God's Will vs. my Dominant's Will

[Linyari]

I'm of the opinion that a leader (dominant partner) who wishes to take control of a relationship, is honor bound to first do no harm. The submissive party is honor bound to maintain her integrity.

I agree with this completely.

It's also worth noting that the bible does say that wives should submit to their husbands. However, it goes on further to say that husband's should love and cherish their wives as Christ loved the church. (Hey, I have to put this fascination with religion to good use, somehow. *grin*)

Ideally, it is an excellent set up for a traditional D/s marriage. The man is the Master and the woman is the submissive but she is also treasured and honored in that position.

One whose Will is aligned with God's will not ask you to do something that goes against what the bible tells you to do. (If you are a bible believing Christian, of course.) It's also important to remember that your husband is indeed human with human drives, human needs and human's tendency to sin. As I recall, only one person in the bible was perfect and never sinned and I believe the bible stated that he actually WAS God, making him not exactly the same thing.

Ultimately, by virtue of just being human and falliable (like we all are) he cannot be that tuned in with the will of God. If he is asking you to do anything you know contradicts biblical teachings, then you really know he's not speaking the word of God.

If your faith is important to you, a good Dominant will do nothing to help or push you to act against that faith. And if your faith has been a part of you for a long time, chances are good that your instincts on some things might be right on, when it comes to what is right for you.

Then again, I recently read an article somewhere written by a woman that truly believed that she should listen to her father and then husband and never speak directly to God.

I must admit, it kind of disturbed me though. And I love all religions and faiths and think they're fascinating in a good way.

 

[Etoile]

Well, if my husband encourages me to have an affair, but I'm seeing another wife's husband, then I might be serving him. . . but not God.

I'm an atheist, so I don't have anything helpful to contribute, but I did find this particular example a very interesting philosophical idea.

 

[eastern sun]

. . .

If you are active in a recovery progrm, your question is better directed to your sponsor than to a bunch of strangers on an erotic/alternative sex site. Guilt is a bitch to deal with. And the right thing do is very rarely the easy thing, or the fun thing.

I am active in a recovery program, but I haven't found a sponsor who has not been involved in D/s relationships to be helpful in sorting out these kind of issues. Mostly because the look they get on their face when I mention what I'm doing makes me feel uncomfortable.

That's why the anonymous group of strangers seems helpful. Working like a moral compass. The pendulum swings back and forth until the shared middle ground becomes apparent. And I have learned a lot about responsibility and submission in just the last 24 hours.

I would love to meet people active in both communities, addiction recovery and BDSM, because the moral complexity in a D/s relationship lends itself to the kind of rationalizing behaviors alcoholism and addiction lead to. At least it can without guidance from a thoughtful community. . .

Because I keep the nature of my relationship with my husband private - its very secrecy allows me to create of it whatever I want to perceive it to be. Bringing my rationalizations to the bright light of public scrutiny opens my eyes and mind . . .

 

[eastern sun]

. . .

Although my faith might not coincide with yours, I would believe that if you wish to serve God first, you cannot serve two masters in the end. You need to choose one. And that is your choice. It can't be taken away from you, nor should you give that choice away.

This is exactly what I have been afraid of - that it is in fact impossible to serve two masters. That if I choose to serve God, I cannot serve my husband or vice versa. Simply because I will have to choose one or the other if I ever perceive them to be in conflict.

However, tonight, after much thought provoked by the comments on this thread, both my husband and I believe it is possible. Just difficult because the sensitivity of both parties to the needs of the other and our responsibility to our community requires us to be alert to those many ways we deceive ourselves.

I've often heard BDSM practitioners laud themselves for their moral superiority because though power relationships pervade all human relationships, only D/s relationships embody it explicitly and therefore force us to (hopefully) be responsible and thoughtful in our actions.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

This is exactly what I have been afraid of - that it is in fact impossible to serve two masters. That if I choose to serve God, I cannot serve my husband or vice versa. Simply because I will have to choose one or the other if I ever perceive them to be in conflict.

