Grassroots Discussion: A7inchphildo

[A7inchPhildo]

Re: The Story As I Understand It

After reading the other comments, I get the feeling that I was the only one to have trouble understanding the plot of this story. So let me go and recapitulate the story as I recall it. Maybe that would help you figure out what parts need to be explained or emphasized so that other readers don’t have the same trouble I did.
I will start with this post first dr. as the previous post really answered a lot of questions for me.

On a honeymoon in Jamaica, the Narrator’s (N) bus hits a goat and a witch puts a spell on him, telling him that his true mate is this 16 year-old native girl (G). (I thought the part about the fresh goat blood on the van leading to his beweitchment was a clever touch, BTW) .
Yes
They return home where he learns his new wife is a cheat.
Yes

Some years later they return to Jamaica and a native named Shellman offers N a drug, presumably because N seems troubled about his wife. N takes it, slips into a near coma, and is abducted and used in a voodoo ceremony where he’s made to have sex with G.
Yes

They returns home again, and N catches his wife in the act. He goes away for a few hours, comes back and has brutal sex with her and basically tells her that he’s gone bankrupt and has no money she can take from him in a divorce. He kicks her out.
Yes

He returns to Jamaica where he has a house, and walks in on some big guy trying to rape G. N & G’s child is there hiding in the corner. N and the rapist kill each other.
Yes


So I don’t know how the witch knew that N was back on the island. I presume that Shellman was working for the witch and was watching for him? Or was that just the magic at work, that it was his fate to be chosen for this ceremony, and Shellman was told to just give the pill to the first tourist he saw?
Ok the witch/priestess for all reasons represents the Voodoo. She is not real, physically only for the story. The shell man is one of a thousand beach combers who walk the beach selling drugs. In this case again the Voodoo is the shell man taken over the shell man's body. Making a path for the events to come.

What was the point of the voodoo act? Just to impregnate the girl? I mean, if that was his fate, aren’t there easier ways to accomplish that (surely a seduction would have been easier)? What was all the cutting and burning for? A presage of his death? If so, why did they want him dead?
Yes and no. She could have suduced him, she did not need to become pregnant. The thought was he was not in control. The female G was an initiated member of the Vodoo. She was the spirit of the wife from 1962. He N was the spirit of the husband from 1962. He was suppose to be also mocking the whole Voodoo belief.
Needeing a concrete way of making her G tie in at the end was easier if she became pregnant. I can see now the idea of her becoming pregnant from a lapse in time is hard for most to swallow. So I don't think he could have been seduced and married within that time lapse no one would ever figure that out. Besides he was still married at that point.
That is part of the reason for the time lapse. He never really cheated on his wife if the time was not real to this world. Only to the Voodoo world.
The burning is to show the unreal part along with the ridding of his alter spirit. The cutting other than it sounded cool, was to give a permanent mark so when he came back to reality. There could be a real question wether or not it really happened.

What was G doing in his room and why was that guy trying to rape her? Just a random act of violence? How did G know he was back? I presume she was there to show him his child? But then, she must have known where he lived. How did she know that? Or was that just his magical fate too? Was G magically linked to him?
Many are missing the set up of the hotel. He is not home. He is stranded in Kingston, coincidence the same time frame as all the others April the 10th. Fate sets up by chance, he N picks the same hotel for refuge as G does. He even is dooped into a room with a roomate he does not know. She G does not know as well, she is not there when he arrives first time. The King Kong man has little importance other than to repeat the foreshadow at the begining of the story. He N still does not know she is G until he is dying, at that time he notices himself in the boy.(reason for her being pregnant) Puts two and two together. That is why the two original spirits connect only for a brief moment. Making a reason the spirit is telling the story. He has not given up yet. And very well you the reader, or person he is telling the tale too could follow the same fate as the man in the story.

What did N’s wife have to do with any of this? Wouldn’t the story have worked out the same had he never been married but just vacationing in Jamaica? Did the witch put a spell on her to make her into a slut? Is the wife there just for the sex scene?
The part about the wife gives a reason. I wanted the character N to have a feasable reason to visit Jamaica. Yes he could have been single. However then what would be the reason for him rejecting the G female the first time? She W also supports the return trip, gives a reason he N would not be interested in Voodoo (he has a life). She W gives reason for him to search out his true love. She W also places that time did not move that Saturday morning.
If he had been alone. Why would he go to Jamaica, and not be willing to take a female? If no one was in the bed when he woke the second time it would be easy to think I made a mistake on the days.
The only reason for the wife is to show purpose, and continuety. I could nix her completely, substututing her for buddies or something. However she W gave a valid reason for him N not wanting to freely have sex with the G. Allowing him to be forced against his own will that he could not control.

---dr.M.

