Grassroots Discussion: Psychocatblah 7-04

[Black Tulip]

I don't have any 'finished' stories right now. First I need to rewrite my last contribution and there's still a Memorable Lesson part 2 waiting for me.

I'll be more than happy to butcher anybody else's work though.
Hoping to be off in the beginning of August but that is not definite yet.

 

[neonlyte]

Hi Neon and cant; hi Black.

And anyone else who's around.

Volunteers for July 18 or after?

(state any extended periods you'll be out of town)

Pure

I'm pretty much out of things until mid September as far as any concentrated input is concerned. I intend to spend more time here when I can.

neon

 

[cantdog]

I lost track of his other hands in the sex scene (Osiric's other hands). How many hands does he have?

I was to have been back from Burlington the 18th, and now I'm not even going, so I can be available. To volunteer for what?

cantdog

 

[Lying Eyes]

Lying Eyes said,

Erotic horror and incest... I'm running away...


With all due respect, this is a writers forum. Some writers write about unpalatable acts--read 'Macbeth'? 'The Black Cat'?

There are some *acts*, certainly, that 'scare me away'. For example, seeing someone get a knife in the stomach, slowly; or getting his head cut off, swiftly.

Yet I enjoyed the hell out of 'Kill Bill 1'.

I'd hope everyone here could appreciate the distinction.

But Lying, of course, we all have our tastes, and your thoughtful postings--and all others-- are most appreciated on those works you choose to enjoy.

LOL, Kill Bill is in my DVD player right now. Neither erotic horror or incest is "my thing". I had read an erotic horror story just a few days ago which while creepy and had almost no erotic part worked very well so I could appreciate it. And erotic horror movies like the old 70's British gothic films like "The Countess Dracula" and "Vampire Lovers" I have seen and was entertained.

I did glance a little at this story before last sunday. While I doubt my feedback would be of little use I will share a few of my thoughts on what I read.

Well incest, epecialy father/daughter is extra creepy to me so I normaly avoid it like the plague. This story is in the erotic horror and the repulsiveness of the act does come through in what little I read so in a way it does fit in that genre even though I wished it was listed as incest. Normaly if a writer puts incest in a non incest genre it would be a good idea to hint at it in the description. Some readers may get angry that incest was slipped in when they did not expect it. In Erotic horror that is of less a concern since a reader is expecting to be creeped out anyway.

Osiric, Barnabas, Nemesio! And in contrast Thomas! The three names seem so out of place for a story set in the modern day that the story quickly loses its crediabilty as a realistic scenerio to me. If it was set in the 1600's Europe the names would seem more fitting. Though if you had written something like, 'He called himself Osiric, his real name like his humble beginings long forgotten,' then the odd name would seem okay to me.

His fingers would trace over the things in her dresser, which were mostly pictures of strangers cut out of magazines that would smile back at her as if they were her friends. But she had no friends.

This is good because it lets the reader know she has redeeming values and a bit innocent. She longs for real affection she isnt getting from those around her taking advantage of her body.

Other accoutrements on her dresser were things her father gave her, girlish things like a silver brush and mirror, a little jewelry box, figurines of angels that it took all of her will not to smash on a daily basis.

Her father clearly sees an innocent girl. I guess what your going for is evil is attracted to the oposite and wants to currupt the purity. But the fact that she wants to smash the angels shows she isnt so inocent anymore. If you wanted to show she still had a pure heart you should have her feel like doing something else to the angels. Maybe hide them in shame rather then destroy them in anger.

Osiric was an elderly man, nearly 80, his daughter a fraction of his age.

Was it really necessary to make him that old? A creepy old man can be 60. 80 makes it less believable as a story.

She was born at the height of his power when he was leading the occult group, "The Hunters," before he had left the group to form his own order. It was with brutal experiments and sacrifices that eventually led to his downfall. He was sent to prison for these brutal murders and mutilations where he was locked away for nearly two decades while his lawyers fought long and hard on his right to religious freedom.

I'm just not believing any of this. Its hard to create a story about a powerful cult that gets away with murders in the modern day (unless you count the Taliban as a cult, but that is another story...) If it was set in the past I might be able to buy it.

Osiric had an empire to rebuild, enemies to crush and little time left in his life to do it in.