However, tonight, after much thought provoked by the comments on this thread, both my husband and I believe it is possible. Just difficult because the sensitivity of both parties to the needs of the other and our responsibility to our community requires us to be alert to those many ways we deceive ourselves.

I've often heard BDSM practitioners laud themselves for their moral superiority because though power relationships pervade all human relationships, only D/s relationships embody it explicitly and therefore force us to (hopefully) be responsible and thoughtful in our actions.

i don't see where it's impossible to serve them both. i serve my Master, and God. i would never do something that was asked of me by my Dominant that goes against my faith i.e. adultery, even though He does not serve my God. He is Buddhist so obviously does not have the same belief as i do, but He knows my faith is strong and would never ask something of me that He knew went totally against God (in my eyes) if He did , i would discuss it with Him, and hopefully find that happy medium....if not, then i guess i could see where maybe i wouldn't be able to serve them both. but if your husband loves you, and has the same faith as you, i don't understand why he would ask these things of you to begin with. and if you've spoken with him about them and he still feels you should do them, then i would question His motives and His wayof thinking and caring about you....

 

[MasterPhoenix]

as My rose stated her and I are of different religious persuasions. I am a practicing Nichiren Shoshu Buddhist and have been for over a decade, while she is a Christian.

I would NEVER ask her to do something that would violate her religious principles, as it is My duty to respect her as I nurture and guide her.

IMO, this lifestyle is not to distract from our spiritual paths, but another facet in this jewel that we call life.

 

[FurryFury]

I'm glad that some people find solace or whatever from religion. I've had people tell me it helps them not kill family members and they seemed serious about that statement. So yay for them and religion. In that case I'm ALL for it!

However I personally dislike it when religion is used to attempt to limit what people can do, even when used by those people themselves. Why can't they simply say, this is where I draw the line. This seems right. This seems wrong to me? I have no problem with making these sorts of decisions but that's just me, maybe it is hard for many?

I don't think that if God exists that s/he cares if I shop at Walmart or have an affair or win a game show or whatever. I always find it the height of arrogance when people on reality or game shows say God is helping them win. Why? What makes them so much better than the other people they are competing against, some of which are also religious.

What I hope is that if God exists that s/he is a tolerant, caring and loving God not the vengeful bastard often shown in the bible. Regardless, in most religions God is supposed to forgive when approached correctly and with sincerity. So whatever you are not comfortable with, you can receive that blessing which IMO is one of the most miraculous ones that most religions offer.

From what I can tell, God if s/he does exists has fucked me and those I love more than once. Not in the good consensual way, mind you. Either that or s/he isn't paying attention, doesn't care, doesn't exist, whatever.

Whereas my husband and lovers, for the most part (there was one exception) when they fucked me it was consensual and usually pleasurable.

So, even though I don't torment myself with questions such as, should I follow God or my husband, if I did, that would be determined by what I thought was right and what I enjoyed. The same would go for a Dominant that I had. Which means I'd most likely follow my husband or Dominant who I know does exist, who I trust and who cherishes me.

We all have limits. There are in fact things I would never do for any one. Most of them are in the ten commandments but there are some commandments I break every single day. I'm comfortable with that.

If my Dominant told me to have an affair for instance, that would smack right into one of my hard limits of not being shared. Though certainly the idea of group sex, being shared and objectified is H-O-T, that is not something I would easily do. With time that limit might be worn away, if so it could become something I was comfortable and happy with.

For us, it wouldn't be an affair anyway because he'd know about it. I'm not quite sure why this is BDSM except for being told to do it. But then you said, he told you that because he knew you wanted to? So were you serving him, he serving you, you serving yourself or what? I'm confused but anyway, going on.

What would make it an affair is that the other man is keeping it from his wife. So I wouldn't be worried about you, your Dom or the other man who all entered into this consensually but it wouldn't be a right thing to do to his wife. I'd be uncomfortable with doing it for that reason as well. I don't really see just why this is needed/required either but again, moving on.

