Go ask Alice (What to do about the top list)

[Unmasked Poet]

And he named the monster "Frankenstein"

Thank you Laurel, when you guys get a chance to do that, it will benefit everyone.
That will certainly solve the space issue, I suspect this has evolved beyond that single point, and I am glad that it has. It allows all of us to state our opinions.

It has surprised me quite a bit. The graciousness of WickedEve and SA Storm and now others is fantastic.

Tigerjen relax, I am sorry you feel asking poets to remove old work is a demand. I am also sorry it caused a work related flashback to some other matter. Your opinion is valid. You should state it if you want. But do not cry foul on behalf of your voters who you are so magnanimous of. That consideration of others does not extend to removing your old work. and it shouldn’t.

What I wanted it to be about is making the list more accessible to poets, and more poems. You're not a bad for your opinion, but please don't cry martyr! Keep L.A.W and Cyberguy and Jaded 1 happy. The board is far more interesting without them running to your defense or support every time you post a thread about one of your poems. You have the oddest fan base. They do not seem to join in on poetic discussion about anything but you. They maintain remarkably low levels of posts. They vote often on almost every poem you write, so much so that 35 to 42 of your poems can maintain averages high enough to occupy the list. They are a silent majority that on release of a new poem by you can push it to #1 with 60 votes in two days. Then they disappear.

You are quite lucky to have Lit on most poetry boards they limit what you can post. They do not allow poets to choke the list. When I thought of this suggestion your poems were not on my mind. Now all I can do is think of them, “One man’s pleasure…”

U.P.

 

[WickedEve]

Laurel

Laurel has the solution. And I hope she'll be able to do it very soon. I think it'll work out great! But in the mean time, poets with older poems that have been on the list for a while, could help out by temporarily shutting off voting. So far, it seems to help. I'm sure that as soon as all the new space is available, you can turn the voting back on and continue with the last score you had when you shut voting off. And you can return to the list. Is this correct Laurel? If so, it may make other poets more willing.

 

[Cyberguy]

It sounds like Laurel and Manu have a handle on the issues and a solution in the works. Laurel: if it is possible for an "outsider" to help with the programming let me know, I might be able to lend a hand.

Cyberguy no one is being hasty, true I have been here only a few months yet based on my time on the board reading, commenting, and supporting poetry (while thoroughly enjoying myself I might add) I feel I have insight into the community. I am comfortable expressing my thoughts and they are never hasty at all.

Respectfully unless you have another name with which you have posted poems and contributed to the well being of our community I suggest it is you who are hasty. I'm sure in time your contributions to our community will add greatly to our diversity. I enjoy this discussion, yet I fail to see what your arguing for? What is it you want? How does the poets by their own choice removing their old poems effect anything? It is not a law, it's a choice.

I wasn't aware that prior participation was a prerequisite for contributing to this discussion. While I have only recently begun posting poems and participating in discussions, I have been reading this board off and on for around six months. If there have been other threads on this subject, I probably missed them, so forgive me if I'm raising options that have already been considered and rejected.

I am arguing for having a list that represents the best poems of all-time on Lit as chosen by the readers. I think it is a valuable resource to have for use by new visitors to the site. I don't want to see it go away because regulars know that it doesn't change and that there are many deserving poems that are not on it.

I agree that there should be a way for readers to find these deserving poems. While poets removing old poems from the list is admirable, doing so is a workaround and not a solution, and has some undesirable side-effects. New visitors won't see the poems that are removed. The poet will not receive additional feedback on the poem in the form of votes. It does nothing to address the problem of poems by new poets not getting enough visibility to get the votes needed to qualify for the list. It puts the burden of maintaining the diversity of the list on the poets. It puts poets who choose not to participate in an awkward position in which they are subjected to personal attacks for having the audacity to not capitulate.

What I wanted it to be about is making the list more accessible to poets, and more poems. You're not a bad for your opinion, but please don't cry martyr! Keep L.A.W and Cyberguy and Jaded 1 happy. The board is far more interesting without them running to your defense or support every time you post a thread about one of your poems. You have the oddest fan base. They do not seem to join in on poetic discussion about anything but you. They maintain remarkably low levels of posts. They vote often on almost every poem you write, so much so that 35 to 42 of your poems can maintain averages high enough to occupy the list. They are a silent majority that on release of a new poem by you can push it to #1 with 60 votes in two days. Then they disappear.