 

[A7inchPhildo]

Well, it’s a good idea for a story, the mix of sex and voodoo I mean (though I wonder why it wasn't set in Haiti. I didn’t know they did voodoo in Jamaica), but other than that I couldn’t tell what the hell was going on.
Laughing you missed some parts. Jamaica also has a big Voodoo folowing. Although not as noted as Haiti. I know the island, and can reference friends. What I know of Haiti is very limited. Voodoo is also common in the States. More so southern states, but it is not limited to Haiti. See previous post on Voodoo facts, and misconceptions.
What was that voodoo ceremony all about?
The ceramony was a way to show the man has a mind. Yet his mind is not as strong as the will of the Voodoo spirit. The man is limited by what he believes to be real. The Voodoo is not limited by reality.
Why did they do it to him?
They did it to prove he was not of free will. If he was willing the story would have no doubts as to wether or not Voodoo can do as it pleases without worring about laws of the real world.
Who the hell was the big guy in the bedroom and why was he killing that girl?
Originally he was going to be the G girls husband. That became too confusing. As I mentioned previous he was there just to full fill the foreshadow.
How did he manage to go bankrupt in ’98 and buy himself a fabulous Jamaican estate in ’99?
Ok you got me there! Other than if he sold the company for cash, and on paper it was a petty amount.
Why did he wipe his shitty dick on her curtains when he’d just had vaginal sex with her?
The whole scene was to imply he wanted to be rid of her making her not only degraded, but cut off, finished, completely out of the picture. The curtains I thought were a cool touch of disrespect. While if she was not scared surely she would have rebuked the occurance.
That whole scene is haunting me. The intension was to give a cut and dry, they are done! I was trying to make it obvious he fucked her to do nothing but degrade her. Driving home the point with the comments and actions. It would be highly unlikely after such behavior they would be getting back together again.

What did this news release from 1962 have to do with anything? The news release is really who the narator is. He is the man slain. But you don't get to know that until the end of the story.
Why did the “Father of Jamaican Art” (& wouldn’t she have been the “Mother” rather than the father?) pick him for this fate, whatever that fate was?
Laughing, I don't know why Jamaicans named her the father. She is quite a female in the picture boobs and all. I was just sticking to actuall facts.

The picking is not selected by the initial group. The spirit can take over anyone. I don't know the goat blood and his meandering made him a good target? (I am not a licensed Voodoo teacher, how do spirits pick people?) considering this question can give a way to identify the man with out really identifying him completely. Perhaps I could tie in a physical similarity from the man in the begining who is slain and the man who is now stumbling blindly.
What was the point of all this? He married a cheating woman, got caught up in some voodoo ceremony, and got killed. It just doesn’t make any sense to me. I don’t see how one thing had anything to do with another.
That is because you missed the end riddle. He is dead he is the voodoo. The Narator telling the story is the spirit. He is telling (whoever is listening or reading) how he can take possesion of you even if you don't believe it.
Now as the story starts he is no longer just the man who was slain in 62 but also the man in 92. Now if he is to be telling the story he is also back again, for another try.

Really, this story needs help on all levels, not least of which is just proper use of language. The errors and misuses go way beyond the nitpicky and seriously affect the readability of the story. That might be why I had so much trouble in understanding what was going on.
If I was not having trouble with the story I would not have posted it here. I have never tried before to write a story where the begining was actually the end continuing.

In another place on the other side of Kingston Jamaica, away from all the celebration there is a newly married couple of wealth which is peacefully bedding down for their consummation of vows.

“couple…which…”? It should be “couple…who…” You don’t use “which” when referring to people.
First he is not refering to people. Yes it is a word play as well.

Should one use "that" or "which"? In syntax the concepts of restrictive clause and non-restrictive clause (or descriptive clause) can perhaps most easily be explained by contrasting two examples:

Given a litter of puppies that includes two Dalmatians: The Dalmatian puppy that was born yesterday is tiny.

This is restrictive - the born yesterday resolves ambiguity - by identifying which of the two Dalmatian puppies is being referred to.

Given a litter of puppies in which only one is a Dalmatian: The Dalmatian puppy, which was born yesterday, is tiny.

This is non-restrictive - The born yesterday provides additional information because the question of identity is already resolved, there being only one Dalmatian puppy.

A restrictive clause serves to disambiguate and is not preceded by a comma, whereas a non-restrictive clause simply adds descriptive information and is separated from its referent by a comma.