I have cybered with married men but that didn't involve me actually touching them physically. I could bring myself to do that for a while. In fact, in some ways I saw it as potentially helpful for them. Ain't rationalization great? I know it helped me in some ways. I believe it also helped them. And in those cases, no I didn't feel a need to protect their wife's.

So to recap, I would follow my own vision of right or wrong, which may not always actually be right. I wouldn't agree to anything that I felt went against those without a lot of work and trust. I wouldn't torment myself with the God vrs Dom question. I wish you well.

Fury

 

[chris9]

There are several duties outlined in the bible. So at one point it's said that wives should submit to their husbands. At another point it's said that you should not hurt or harm anybody else (not even sure this is true, I'm making an example and am not bible-firm). Now your husbands to whom it's your biblical duty to submit asks you to do something that will harm another, thus not doing your biblical duty.
There's a part where Jesus says that people have to go to the temple on Sabbath (?) to pray. But if they have a disagreement with (brother/neighbour/not sure what kind of person) it's better to go to them and solve the disagreement and make peace than to go to the temple.
Draw your own conclusion.

 

[the captians wench]

Furry~ That's the major differance between the God of the old testament and the God of the new testament. In the old testament we're told that we have to pay for our sins, God can not stand anything unclean, and some how that relates to his being vengeful. I'm not sure if that's because of our perception of things or if He just was.

In the new testament, we no longer have to make the sacrifice because Jesus took all the sin in the world upon himself and made the ultimit sacrifice. And thus things became very peaceful and loving like.

But the point I really want to make, is while God is a forgiving and caring God that doesn't mean that we can set out and do things that we know is wrong, with the knowledge that it's wrong and then come back and say "oh sorry please forgive me". That'd be like your mom telling you do not eat the cookies, you looking at her and saying okay I won't eat the cookies because you told me not to. And then thinking about the cookies all day and deciding since it's something that you really want you'll eat the cookies, and since you really want it it can't be wrong and maybe you mis interperted what she said. Then going back to your mom and asking for forgiveness. Something's just wrong about that isn't there?

I know a lot of people here are not big on religion, and even less so on the bible, which is why I tend to stay away from these conversations; I can be very stubborn and opinionated when it comes to these matters.

Chris~ You do have to be careful where you find your marrage advice in the bible. My favorite area to read about the marrage laws, if you will, is a chapter written by Paul. How ever thru out the passages mixed in with the message God has given him, he also throws in his own personal beliefs. One of which is Paul believed that it was better not to marry at all, and that to be truely next to God one should be selebat. He does each time state that this is his opinion and not God's will, but it kinda makes you think about the rest of his writting doesn't it.

Which brings me to a point that is made quite often. How do we know that we are reading God's word when the bible has be altered so many times?

My answer is the same as if you ask me how do I really know my Love is who he says he is on the other side of the internet: I don't know, and I can't know. But I believe in a God who is powerful enough to create the universe. If He is powerful enough to create everything I behold, why would it be so hard to believe that He is powerful enough to protect His word?

to the op~No one can tell you what is right and what is wrong. No one can tell you if something is in God's will for you or if it isn't. And no one can tell you what God will hold you responcible for and what he won't. These are things you have to know yourself and be prepared to take on what ever out come may pass.

 

[FurryFury]

You don't think people can be forgiven for doing something they;

A.) promised not to,

B) did anyway

C) decided it was okay because they wanted to

or

D) did even though they knew it was wrong

if they later sincerely ask for forgiveness?

Fury

 

[the captians wench]

You don't think people can be forgiven for doing something they;

A.) promised not to,

B) did anyway

C) decided it was okay because they wanted to

or

D) did even though they knew it was wrong

if they later sincerely ask for forgiveness?