I made about a dozen posts to this board prior to this thread, none of which were "in defense" of Tigerjen, and relatively few of which involved her at all. Please don't characterize my posts or my participation as being otherwise.

Tigerjen markets herself aggressively outside of this board and has done so quite successfully. It's not surprising then that she gets far more reads and votes when she releases a new poem than those who haven't, and that they come from readers that aren't regulars on this board. Her fan base is composed primarily of people that aren't regulars on this board. I see nothing odd about that.

What does strike me as odd is that it appears it is only the regulars and the fans that vote. My personal experience is that I get a rush of votes (okay, 4-5) when I first release it. Presumably, these come from people that regularly read this board and the New Poems list. Then the number of reads continues to go up, but the number of votes stays flat. The first time it happened I thought there was something wrong with the voting system!

 

[daughter]

Add me to the turn off list

Might be a band-aide solution but is an effort. Two spots hardly will make a dent but as one of the ardent supporters of change, I follow up the talk.

Peace,

daughter

 

[KillerMuffin]

I've thought about this for a bit. I'm going to turn off voting to all of my poetry and keep it that way. I think that the top lists in poetry is actually detrimental to the poetry itself.

Poetry isn't like stories at all. You don't get the same things from it, you don't write it for the same reasons, and you don't use it the same way. I can't tell if a poem is good by it's ratings because no two people enjoy poetry in the same ways.

I would, actually, prefer there be either no top lists or that the top lists for poetry be for poems less than two weeks old and have no vote minimums. There are a lot of poems that don't meet the minimum requirements.

Then you should also consider sheer volume. I have 9 poems. TigerJen has 45 poems. Solar Dragon has 81 poems.

Have you ever heard of Solar? Do you ever read his stuff? He doesn't come here, he used to go to chats, but I haven't been there in months so I don't know if he still does. I don't think he has anything new.

Rather than have a bunch of top lists just have one short term one and a poetry board with visible links in the poetry lists to the poetry discussion board. Most people who read poems will discuss them as well. Most people who read them probably don't know about this place.

 

[Jaded1]

What the hell did I stumble into.......

I for one am totally in awe of the incredible talent this site has to offers. There are fantastic artists in both the poetry and story areas. That's right ARTISTS. In that very same breath I have never seen so many inflated egos. Some of which really need their egos deflated a little. I openly admit poetry is not my strong point. I do not feel comfortable telling someone what they are doing is right or wrong. HOWEVER, I DO KNOW WHAT I ENJOY READING. To judge a poem bases on technical skills I would be totally lost. I look at a poem or story based on it creativity. There are poems and storys I have read more than once. People like Daughter with her intellectual sensuality. Daughter intelligence is very sexy. I bow to you, TigerJen with your sexual inocence. Jen if that is you in that AV I want to deflower you. Now, for Wicked Eve. You are just a raw passionate sexual animal. I read you and have fantasys for days on end about you. DebbieXXX very sexual and sensual. If only you didn't live so far away. There are so many additional ARTISTS I enjoy reading. Hell I could have my own thread of artists.

I guess I am trying to say that all this argueing really bothers me From my veiw point it appears that there is no room for new poets. Laurel this is only my suggestions. Trust me I am not anywhere near qualified to make any call better than you are. I bow to you. Perhaps there could be areas established for new poems erotic and new poems non erotic. These poems would reside on the list for thirty days. At which time they could be voted on. If these new poems fail to meet a established score they do not get transfered to erotic or non erotic librarys. It is the same way in real life. You either make the cut or you don't. Even the very best of poets or story writers lays a egg now and then. When they do I can't imagine that the wouldn't want it to roll off the face of the earth. For those that don't make the library it's great incentive to work harder. Remember, the cream will always rise to the top of the bottle..................

Hey, life is tuff. You either make it or you don't

Jaded1, CT

 

[RisiaSkye]

I'm turning off voting on about half of my poems; I hope that will satisfy the cries for new blood. I take agency for my actions: I'm doing this because I choose to do it. But I'm also doing it rather than be attacked for staying on the toplist. Some of my poetry on there is over a year old. But, guess what? Some of those poems didn't make the list for over a year. That's how long it takes sometimes, and so my supposedly "current" poems on the list will sometimes actually have been there for a good deal longer. I haven't seen any solution to this problem, and frankly, I'm not going to lose any sleep about it.