Some writers follow a normative rule that "which" should be used only in non-restrictive clauses and "that" should be used only in restrictive clauses.
~~~~~~

Of what sort or kind; what; what a; who.
And which they weren and of what degree.
- Chaucer

It is not really a big issue for me, if it seems to be more of a stumbling block than intended play, I will sub it out.


The morning news runs out as the papers and radio broadcast dampen slightly the news of the victory so earnestly welcomed by the Jamaican people.

“Morning news runs out”? You mean they ran out of news? Or the news came out? And how to papers and broadcast “dampen slightly” the news? Because they’re wet?
Ok funny! I see your point
So they return from their honeymoon and he seems to be happy as a clam, then he tells us:

At the top of the list being this woman whom I married. She was by every description a man could give, a looker, a real “10”. This might seem to be the ultimate wife to most who desire a flirtatious woman. The obsession that has consumed her was not exactly what I thought of when we married.

It turns out that what the author means is that she was fucking everything in sight.
Yes that is what the author is saying. with out saying it. Again we have “This” as a pronoun for a woman instead of “She”,
"She" gives the imression of respect. "This" was used in place of "it" giving her no title status. To refer to a dog or table as "it" is fine to refer to a person as "it" is utterly disrespectful. "This" is placing her in a category she is not special to him just another female
but worse, I blew right by this paragraph thinking that, okay, she likes to flirt. Flirting and fucking around are two very different things. It was only by combing back through what I’d already read looking for some explanation of her behavior that I finally understood what the narrator was trying to tell us here. I won’t even mention the use of past perfect tense (“The obessesion that has consumed her…” when he’s talked in past tense. There are inexplicable verb shifts all through this story.
you don't love me anymore? OK I am over it! I can't give you a good reason for not making a point blank statement she was fucking around. Yes flirting may lead to fucking around, but no where does it actually state she is a whore.
Now checking, you are correct that is not a quote. He is refering to her.

His reactions to everything that happens are totally bizarre to me. He wakes up after this near-death voodoo experience and he feels great. He doesn’t even think about what heppened or wonder whether it was a dream or tell us that he couldn’t remember it.
The point of him waking up feeling great is to show this was not a physical occurance. Some stranger on the beach offers him a drug and he takes it, just like that. (And what the hell is “horse grain”? Oats? or do you mean horsehide?)
Laughing hysterically, I have no clue as to what dugs look like. Should I have said aspirin? I was trying for something a bit more exotic. Maybe I should have watched the movie Matrix. I hear they used colored pills. I couldn't even tell you what pot looks like as a bush. I know the smell, but not the basics.
So between his strange lack of reaction to what’s going on and the difficulty in understanding the story at all, the rest of your questions seem to be rather trivial, but I’ll have a go.
please do
The dialect: It was interesting at first, but it quickly gets distracting. It’s not good. I think you could have used a couple of examples at the start just so we get the flavor of the language, and then he could have said how his ears became accustomed to it and he could understand what they were saying.
That is what I am going to do. I think it is best to eliminate the real dialect, and place in some playfully understood words. Then just narrow it down quickly. I would never say his ears became accustomed, unless they were martians. The reader can assume he fudged his way through conversations or understood. If they need to be told he can understand now they are reading the wrong story, cause this story does not tell anything. You have to gather the pieces on your own.
It begs the question of just who is doing the translating for us. If he understands them, then we don’t need the dialect, and if he doesn’t understand what they’re saying than who’s supplying the translations?
Soon to change that. The translation was not intended as part of the story. It was only for the reader if they did not know the word. It was a poor attempt to keep the reader from having to go look up the word. Not that they could very easily.
Are there enough erotic scenes? I guess so. It’s hard to say. I thought the voodoo sex was pretty good, but any erotic heat was dwarfed by my confusion over why they were doing this to him. The scene with his wife was totally confusing. He spits on the crack of her ass, so I assume he’s going to have anal sex with her. But no, he’s in her vagina. But then he wipes his “shitty dick” on her curtains. So what happened? Beats me.
Strike three on that scene! You said it best, what happened? The scene had no basis other than to ditch the wife. I do not want it taking away from the whole rest of what is happening. From what Rumple said about the sex in the begining I am seriously thinking spice up the honey moon. Cut down on the wife scenes, exclude the sex with her, and get back into the story as intended.
Time displacement: Don’t understand why this has to be spread out over so many years. It seems like it could have been done in an initial honeymoon in Jamaica where he was involved in the voodoo ceremony, then back to the states, then back to Jamaica for his death. But see, I really don’t understand how all these things were connected, so I might be missing something.
The time has a place. One couple are slain 62' giving time for Narrator to be of age 92'. Narrator married giving time for girl to be of age before next trip. Girl and Narrator have sex then giving time for child to be of a certain age.
Is it boring between the erotic scenes? No, I don’t think so. The voodoo ceremony was probably the best thing in there.
yeah since it was not really restricted like the rest of the story it flowed better. All I had to add for clues was the girl, sex, and a way to make the dream somehow transfer into the real world. The sex and girl were a given the cut/scar was not perplexing. Unfortunate I think I may have spent too much time making a riddle, and not enough time letting the story flow free.
