Grassroots Disc: Penelope Street, 01/09/05, SDC common queue

[Penelope Street]

Sack,

I assume you tried to PM me on this issue and found my box full? Well, guess what? So's yours!

Ironically, I had just opened your story and closed it to see what the new post was!

Too funny, huh? Gonna read it and then soak in the tub. Probably won't get back to you today on it.

On a side note, I don't mind you asking my opinion in my thread. I thought the discussion was more or less winding down anyway.

That said, I think may be a technical breach of SDC etiquette. A harmless one in this case to be sure, but I figured I ought still point it out.

I'll PM you my answers.

Take Care,
Penny

 

[Pure]

Hi Sack,

I know you're new, but the etiquette is to post your critiques, then, in the main 'sticky' thread post your desire to be in the queue for critique. At present the queue is 0, so you could be 'up' quite soon.

pure
traffic director

 

[sack]

I really just was replying to Penny..

and as her mailbox was full... I don't think my story is of the exalted level to be included in this forum. Just, a simple feel good story that probably wouldn't engender much discussion. But thanks for reminding me of the rules anyway...


Sack

 

[CharleyH]

First of, I was astonsihed that people thought that they were married or even knew each other beforehand, because if they did know each other, then it’s a radically different story.

Cool, I will articulate why over the next few days, just distracted right now, and as always appreciating your opinion, like i said, might have read fast, and busy right now, but will point out why . . . give a couple days though or a week busy I want to address.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I’ve got one more thing to say about Dr. Henry Stewart’s metamorphosis into a Dom and how realistic it is, because I think not only was it realistic, but that it even mirrors my own experience. I think Penny got it damned near almost exactly right.

I’m into BDSM, but I didn’t even know what it was until the internet. As a kid, I knew that pictures of girls tied up excited me, but I didn’t think anything of it. A lot of things excited me. For some guys it’s ponytails or white cotton panties or cheerleader outfits. For me it was rope.

So the idea that a dom is a dom from birth is just not true, and to have portrayed Henry as parading around in jack boots and jock strap waiting for his next victim would have absolutely destroyed the story.

When I first found out about BDSM, I thought I was just into the erotic restraint aspects of it. All that business with whips and ordering people around seemed pretty sick to me and I assumed it was just sadistic and misogynistic.

Everything changed when I met my first submissive.

I think that the give and take that goes on in a BDSM relationship is even more pronounced than what you see in vanilla. It really is a push-pull thing. I was horrified by the idea of striking another person with a whip or a crop, all the way up until the point where she told me she wanted me to do it, and then suddenly I couldn’t get my hands on a crop fast enough. My entire BDSM experience has been like that: she pulls, and I push, and now I find myself doing and enjoying things that would have made me run away in horror not long ago. It really is a kind of induction: you get pulled in.

So I find Henry’s change completely understandable. And, after thinking about it for a while, I don’t even mind that “reading up” section. I just wouldn’t have set it off as a separate segment, which seems to give it too much importance, and I probably would have had him up all night surfing the net rather than reading in books. Really, shrinks don’t know anything about BDSM (and I’ve checked), no more than they know anything about homosexuality. He would have learned a hell of a lot more from the web than he would have in a book.

---dr.M.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I must admit I have been pushed for time but wanted to read this story....have only been able to read it hastily twice and both times interrupted several times so will attempt to re-read it in peace in the next day incase I have taken it all wrong....possibly I have. Admittedly it will also be coloured by my own personal experience and views of a D/s relationship.

From my initial response though, it is technically well written but does not convince me of the reality of the storyline. Perhaps part of that results from my dislike of the perception that a Dom can be born overnight just by reading a couple of things and getting an idea of what is expected to pull off the act on a surface level. That to me is not a Dom, instead an actor, and in many circumstances an opportunist who uses the role to fulfil sexual desires of their own, not a desire to dominate.

Add to that I am not a fan of the led Dominant, one who decides to dominate to please his partner as opposed to something he desires.....Claudia does not appear to be someone who would want that, instead wanting a Dom who was at peace with himself and his desires and as such in control of them not controlled by the desires of the other person, and as such able to deliver the control she hungers for. IME a good Dominant cannot afford to be operating from the position of simply doing that which he knows is expected and wanted, rather that which is part of him.

From that perspective I see any subsequent marriage between Claudia and the good doctor as just another disaster for her in an already established list of unsatisfactory marriages. The statement he never discovers why she likes the things she does and doesn't really care also reflects for me that he uses it to satisfy his sexual feelings toward her as an attractive woman, not so much hers or even a refection of need in him....that is just a means to an end for him which also makes him the pawn in her world, his dominant actions led by her desires, not the other way around. For many observing BDSM from the outside this may seem of no consequence, but anyone seriously needing to live that reality, the passive type going along with the game to give the outward appearance of presenting what is desired as time passes comes unstuck and falls apart revealing the fallacy of the relationship.

Catalina

 

[Poussin]

.....

 

[Penelope Street]

Well, teach me not to take a couple of days off to try and prep another story!

Catalina and Poussin, thanks for sharing your thoughts! And Dr. M, thank you for adding to yours.