I have to say, though, I think that this whole thing is a bit disingenuous--I think it has very little to do with helping people grow or find readers. I think there's resentment that "old" poems might be higher in ratings than the work of "new," and extremely vocal, poets. That's fine, but it's also one sided and reductive. If all the people who are *so* concerned about this issue would just READ the new poetry list daily, this wouldn't be a problem, would it? It takes less than a half hour to read every single new poem posted on a particular day. But, I guess that's too much work. So, alright then. You can have all the space you want. Fill it with whatever you've decided is worthy, eligible, and not offensively overexposed.

 

[WickedEve]

Jaded1

Now, for Wicked Eve. You are just a raw passionate sexual animal. I read you and have fantasys for days on end about you.

Yes, I am an animal. No use trying to deny it!
I'd love to add your quote to my sig line! Do you mind?

Jaded1, it's been like the Jerry Springer Show around here lately. Except, thanks to our AVs, we're better looking than his guests.

 

[Unmasked Poet]

Stop the madness

Alright I lit the fuse, and I will be happy to hold this stick of dynamite untill it blows.

Risia, all I suggested is that poets with a good number of old poems on this list self censor. It does not make sense to remove a poem that has barely arrived on the list even if it's a year old.

Now last I checked the Poetry Olympics were on.


Wicked,
Don't say I'm Jerry Springer.

U.P.

 

[Couture]

Well, I've never written a pom here, but what is the deal with the whining?

When you post a story or a poem, people rate it. If you get a high enough rating, it gets moved into the toplist. If you get a lot of reads it gets moved into the most read list.

What's next, having authors withdraw their stories, because too many people have read them and it isn't fair for the new up coming authors?

The toplist is the toplist. It is where the cream of the crop resides. It is where readers can go to the find the really good stuff that has been written here past and present. Withdrawing the voting of poms and tales messes the whole thing up. Then the toplist becomes nothing but the new list.

If you want to take that as a FUCK YOU, feel free. But, where I come from; it is called having an opinion that is different from yours.

I guess that isn't very politically correct is it? I'm sowwy, let's all withdwaw our widdle poms and stowies so dat the others can have a nice shiny bwue wibbon too. Dis way evweebody can be popuwar.

 

[WickedEve]

Hey Jerry

How's this for irony. Now that poems have been taken off, the list has gone from 35 tigerjen poems to 41 tigerjen poems. Close to half the list.
LOL

This has been a wild ride.

 

[Jaded1]

To: Wicked Eve..............

Consider the quote your's I am highly honored to see it as apart of your Sig. I would be honored to be a reference

If there is anything else of mine you want to use it's your's

Ah, JESUS I justed orgasmed and have to change my pants. Oh, did I say that out load

Jaded1, CT

Another week of fantasys

 

[Unmasked Poet]

Oh sure shoot the messenger

Just like the old day's I'm sure TJ's happy.

U.P.

 

[Guest]

Well, I've never written a pom here, but what is the deal with the whining?

When you post a story or a poem, people rate it. If you get a high enough rating, it gets moved into the toplist. If you get a lot of reads it gets moved into the most read list.

What's next, having authors withdraw their stories, because too many people have read them and it isn't fair for the new up coming authors?

The toplist is the toplist. It is where the cream of the crop resides. It is where readers can go to the find the really good stuff that has been written here past and present. Withdrawing the voting of poms and tales messes the whole thing up. Then the toplist becomes nothing but the new list.

If you want to take that as a FUCK YOU, feel free. But, where I come from; it is called having an opinion that is different from yours.

I guess that isn't very politically correct is it? I'm sowwy, let's all withdwaw our widdle poms and stowies so dat the others can have a nice shiny bwue wibbon too. Dis way evweebody can be popuwar.

Finally someone spoke it like it is, buncha children calling themselves poets, bullying & gossiping. I hope the management is paying close attention so they know why cultivating these socalled poets is a waste of time.

 

[Debbie]

Finally someone spoke it like it is, buncha children calling themselves poets, bullying & gossiping. I hope the management is paying close attention so they know why cultivating these socalled poets is a waste of time.