Did you get a sense of real feelings from the story? You mean his feelings? Or feelings about what happened? In the first case, no. He seemed to lack any feelings about anything that happened to him. Well you know now he lacked feeling about himself because he is dead When he came home and found his wife fucking his friend and went out for a few hours and then came back and sat down and started ‘teasing’ his wife, I was just incredulous. Then I thought, “Oh. They must have an open marriage.” But no, he’s just playing with her. He’s really pissed. Or is he?
He was suppose to portray really demented pissed off. Not being rational.
If you mean feelings about what happened, then I also have to say no, because I’m still not sure at all what it ws that happened.
That is the best thing you could say. I can see it in my mind, of course I can. Again if I didn't loose you in the begining you might have caught some of the other things.
That is not my intention to have lost readers. Who wants to read a story they can't place?

This is why I have thought perhaps turn the whole thing into a sexual jambaree taking the death part out completely. Making it a fiction story of what most view Voodo as. That would easily fit in the non-consent category.
I have had my fun of creating it, and trying to make it do circles with mental games. It would seem it is just too indepth for my abilities to come off as being clear. I refrained from posting because it has no way of making sure the reader fully understands the facts behind it.

Loop holes Not really. There are areas that make the reader believe they have misread. Intentionally decieving, after all we are talking about Voodoo as a spirit world meets reality.

Tense and some gramatical errors I am sure there are. I have refined it several times. Even had it looked at. I have changed some since. Like I said those are my week points. It is not that I don't know them it is I read over my own with out notice of them. Even while reading aloud. I am real good at making the same mistake over, and over once it is down. In this situation where the tense changes I am more likely to trip.
---dr.M.

Thanks for the honest report. I will play with the idea of making two stories one much like the one above. Intended to be a real mind tease, yet with some things straitened out. And another that is just a fun read with no riddle just an adventure, with wacky sex.

Might I add I am not a professional, infact I only write for fun. I have been self teaching the art of writings for a while. If you were to view older stories you would all eek! Big time!
I enjoy writing very goodly LOL, but I make mistakes. This story was to give me a break from the same old broken record "Jane and Dick have sex". On a porch, in a car, at the office, in a bar. Jane is beautiful, Dick is horny, Jane likes anal, Dick is corny. They both meet on the street, Dick is hard, Jane is in heat. They have found one another, now if they wern't sister and brother!

Thanks,

Phil

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Well, I’ve got to say that Phildo has given us one of the more enlightening and interesting discussions here. I’ve read most of the comments and responses, and I see now that the story Phil wanted to tell was a lot more involved and ambitious than I’d thought, and that’s good. But that also points up the difficulty he had in making that story clear and understandable to us, which is bad.

I have to agree with each and every one of MLyon’s points, and I think Pure hit on the very crux of the problem when he was talking about sequences and giving the reader enough information to allow him to explain things to his own satisfaction. It comes down to a question of how much can an author expect from his readers? How hard can you reasonably expect them to work in trying to understand your story? I think Phildo expects a lot, and I think this is precisely where he has his main problem. I think he asks too much of his readers.

Case in point is the dates and time sequence. Personally, when I was reading this, I blew by all those little datelines at the beginning of each section. I’m not about to stop and examine the date and go back and look at the previous date and subtract one from the other and all that kind of thing. I figure that if the dates and the passage of time are that critical, the author’s going to call it to my attention in some other way, emphasize it some way. Phildo never does.

There's a way they tell you things in the army that authors should keep in mind: (1) You tell them what you’re going to tell them, (2) You tell them, and (3) You tell them what you told them. Points and events that are critical to a story have to be hammered home and underlined, not just mentioned and dropped with the expectation that the reader will somehow pick up on them.

Take the mix up with the rooms at the end that resulted in the Narrator's sharing a room with the girl. Honestly, I didn’t even notice all that stuff about his having to share a room. Just didn’t notice it at all. I even thought the guy was back at his own home. Why? Well, for one thing, it’s a difficult story to read and by that time I was pretty exhausted (yes, readers get tired out too. That’s why we put in places where they can rest and digest what they’ve read.) But I also missed it because I expect that if he were told he had to double up with a stranger in a hotel, he’d be kind of outraged and he would have had some outraged reaction. I mean, in my experience this is kind of unheard of, that you have to share a room, and I would have been fuming about it.

Same thing with his telling us that his wife was fucking around. That’s a pretty important discovery, and you’d expect him to go on about it for a paragraph or two and have a pretty strong emotional reaction. But he just tosses it off with no more emphasis than when he tells us he was sweaty after the accident. It doesn’t stand out. There’s no real sense of important/unimportant in the story, and that makes it seem monotonic and leads to confusion, because we can't pick out what’s important from what’s just background information.

In the same way, I have no idea why we should connect that 1962 passage at the start of the story with the guy in 1992. We're given no connection, nothing to tie the two occurances together. I mean, if we'd been told that a white man and a big Jamaican had stabbed and cut each other to death, then maybe--and just maybe--we might suspect a connection. Otherwise, why should we see these two events as connected? Because they both happened in Kingston?