All views are colored by one's experiences, no? My suspicion is that in the real world, some doms are born and some are made. The same for subs, much like any other group of persons that we might label; be they astronauts or architects, criminals, or clergymen.

I find that most bondage type stories invite the reader to identify with the submissive as that person experiences the euphoria of letting themselves go, surrendering control, etc.

I've read those stories and they have their broad, formulaic appeal, but I wanted to do something different in this story. Sure, I thought the submissive still had to be the focal point, but what if the dominant was the one who let himself go, so to speak? I also wanted for there to be some humor in the story as (hopefully) both the reader and Henry think at the same moment, "What the hell did she really just say?"

And I wanted Claudia to have more spine than the stereotypical submissive. If she isn't getting what she wants, she is not going to hang around, at least not for long. She's not terribly patient. On the other hand, there's some insecurity about her too, the vulnerability of not knowing if it's even ok to be who she is. Is Claudia naive about Henry's lust and what he plans on that Sunday; or has she been cleverly seducing him for weeks? I imagined the former as I was writing, but I'm not sure I didn't accidentally leave open a better interpretation.

As for Henry being a reluctant dom, sure, I saw him as assuming the role because he couldn't give Claudia what she wanted any other way. Is he doing this because he loves her, or because he lusts for her and this is the only way he can have her? I had in mind the former, but I think the latter is also a valid version of the story. Regardless, I think she has reeled him and he's helplessly enthralled.

Henry's line about the makeup was meant to imply that some part of him is still trying to be a doctor, not willing to give up on at least the facade of professionalism, while another part of him wants to tell her to do some little thing just to see whether she will.

Granted there is probably something more appealing about a dom who is ready, willing, and able as opposed to someone that more or less stumbles into the role by chance or necessity. Isn't that true of most things? Even so, I envision Claudia as someone wanting, more than anything else, a partner to accept her for what she is. She hints at this when she says something about her first husband treating her the right way for the wrong reasons, because he was a jerk, not because he loved her. The comment near the end about Henry not caring about the source of Claudia's desires, I meant this to indicate that he had accepted her for who she was, loved her, and didn't feel the need to look beyond that.

Will their relationshp work long term? Naturally, I like to think so, but I don't know what it's really like to be Claudia. From my admittedly amatuerish perspective, I can picture Henry as someone who could grow into the role. I never saw him as giving her what she wanted only for her sake, so I can easily imagine it working for them both. And if it doesn't, well, it's on to hubby number four!

In the end, Henry is meant to be just an ordinary guy who encounters a woman he can't resist in a situation where he is, according to the rules, forbidden to even pursue her. Ok, Henry's shift was a bit too sudden to be believed, regardless of whether he is acting or some hidden desire has surfaced. Is the rest of the story any more believable? Maybe not, but, I was just trying to write a stroke story, after all.

Catalina, Thanks for your incredible insight. You explained your perspective with such clarity. I can imagine one of your experience rolling their eyes a bit at times during my tale, much as a real-life spy might when reading the average espionage story. That's ok! I was trying to push my limits, so if I stumbled a bit in the eyes of a BDSM connoisseur, no surprise- and no regrets. I shall have to put it on my list of things to do to read one of our works and perhaps learn some more of the 'real' thing. Could I temp you to PM me with a suggestion?

Poussin, Worry not; your English is so much better than my French. That wasn't painful at all, but even severe criticism isn't uncomfortable so long as one bothers to look beyond the words to the good intention. And if we only read what turned me on, you're right, neither of us would have read this story! Thank you for both reading it and taking the time to leave such a thorough comment.

Thanks all.

Take Care,
Penny

 

[Op_Cit]

Hey Penny,

Here's what I have to offer in feedback. DISCLAIMER: BDSM is normally a category I pass over. And the obvious: I don't know what I'm talking about, I'm just a reader with asperations of getting an "H" next to my stories... (read: I'm not trying to be pompous if it at all comes off that way, and while I'm at it, I'm not spell checking myself).

First, know that I think it's well written from a mechanical aspect (which most authors are not passable at). I mean grammar, dialog, etc. Also that I was liking it up to a point.

Disclaimer #2 is that I can be submicroscopic in my analysis of what failed for me (as a reader). That means that people think I'm anal.

The simple review is that I kind of liked it but was derailed midway through and didn't finish it. (Like doc, I read it before seeing your request for review.)

I'll give you quick answers to your questions, then explain my derailing and then identify specific phrases I saw problems with...

---------------

Does the protracted tease work?
After a fashion

Does the climactic scene work?
I got derailed before that

Would the story have been better in the first person, as told by the doctor?
YES!!!---oh damn, there's my whole review.

Is the content too soft of otherwise inappropriate for the BDSM category?
Dunno, not my schtick

Is the ending too happy for a story like this?
ditto.

---------------

First problem I saw was the switch between POV from woman to Doc. I kept expecting it to return to her, and that lost me in what you were trying to do.

This prior issue makes me think you weren't sure what you were trying to do with the story: have woman seducing doc, or have doc inadvertently seduced by woman.

Certain phrases about or said by doc led me to think (early on) that doc might be trying to seduce her.

