control you have, the people in your life that know you well enough know how to push you past the point of all control and I'm sorry but it's far better to be verbal about it than physical.

This is a pretty troubling declaration on your part. You're inferring that intending to hurt someone you love is natural. It isn't. You're also inferring that it's acceptable to attempt to wound them emotionally in lieu of hurting them physically. It isn't.

My sister Charlotte can push me to the point of choking her to death, quite literally! That is how much of a cunt she can be when she wants to really push my buttons and hurt me. I haven't killed her but that doesn't mean that in the heat of the moment the intent isn't fully there. Because it is.

Read this a few times and tell me if it sounds sane to you, Minx.

People are selfish. Doesn't matter how giving you are, when it comes to your own feelings and emotions? You're selfish. You cry, you yell and you don't always do it to the person deserving of it but if you don't do it? I pity the person you kill when you explode.

This is at least a little honest. People -are- selfish. The difference, however, is that in a loving partnership and committed relationship most people value the relationship and recognize it as something constructive to their happiness. That means, when handling one another, they treat it with respect and empathy for their own sake at the very least.

In a matter of love, though, I truly believe that someone should consider the other's feelings in those situations, too.

There are constructive outlets for anger and constructive ways to express it in an argument. I'm glad to say that I've never felt the need to unload on a woman, especially one that was my partner, in order to satisfy any of my urges.

You're sure you're not a virgin?
Or a sorcerer?
Cause surely, you must have made the perfect plastic Stepford girlfriend if she's never bitten your head off for something.

That's a hell of a statement. I'll just respond by saying that there are plenty of women who can assert their feelings and their opinions without intentionally (or unintentionally) hurting their partner.

Co-dependence?! Okay, you're gonna have to explain this one a bit better, I gotta hear this!

Confidence, Security, Stability, and Happiness are innate qualities. It's unhealthy to begin to depend on another human being to give you those things. When you do, particularly in a relationship, you become dependent on them. It's unhealthy.

I'm truly afraid you'll disagree.

 

[Veroe]

Love, passion, Hate-aren't they different expressions of the same thing-Caring for another really? It's like water, relative to temperature, water can become a solid, liquid, or gas. The same with caring for another relative current circumstances within your relationship with that person you experience, love, passion, or hatred for them because you care about them. Those expressions revolve with the changing current circumstances of the relationship.

Note: I use the word hatred in the classical sense. These days people use that word much too flippantly.

 

[Light Ice]

Love, passion, Hate-aren't they different expressions of the same thing-Caring for another really? It's like water, relative to temperature, water can become a solid, liquid, or gas. The same with caring for another relative current circumstances within your relationship with that person you experience, love, passion, or hatred for them because you care about them. Those expressions revolve with the changing current circumstances of the relationship.

Note: I use the word hatred in the classical sense. These days people use that word much too flippantly.

I suppose the literal interpretation of things is bound to be an unpopular one amongst a group of writers. I think I'll let the argument go and agree to disagree with you and Minx and Ausus and most likely everyone around.

 

[Ausus_girl13]

I suppose the literal interpretation of things is bound to be an unpopular one amongst a group of writers. I think I'll let the argument go and agree to disagree with you and Minx and Ausus and most likely everyone around.

Ooh ouch.

I didn't say you were wrong. I just said your viewpoint differs from hers.

Though I love how this has rapidly turned into you being against all of us, which none of us put you there.

Minx's issues aside, I find it wholly interesting that you not only seek to put distance with those on this board but you inherently think yourself better than them, all the while partaking of the games that are played.

 

[Light Ice]

Ooh ouch.

I didn't say you were wrong. I just said your viewpoint differs from hers.

Though I love how this has rapidly turned into you being against all of us, which none of us put you there.

Minx's issues aside, I find it wholly interesting that you not only seek to put distance with those on this board but you inherently think yourself better than them, all the while partaking of the games that are played.

I put myself on the opposite side of the fence with the definitions of my argument. You believe it's a difference of viewpoint. I believe you're wrong because I believe Minx is wrong. Hence, in a way, I'm arguing with you both. You add in my acknowledgement of a difference between Veroe's opinion and my own and now I'm arguing with three people.

The argument, while friendly, is one that isn't meant to be won. There's no measure of gain here, other than insight and debate. I'm fairly satisfied with the way I've addressed my point of view and my comprehension of the others here.

Any further exploration would be unnecessary.

The rest is an interesting speculation and another discussion entirely. I don't mind partaking, Ausus, but another venue might be in order. I've derailed it to speak to Minx but it'd probably be wise to use one of your threads for that conversation.

 

[Ausus_girl13]

I put myself on the opposite side of the fence with the definitions of my argument. You believe it's a difference of viewpoint. I believe you're wrong because I believe Minx is wrong. Hence, in a way, I'm arguing with you both. You add in my acknowledgement of a difference between Veroe's opinion and my own and now I'm arguing with three people.

The argument, while friendly, is one that isn't meant to be won. There's no measure of gain here, other than insight and debate. I'm fairly satisfied with the way I've addressed my point of view and my comprehension of the others here.

Any further exploration would be unnecessary.

The rest is an interesting speculation and another discussion entirely. I don't mind partaking, Ausus, but another venue might be in order. I've derailed it to speak to Minx but it'd probably be wise to use one of your threads for that conversation.

No one is wrong when they are speaking from their own experience. Because they own that experience, that's their life.

That's my thought on this whole thing.

Name the place and time, LI you know how I love to stand toe to toe with you and tell you that you're cute and stupid.

 

[Light Ice]

No one is wrong when they are speaking from their own experience. Because they own that experience, that's their life.

That's my thought on this whole thing.

Name the place and time, LI you know how I love to stand toe to toe with you and tell you that you're cute and stupid.

There's almost always a right or a wrong, Ausus. I'd prefer we leave the Chateau for our more playful collisions. Pick another for this one because I simply do not have a solid grasp on the OOC threads you have running.

 

[monique_minx]

Wow...the things you miss when you go to sleep aye?!

Alright, five minutes before I have to run to Christmas shopping.

LI - Never said I thought you were entirely wrong. Said it was a fight and in my example, I said ONCE in our WHOLE relationship together. Not REGULAR, not CONSISTENT, ONCE. And no, it didn't sound sane, love is crazy, that was my point there.

Aus - Thanks for the step in babe, it was a good discussion but I'm entirely tired of people saying there's something wrong with me for loving someone my way.

Gotta dash, dad can't drive >.<

Thanks Veroe, get back to you later! sorry!

 

[monique_minx]

Leaving this for you LI

http://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=36204711&postcount=1227

To better understand when I say passion and hate, fighting and love go hand in hand.

I just don't think when I'm in love, all or nothing like Aus said. I'm not dependent upon another for my happiness, that's not to say they don't make me happier but I can live and be happy without them. Without Callum? I think I've pretty much proved that I can be.

I am nothing if not a creature of passion.

 

[Veroe]

Aus - Thanks for the step in babe, it was a good discussion but I'm entirely tired of people saying there's something wrong with me for loving someone my way.

That's kinda the point about relationships isn't it? There's nothing conventional about them. They're one of the most subjective things in the human experience. What one would find objectionable another would consider the greatest expression of love and devotion to another.

Take you and Leo for example. Alot of people out there in the world would consider him abusive and even villainous but not you right? You'd defend his way of treating you with your last breath. In fact alot of people out ther would consider alot of the RPers here to be antisocial degenerates, the dregs of society, but none of us consider that to be true. (atleast I hope not)

Nothing is simple about human relationships. Nothing is cut and dried, and nothing is conventional.