As a final example, take when he wakes up after the Voodoo ceremony, or dream, or whatever it was. Phildo says he intended there to be time confusion there to throw doubt of the reality of the Voodoo ceremony, but me, I just thought he woke up 24 hours later, at 5:00 AM on the next day. I realize now that there was something about playing golf on Saturday or something, but that just went right by me when I was reading the story. The days of the week and his golf game weren’t emphasized, and so I just ignored that information and supplied my own interpretation, that he had been gone for 24 hours. If I’d written the story, I’d probably have the guy waking up thinking he’d slept 24 hours and worried that he’d missed his Saturday golf game, then run into his buddy who asks him if he’s ready to hit the links, which would make him realize that no time at all had passed. Something that drives home the point like that.

A story’s a lot like a painting: there are areas of sharp detail in the foreground, and there are dimmer, shadowy areas in the background that aren’t as important. I think of it like a relief map, where some parts are flat and featureless, and other parts have to be in high relief so that they stab you in the eye. I think this story was too ‘flat’ in that regard, and that’s what made it hard to understand.

---dr.M.

 

[Pure]

hi phil,

yes, I guess mab missed a connection. rumple sorta had it, with his impression of a typo. I had an impression of some similarity, but didn't think quite right. I wondered if it was the *same event, a la Groundhog day.

Phil:The female G was an initiated member of the Vodoo. She was the spirit of the wife from 1962. He N was the spirit of the husband from 1962.

The reason we missed, imo, is that the parallel is not clear, and there seems a misfit at several points. The 1962 story said man and wife, both tourist, iirc (both white?). The final event is the man tourist and a local girl(black?) he's seen twice, and isn't obviously connected with; further the man has a wife who's not there.

I do now see the burglary parallel, but as several readers noted, the burglar figure is hard to fit in (your husband plan being abandoned; presumably because that would *hurt the parallel).
{If you want my suggestion, have the 1962 story involve a man and a lover, slain by the lover's husband. THEN unfold the later story, and use your original husband idea [for the last scene], but with a different twist.}


This discussion illustrates the intricacies of having stories that are supposed to make sense on a couple levels, including the everyday world level. (Seen the Shyamalyan[sp?] movies? like the one with Bruce Willis as psychologist?)

I appreciate your explanations, am glad I figured one thing, that a physical sex encounter in this universe did not happen. There just isn't enough by way of signs of the other universe, in the rest of the story.

The length of your explanation sorta proves the point I was making, and illustrating, about how events might be made sense of, from the author's pov.

Have a lot at Wide Sargassso Sea sometime for a look at obeah magic, romance, etc. It's the prequel to Jane Eyre.

It's to your credit this was no hack porn job, but one into which a lot of thought was put.

J.

 

[A7inchPhildo]

Thanks for the imput on the story. Really I am not discouraged at all. More enlightened if anything. I like the, (1) You tell them what you’re going to tell them, (2) You tell them, and (3) You tell them what you told them.

That cracks me up! Yet is true I suppose in more ways than not.

I may still post the story after it has been more suited with several of the suggestions. It will take some time, but I think I can make it a worth while easier read. Just to see how it is taken.

While I think the basic idea deserves a light story. That I should be able to handle. Thinking along the lines of using pieces that were liked, and placing it in a small weekend time frame.

MLyons I did read and reply to your post as well, Sorry I lost the reply. Don't ask, very frustrating. I will remake the reply. Thank you. However I did have a little problem following your quotes. I knew most of them, but a couple I couldn't seem to figure out.

Lying
Rumple
pure
BT
dr.m
MLyons
Thank you all for the reality check.

Phil

 

[A7inchPhildo]

Hi A7inchPhildo,

As always, I have refrained from reading any others' comments before I post my own, so my thoughts may be rehashes of what's already been said. I'm not as good at this as some others are... I apologize for that...
Trust me all the coments are appreciated even if they are as simple as I like or don't like.
I really like the idea of the story... of mixing the Voodoo religion in with a story about sex, love, and betrayal. It's a fascinating idea. Unfortunately its execution here, I think, falls a bit flat. It's simply very hard to know what's going on. This story took reading, and re-reading to really get an idea of how the events unfolded, how the narrator felt about them, and what in fact was going on. It was very difficult to read, both from a story standpoint, and from a grammar standpoint as well. I think it would have behooved you to really have gone through the story with a fine tooth comb and smoothed out some of the awkwardness, vagueness and grammatical errors BEFORE you submitted it for discussion. I think the comments you'd have gotten back would have been more rewarding than what you might get now.
A big part of that seems to fall on the over complexity of the story.
The most glaring problem that I had was that I simply had a hard time following it. Perhaps I'm just an idiot--and that is MORE than possible, and I could be the only one who had this problem. The story just seemed... disjointed, like you didn't have a specific purpose in writing it, yet you seem to have written it to fulfill a purpose nonetheless. The ending is especially confounding. He dies, he has a child, but other than the witch's "prophecy" coming true--basically having had it forced upon him by a black pill, two guys in a boat, and a Voodoo sexual ceremony, I don't really see what he learned or gained from the whole experience. There's fantastic potential here, but the story isn't near fleshed out enough or focused enough for it to have really realized it.
I can see now the story needs to be clear to the reader. Starting the story as theending was not as easy or as clear as I originally intended.
Another issue I had was with characterization, and a little too much "tell" and not enough "show". Everyone but the narrator seems like a stick figure to me. His wife is probably one of the most potentailly interesting characters in the whole story, but we barely know her. If we knew her better (whether she's wicked or not doesn't matter), we'd certainly better appreciate the narrator's hatred toward her by the end. We'd certainly get more out of her husband's grudge-fuck before he leaves her. Again, it ties in with the "prophecy" but.. only by the thinnest of threads. There simply doesn't seem to be a cohesive throughline that I could follow. There's potentially great, character establishing dialogue that is simply passed over as the narrator opts to tell us what happens rather than show us. These kind of choices really made it hard for me to immerse myself into the environment the narrator is in, and deal with the charaters he encounters on his level.