Fury

I think I missed a key point in my earlier statement. Yes, I do believe in forgiveness, if it is sincere, but not if the event happens on a continueous basis. I know I didn't state that before and I'm sorry for rushing into that. But another point I was trying to make is how can you sincerely appologize for something if you justify it by saying that you wanted it so bad that it couldn't have been wrong. Wouldn't you then be saying that the event wasn't wrong in the first place and there for why would you need to appologize.

It really is the sincerity that hangs me up. I just don't see it as being sincere if it's a sin you comit on a regular schedule, as I kind of too things to be.

But my head's a mess right now and I'm probable not comunicating what I'm trying to because everything I type seems not the right wording to me. Man I need a vacation.

 

[Linyari]

You don't think people can be forgiven for doing something they;

A.) promised not to,

B) did anyway

C) decided it was okay because they wanted to

or

D) did even though they knew it was wrong

if they later sincerely ask for forgiveness?

Fury

I don't know, have you ever been sorry for something you simply didn't care about at the time? Have you ever been sorry for the pain you caused others even though at the time you couldn't care less?

I know I have been. I did some really shitty things as a teenager. *grin*

 

[FurryFury]

I think I missed a key point in my earlier statement. Yes, I do believe in forgiveness, if it is sincere, but not if the event happens on a continueous basis. I know I didn't state that before and I'm sorry for rushing into that. But another point I was trying to make is how can you sincerely appologize for something if you justify it by saying that you wanted it so bad that it couldn't have been wrong. Wouldn't you then be saying that the event wasn't wrong in the first place and there for why would you need to appologize.

It really is the sincerity that hangs me up. I just don't see it as being sincere if it's a sin you comit on a regular schedule, as I kind of too things to be.

But my head's a mess right now and I'm probable not comunicating what I'm trying to because everything I type seems not the right wording to me. Man I need a vacation.

The reason it can be sincere is because your view point changes. BTW, I've personally never said something was right simply because I wanted it so bad and therefore it couldn't be wrong. That's not the kind of person I am.

I have done stuff that I either knew was wrong at the time and did it anyway or didn't realize was wrong, then regretted it or changed my mind about it later though. I think we all have. That's probably one reason why we haven't been translated like Enoch or something. *s*

I think we are mostly on the same page now.

I'm sorry you aren't feeling well.

*hug*

I don't know, have you ever been sorry for something you simply didn't care about at the time? Have you ever been sorry for the pain you caused others even though at the time you couldn't care less?

I know I have been. I did some really shitty things as a teenager. *grin*

Exactly. That's what I'm talking about right there.

The whole, there is no sin that can't be forgiven thing is too cool IMO.

Fury

 

[the captians wench]

The reason it can be sincere is because your view point changes. BTW, I've personally never said something was right simply because I wanted it so bad and therefore it couldn't be wrong. That's not the kind of person I am.

I have done stuff that I either knew was wrong at the time and did it anyway or didn't realize was wrong, then regretted it or changed my mind about it later though. I think we all have. That's probably one reason why we haven't been translated like Enoch or something. *s*

I think we are mostly on the same page now.

I'm sorry you aren't feeling well.

*hug*

*snuggles*

I think you're right.

And I never ment you personally. Tho I did have some one in mind.

 

[LordHawk]

I am of the opinion that god or God or the gods or Allah or anybody else should stay out the bedroom. Personally I do not believe in Christianity. I am way to cynical and no offense to those who truly believe, but the history of the church makes it seem like one big con to me. I do know some people who do believe and live the way they think they should and I have all the respect in the world for them. I don't know what they do in their bedrooms however. I suppose it falls upon each individual to decide how to marry their believes with their lives.

 

[Raidho]

I will preface this by saying that this whole D/s thing is rather new to me, and something I'm just now exploring to see how it fits into my life.

With that out of the way, I don't see how it would be impossible to serve two masters, as long as the masters' will are in common. In a non-bdsm example, one can serve the community and serve God. Two separate "masters," but the goal is the same.

I think the key, is, as you said, that you'll have to choose if they should ever be in conflict.

Ok, so looking back, I didn't have that much to add. Just felt the need to post and say hi, I suppose.