I am a so called poet. I am frequently childish.
Cultivating poets is never a waste of time.

I love the talent we have here on Lit. Writers, artists and poets who share there marvellous works of art, wether it be a story, poem or picture.

 

[KillerMuffin]

Before you can fix the whole top list problem, you have to figure out why it's a problem.

Why?

I think that it's got a lot to do with marketing oneself. There is nothing wrong with that. However, what's the quality of the vote if the only poems at Literotica that person reads is yours? Is there a problem when a fan base has been created from people who don't read anything else at Literotica?

I have a list of over 750 addresses of people who have written to me over the years. I could contact them every time I put a new story or poem out. There are a lot of them who've I've had good conversations with. If they went and voted all of my poems would overwhelm the top lists.

Can this problem be fixed? I think not. Why not? Because what people like TJ are doing is not wrong. She doesn't fix voting and she doesn't commit voter fraud; all she does is market herself aggressively.

I don't market myself at all. My poems aren't read very often. I only have two poems that have gone past the double digits in views and one doesn't count because it's an audio. That's my choice. I don't believe in marketing my stories here. The only marketing of my material that I do involves people who will pay may for it and not people who read it for free.

So how do you fix the problem? You don't.

 

[perks]

I agree with KM,

I'd also like to add.

Consider the audience. TJ's poetry is huge on the toplists, because that's HER audience. Until your audience is larger than hers, votes more than hers, you won't be part of the toplist to that degree.

Not taking away from TJ's poetry< she has a certain style that lots of people looking for erotic poetry love>, but the poetry is only one part of the voting.

Cry foul if you must, but a gazillion people buy hallmark cards, not as many read Maya Angelou.

perks

 

[Guest]

I love TJ's poetry. I've voted at least 30 times on each one.

 

[Couture]

LOL! Unregistered, I don't think you are supposed to vote 30 times for each one. You really are supposed to only vote once per story don't cha know.

Couture

Don't feed the trolls

 

[KillerMuffin]

No you don't, unreg. There is confirmation that the poetry lists and TJ's poems have no indication of voter fraud. Whatever you think of TJ and her fans, they don't cheat.

 

[perks]

I voted for a poem by daughter once and forgot, when I tried to vote again it told me I had already voted......gotta love puters.

 

[Blue Dolphin]

Top list, or friends group?

At 8pm EDt on Sun night my poem A life Refreshed, was #1 on erotic poems list.
Score 4.67, from 13 votes.

Five hours later

Is #60
score 4.006, drom 16 votes.

This leaves me very suspicious.
Are htere persons with a vested interest, who seeing a poem not from thee " group who seem to own the list" on top, actually go in and vote as low as possible.The new #1 now ,has come from nowhere with 25 votes, good luck to the author.
But,I wonder

Is not a nice thing to say, but has to be asked.

 

[Laurel]

I love TJ's poetry. I've voted at least 30 times on each one.

Upon close inspection, there are definitely some interesting patterns in regards to 1-votes on tigerjen's poems and 5-votes on a certain other member's poems. I suspect that our Unregistered may be involved in trying to take down tj while boosting himself. I'll look closer at this over the next few days and see if I can make a direct connect between low votes on tj and a specific member.

Why anyone would bother attempting to cheat, and specifically why they would viciously go after other members' votes scores, will always remain a huge mystery to me.

 

[perks]

the mystery is solved laurel, it's jealousy pure and simple.

 

[Blue Dolphin]

the list

Hi perky my friend, nice to see u again, and hi Laurel.
When one considers the number of poets,and poems submitted on lit,then the list becomes a farce.
Ok I was pleased to hit #1, but is no great feat, my work is only average,got there because good friends like my stuff and vote.

But I know my stuff is not earth shattering,indeed a lot is just fun poems for friends,with occasional serious ones that hurt to write.
As to the list, it is so false,the same names re appearing over nad over from#1 to #75.
That is bullshit
It is so easy for a group of peeole to manipulate a list like this.
8 ppl, each with 12 friends, = 96 ppl, all cross voting each pthers work, maximum or near maximum votes
New poets get swamped.
Bet I get a right ear bashing for this
But
it needed asying