The real problem falls more that I did not want the other characters to have a real indepth part.
I think that's enough of my rambling, pointless overview. Now on to your specific questions:



Well, that depends. Are there enough erotic scenes for you? That just depends on what kind of story you're trying to write. I thought the number of scenes was fine, I just had some issues with the detail and quality with which those scenes were presented. The voodoo ceremony was excellent, probably the most interesting section in the whole story. I still wished there was some more detail, however. I have a feeling you might have held back a little, and I wanted to know what else you had up your sleeve. The wife grudge fucking was the kind of thing that's right up my alley, and I wish that were explored a little bit more too, not necessarily in terms of the sex itself, but the events and feelings that LED to that sex scene! Once again, though, I understand why you wouldn't want to linger too long on the actual sex. You had a grander story to tell, afterall--I just wasn't clear on exactly what it was.
Laughing you are not alone. My thoughts at this point is to break up the story into the original idea as eight stories and if the main story ever comes together as an easier read then I will post it as well.


The problem I had with the ending wasn't that he died, but simply WHY did all this happen? It seemed to come out of the blue, the big hulky guy choking this girl in his room. What was she doing there? Was she about to give him an explanation that we never got? Who was the hulky guy? It was all just so confusing that my head was spinning. Some tie-in with the rest of the story would have been nice... some realization, or understanding. After I read the last line, I simply didn't understand why you wrote it, or what I was to get out of it.

The basic loop was he dies at the end. Yet now he is telling a story to someone. That someone is you. He sheds a slight forshadow of the events past, and to come. The spirit of this man, and how he takes over the body in the story you are being told. The confusing part is the narator is really the man from 62 and the man from 92 and the spirit telling the story.

I'm the kind of guy who's ALL FOR more sex, but on the other hand... since I don't know who the big guy was, or, at that point, who the girl was, and in the meantime, why the narrator would simply stand by and watch a girl be raped in front of him, concluding the story with a rape before the confrontation just doesn't make much sense.
Yeah this seems to be a common area of loosing the reader. I have explained it a few times now. She was the female from the ceremony, who is also the spirit of the lady from 62. The big man was the burglar. He/ narrator was suppose to have walked into the situation after drinking. They were by chance sharing a common room.


Not really. Like I said, I had to read several passages a couple times before I felt I had an inkling of what was happening and when. And again the overall question that kept circling my mind was "Why? Why is he telling me all this?" Not that you don't have a reason, I just never was able to figure out what it was.
From the other persons comments and yours it is fairly certain the story needs much more clarity from the begining.


At first it bothered me a little, but after all is said and done, I thought it played a part in setting up the environment that an alternative method may not have done as well. I'm not sure though. There might have been better ways to do it, but I didn't mind this way.
I still kind of like the touch myself. However I think it would be best to make the words more like english, and cut the translations all together.


I think you really give us a lot of extraneous information that can be cut. There are a lot of details that just don't seem important that slow down the reading of your story. I imagine alot of them are included for mood's sake, but I really think that the writing could be greatly economized and still give off the same atmosphere. I give an example or two below.



Sometimes, but... not very often. As I said, I didn't really get a feel for any of the characters other than the narrator. And without understanding the characters he's interacting with, it was sometimes VERY difficult to understand his reactions to them. In many cases, there was too much narrative, and not enough dialogue, I thought.

Part of that comes from the lack of wanting other main characters. And some of it was because I was too involved in the whole conecting pieces I left some of the characters blank.

Through several of the devices you used, I did get a sense of environment throughout the story. I thought you did well in that sense, but the way you did it seemed to sacrifice efficiency in story-telling in the process. For more details, see some of my specific comments below.

Thank you.

This question just confuses me. I wouldn't be manipulating any story into any category. I'd just ... tell the story. What feels right to you? What is true to what you envisioned? Then again, I don't write for categories, or for the most reads necessarily. I just write what I think feels right. I'd rather it be read because it's interesting, not because it falls into a specific category. I guess I'm not the best person to answer this question.
I didn't start out with a category in mind. Then it was thought the obvious category was romance. After reading Rumples comment, and doing a bit of research I guess mind control is the better suited category.

OK. Now to the last "stream of consciousness" section of my critique. I've pulled out a few quotes from your story and will try to comment in specifics on the general points I've made above, in addition to pointing out some typical awkward grammar problems that I encountered:
Getting my mental telepathy abilities out to see the quotes. Ok go for it!
--


I have a couple of questions about this. This may very well be the crux of the story somehow. I really don't know, but as it stands, I don't understand what relevence it has. Why is this here? Maybe I'm just missing something glaringly obvious--forgive me if I am. The other question I have is The date is why is this written in present tense, while the rest of the story is in past tense? It implies significance beyond the confines of the story itself, but for the life of me, I can't see it.