Bottom line of all these is: if it had stayed with the woman's POV, or with the doc's and taken them through either an inadvertant seduction, or intentional seduction, or even if there had been a switch in who was really controlling/seducing whom, that would have worked great. (for me).

OK here's some microscopic:

Claudia's confidence wavered again as she turned to face the mahogany panel that stood between her and the doctor. Am I really going to see a shrink? Am I really crazy? Only one way to find out, she concluded as she barged through the portal.

I like that people's thoughts are expressed, but the form of this expression didn't match the context. That is, this thought goes with a scene where she's making the appointment and not when she's walking through the door. At the doc's door the thought should be abbreviated like: "why am I doing this again? Oh well, here goes." You don't have to have her say specifically "am I crazy" to convey to the reader that she's unsure about herself.

So that paragraph bumped my conscious mind up a couple levels on my descent into the story (woke me from suspension of disbelief).

---
"Do you still prefer the chair?" Henry asked as his patient entered the office

The use of "his patient" instead of "her" or "claudia" made me for a second look to see if there was a different patient in the story. Probably only because of the POV switching. If it had been doc all the way, this may not have been a problem.

---
Dr. Stuart twitched his lips as he tried to digest...

This one really confused me and caused me to go back and reread after a few sentences. First because "twitching lips" seems so out of context, but also it seemed to me to indicate a deep nefarious plot by the doctor... Simply saying that "he pause" would have been good.

---
Apart from my basic issue with the switch from her to him, this next exchange indicated a transition in character that was a bit abrupt:

"Hey," Claudia started, "I'm the customer and the customer is always right. What would you have done if you were my husband?"

Henry released a long sigh through puckered lips. "I suppose, I wouldn't have married you in the first place if I wanted some prudish type instead."

Two transitions actually, 1) Claudia from being meek to assertive and 2) doc from being by the book to going off the book.

Meaning, by how you had painted both characters up until that point, this shift seemed abrupt.

OK, I hope that gives you some value, and you did nail it in your question: Doc's would have been best to follow, choosing either and sticking with it would have made it easier to make their internal transitions easier to convey.

In my opinion, for what it's worth, to me, as best as my meager abilities can figure...yadda yadda

 

[Penelope Street]

Op_Cit,

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts. I didn't find anything in your post remotely pompous. I'm a fickle reader too, so no offense taken that you did not find the story worth finishing. Learning when and why I reader gave up on a story can be most helpful.

On the specific points you mentioned:

I intended the twisting lips to symbolize Henry's confusion, nothing more. I can see how one could read a devious implication into it.

I don't follow how Henry crosses a line with this statement, "I suppose, I wouldn't have married you in the first place if I wanted some prudish type instead." I think he's still trying to remain professional by dodging the question, not that Claudia is going to let him slide that easily.

One of my regular reviewers has in the past complained about me swapping characters too quickly while writing in third person, however the comments were not about this story. I wrote 'Professional Help' almost a year ago, before I had posted anything anywhere. My confidence level then was nowhere near what it is now, or I would have considered writing from a first person masculine perspective. Considering the majority rated third person as the proper choice, I guess I sort of lucked out.

Take Care,
Penny

 

[Op_Cit]

I don't follow how Henry crosses a line with this statement, "I suppose, I wouldn't have married you in the first place if I wanted some prudish type instead." I think he's still trying to remain professional by dodging the question, not that Claudia is going to let him slide that easily.

It was just that up to that point (other than the lip twitch ) you painted this doc as being anal about being professional.

It's probably my preconceptions from what I've seen on TV/movies (never been to a shrink--not that there's anything wrong with that). I mean that all the things I've seen have them going to great lengths not to give a personal opinion like that.

Again, may just be my preconceptions.

OC

 

[Penelope Street]

OC,

So, it's Henry's comment that implies Claudia isn't pruddish that you found lacking professionalism? I think I see the point, but I aslo think it's still a valid line; especially since she caught him by surprise and forced him out of his comfort zone.

This exchange, where Claudia is so abruptly assertive, is still among my favorites in this story. Pity it didn't work for you. Oh well. Like we needed any proof you can't please everyone.

Thanks for the clarification.

Take Care,
Penny

 

[catalina_francisco]

Catalina, Thanks for your incredible insight. You explained your perspective with such clarity. I can imagine one of your experience rolling their eyes a bit at times during my tale, much as a real-life spy might when reading the average espionage story. That's ok! I was trying to push my limits, so if I stumbled a bit in the eyes of a BDSM connoisseur, no surprise- and no regrets. I shall have to put it on my list of things to do to read one of our works and perhaps learn some more of the 'real' thing. Could I temp you to PM me with a suggestion?


Thanks all.

Take Care,
Penny

LOL, no, rolling eyes is not my thing I'm afraid. Pushing limits is always good, in writing and in many things. You are right in that the majority of BDSM stories stick to the formula of confident Dom, insecure, easily led sub.....but not all.....we have a few which do not reflect that, instead approaching it from a more realistic viewpoint that Doms and subs cover a variety of personalities and are less than perfect as we do not buy into the perfection fantasy. Anyway, I will PM as you suggested.

Catalina