--
The first date was to show who the man/ Voodoo spirit really came from. If the tense is improper that is because I become confused easily. I do recon it should have been past as well.
--


This may be nitpicky, but I don't know whether in 1992 there was much to research on the net... in terms of resorts. The net was really just getting started, and most businesses hadn't found their footing there, yet, let alone Jamaican resorts. Perhaps I'm wrong--again that's super nit-picky though.
--
Nit picky! I'd say, it was. I really thought about that before I wrote it. I don't recall looking up resorts on the net at the time. And yes the net was very limited back in 92. However the date was 92, and to make it seem as if the person was really interested/excited I figured it could stay. Never thought some one was going to pick up on it.
--


This is bad grammar, and awkward structure. Technically there should at least be a semi-colon here, and if it were me, I'd rewrite a bit and separate them into two sentences. At first it's not clear that by "disturbed" you mean he was interrupted. I thought you meant he was upset, or unsettled.
--
OK yes, it was previously mentioned. Along with the double "I".

--


This is a fragment.
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Damn fragments kill me everytime, They just sound so good from the Boston accent.
--


Awkward, and incorrect. Needs at least a semi-colon, or to be reworded into a couple sentences.
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I will believe you but haven't a clue.
--


What problem? This is an example of how laborious the story is to read. Up to this point, there is no indication to either the reader, the narrator, or the woman that there is a problem to be solved, and what she says here is just simply confusing. I can understand if the point is that she says these things out of the blue, but the narrator doesn't at least acknowledge that HE'S confused, which leaves the readers feeling like they must have missed something.
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The witch is refering to what the man has spoken in the previous. About the bus accident.
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listened = listening?
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It sounds correct but isn't listened past tense?


The question mark throws me here... is she asking a question, or is she telling him that he isn't finished?
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I really thought she was questioning. But ... ! would work just as well.
--


So the girl was standing right there? Where did she come from? She was on the bus with them? The story does not make this clear. "The other was a serpent." I have no idea what this is in reference to. His other love is a serpent? Why not use dialogue to tell this part of the story, tell us what the woman said, specifically rather than having the narrator explain it, it might have more impact in terms of us evaluating her as a character and her legitimacy as a mysterious seer, or a hopeless wacko.
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I can see what you are saying that might help clarify some as well.
--


Aside from the awkwardness I've already discussed in other passages that seems to be present in the second sentence here, I also get confused by the last sentence. Why the "I thought."? More importantly though, this whole paragraph brings up another issue I had with the story, the inclusion of unnecessary facts and details. Waiting for the luggage to be unpacked, and whether or not the narrator's bags were on top are things I simply don't need to know and clutters up the story. In fact, practically this whole passage seems superfluous. The only new and seemingly relavent information (in the sense of setting the mood) was the fact that the trip took 14 hours, and the narrator was sweating afterward. These two facts could have been much more economoically communicated as the action moved forward, rather than taking a few sentances to give us mundane details that aren't really important enough to mention for the story you're trying to tell.
Actually the purpose for the scene was to imply the Jamaican Paul waited until all the others were gone to drive home "That she feally is a witch" and not wanting to discuss it any further.
One last thing about this passage. "I was dripping sweat and relieved to be here at last..." shouldn't here = there? IS the narrator still there, even as he tells the story, or are we switching suddenly to the present tense? It's nit-picky, but these are the kinds of things that slowed down my absorption of the story, and made me have to re-read passages in order to understand what was happening. I think you probably get the idea, and hey maybe some of these issues I've brought up are style choices. It's your choice to decide to ignore me or not. In any case, the rest of the story is littered with what I thought were some very awkward and unclear passages, and I won't belabor the point by pointing out each one of them.
--
Looking at the passage as I was just going back and noting on here. Dam sucks to be me you caught it before I did.
--


Referencing the readers as "you" always seems to bother me a bit when it comes out of the blue like this. It's not for me to say if it's wrong, but I just don't understand the reason for it. It seems to me that if you're going to do this, then the readers should somehow play some small part in the story you are telling. Perhaps the narrator is telling this story to someone he knows, or to someone who has a special interest (and who the narrator assumes has special biases) that might relate to the overall tale in some way. If not, then I don't understand the purpose of mentioning the reader in this way at all. Again... perhaps I'm wrong, but in this particular case, it distracted me. Also, why the single quotes around the word "bitch"?
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I fully agree with you. Except here he is talking directly to the lister/reader. Fully intended this to be a personal one on one tale.
--


This description gives me no indication of what this woman looks like, or whether I'd find her attractive. Of course, perhaps that doesn't matter. It really depends on your purpose in writing the story, but she DOES get a good old-fashioned grudge fuck later on, and I'd really like to get some better idea of what she looked like, and heck, even what she was like in general before that happened. This is an example, I think, of too much "tell", and not enough "show".
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I know sorry, she was not important to me. She was 5'2", 115 lbs., 32C, shoulder length brown curly hair, always smiling, and looking for trouble with her beautiful brown eyes.
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Huh? You just seem to be glancing over too much information here. At some unknown date he discovers that his wife is cheating on him, but then he gets back together with her. Now she's giving him cheerless smiles with looks of "wonder about her marriage?". I get the gist...I think, but I'm still not completely clear in what's happening between them. Again, this could be a problem of the lack of characterization that really limits the appeal of this story to me. His wife is simply no more a real character to me than the narrator's clothes are. Not only do I not KNOW what's happening, but I feel so "out of the loop" that I only vaguely CARE. Again, it could partially be that you're telling us that the narrator's wife is "wicked" rather than showing us and letting us draw that conclusion for ourselves.
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I hope by telling you you are not alone makes you feel better?
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"dejected" just seems the strangest word to use there... it implies a context and meaning that doesn't fit with what the narrator is doing with his vomit. In some ways it's a style choice, but I would not have used this word. Is he really casting his vomit down by lowering its spirits, or disheartening it?
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OK it was a play on words. At least everyone saw it.
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There are several quotation mark use issues. This just requires a good critical read through to catch some of the punctuation and grammatical mistakes.
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Between quotes, commas, and tense. You will see those are my weak areas. I generally write around the issues, and not through them. Really I was trying.
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Did he die? I guess he did... but what was he saying? Is there a grander point to this story that I'm missing? Where is the payoff for all that he's been through. I don't understand what clarity he's discovered, or what meaning his entire experience had for him. These last three paragraphs confuse me terribly.
The pay off was suppose to be the reader realizing at this point the narrator has been dead all along. Or is he? {scary music playing} whooo Voodoo don't work on you?

[Phildo Cackleing in the back ground]

Enough. As always, it's very important that I emphasize that I DON'T KNOW SHIT, so take what I say with a grain of salt. Make use of it or don't, it's your choice. I'd be very interested to see how this story turns out when you finally do post it, however. There's great potential here, it just doesn't seem to follow through quite yet. Thanks for listening, but again, this is only one
guy's under-educated opinion.

Thank God there is another uneducated one here.

Thank you for your time as well it all has been really appreciated.

Phil

 

[MLyons]

Phil,

I'm not really sure what more I can contribute here, but I feel I owe you big time in exchange for your thoughts on my own story...

I guess my major concern is your idea that you wanted to bring the characters to the background... not giving them an "in depth" part as you say. My understanding then is that you want the "fate of Voodoo" to be the overriding driving force of the story, and that is a cool idea. Unfortunately, by making the characters so lifeless and 2-dimensional I think you've defeated your own purpose. There's a difference between the characters being pre-ordained to a certain fate and them simply being drones that lifelessly walk the path. Even in a play, with a script that must be followed, we believe what's happening because the actors bring the characters to life. Granted, what you're attempting to do is very complex, especially in trying to bring to the forefront this idea that the characters are restricted by something beyond themselves, without making it so bloody obvious that the reader figures it all out on the first page. Still, I think the characters could do with a little more fire--a more active part as it were in bringing their pre-determined fate to pass. I think ultimately that might make the story more dynamic and interesting, and at the same time might give you a more natural and more liberating way of giving us clues as to what's happening, without having to resort to complex plays on words, or hyper-specific narrative phrases.

Then again, perhaps I'm misnterpretting your intentions. That's just my two cents.

 

[A7inchPhildo]

Phil,

I'm not really sure what more I can contribute here, but I feel I owe you big time in exchange for your thoughts on my own story...

You don't owe me anything. I do this for fun and fun alone. Some people watch TV to relax, I like to read.
However you have just given me an excellent idea.

I guess my major concern is your idea that you wanted to bring the characters to the background...
My understanding then is that you want the "fate of Voodoo" to be the overriding driving force of the story, and that is a cool idea. Unfortunately, by making the characters so lifeless and 2-dimensional I think you've defeated your own purpose.
Yeah I have figured that out. What to do?
There's a difference between the characters being pre-ordained to a certain fate and them simply being drones that lifelessly walk the path. Even in a play, with a script that must be followed, we believe what's happening because the actors bring the characters to life.
Bingo! This will take some time to do. I will need to cancel a big portion of the current story to bring in this feature and not over word the simple plot. What an idea! I can give life to the people with out giving importance to the characters. Simple make it a stage play. This way the actors can take the direct descriptions as they are not actually the people in the play, just actors. This also helps with the narrator problem. In the begining and can explain the translations very easily.

This is exciting just thinking how this also increases the level of erotic moments as well if a whole auditorium is watching. Instead of an applaud light I can have a mystery clue importance signal.



Then again, perhaps I'm misnterpretting your intentions. That's just my two cents.

Well your two cents just caused me a hole bunch of work. So here is a wooden nickle back, and keep the change.