Empire to build! Further losing its crediability

But for now, for now he was going to tuck his daughter into bed. She was the last symbol of his former glory.

Symbol of his former glory? Something like his magnificent mansion now falling apart would be a symbol of his former glory. If anything she would be a symbol of former purity, if he had fathered her years ago before he had become involved in the cult and had a good heart.

her mother dead after a nasty fight with cancer and her in jail for stealing.

Maybe she isnt as innocent as I first thought if she started a life of crime. Nothing is said why she ended up stealing. I'm guessing the death of her mother lead her to drugs which lead to stealing. Or maybe she wanted to be in jail since she thought she would be safe from him there. I can only guess because you didn't fill me in.

Charlotte shifted a little as her father's hand reached first to her chest then down under the covers. She let out a soft moan that might've been a plea, but she instead leaned back against the headboard and thought about the euphoric sensation from the drug.

The moan seems to infer she wants him, but the fact you wrote 'might've of been a plea' sugests otherwise. I'm not sure if the character wants him or not. Maybe it was your intention to confuse the reader, maybe she is confused. The fact she leans away and enjoys the drug now says she is repulsed by him and using the drug to cover the emotional pain.

He let his hands like spiders creep down, parting her thighs slightly,

His hands creep down like spiders! Well I'm creeped out, this is the part that I run away...

 

[psychocatblah]

Chapter 2, slower, even delicate in comparisum to 1, simply reinforces degradation, complete and utter subrogation is indicated without any explanation for why she should perform this role. She has no reward, no motive, no pleasure; drugs taken to dull pain not to excuse behaviour.

A great deal has been said by others about Chpt 1. In my view it contains both too much and too little. I understand why you want to plunge readers directly into a spiral of degradation. Have more faith in your writing abilities, I could have used some additional explanation of the cult, the family and why Charlotte allows herself to be used.

For me, this experience is likened to viewing a collective art show, twenty-five artists, single canvases all on the same theme, I want to know how they reached that stage in their painting, why that theme? why that style? But then, that's just me.

neon (wills)

Something I was talking about with my husband in the car while we were driving was that I'm starting to get the sinking feeling that I've neglected the point of why the story ended as it did and why Charlotte didn't really get out of it. I think I need to revisit the really big revelatatory chapter to maybe spell it out a little. But basically she's punished for her complacency. Granted, the only way to survive all of this is to be useful, but she does have means to escape in some ways. The drugs are just meant to keep her under control, keep her from escaping too far otherwise she's out on the streets with a very expensive coke habit.

I do have sort of a side story written about what the cult is, I just couldn't really find a place to really insert it. It's sort of different things to different characters as well, Barnabas believes in the magic of it, Osiric/Thomas just want the money from it.

I'm overwhelmed and excited by all of the comments, though! It really does help me to see "Yes, this is what I had intended." or "No... that's not what I meant." or "Hm... not what I was going for but wow, cool!"

And I did delete the comment because all it said was they didn't find it believable to snort coke and fall asleep. I left it up for a while but eventually just thought that the comment undermined the point of how severe her addiction was. Whether my friend was bsing me or not, she claimed that when she was really addicted she couldn't sleep if she hadn't had at least a little... and... well... I did make the point that her body was exhausted. I'm back and forth on whether to change it, but in the end I just decided it wasn't a comment I really wanted to keep. Especially since that was the *whole* comment.

 

[psychocatblah]

I lost track of his other hands in the sex scene (Osiric's other hands). How many hands does he have?

I was to have been back from Burlington the 18th, and now I'm not even going, so I can be available. To volunteer for what?

cantdog

He has two, but they move around a bit. I guess I could specify when he's using his right hand vs his left hand... or maybe he should do less with his hands?

 

[psychocatblah]

Was it really necessary to make him that old? A creepy old man can be 60. 80 makes it less believable as a story.


I'm just not believing any of this. Its hard to create a story about a powerful cult that gets away with murders in the modern day (unless you count the Taliban as a cult, but that is another story...) If it was set in the past I might be able to buy it.


Empire to build! Further losing its crediability


Symbol of his former glory? Something like his magnificent mansion now falling apart would be a symbol of his former glory. If anything she would be a symbol of former purity, if he had fathered her years ago before he had become involved in the cult and had a good heart.


Maybe she isnt as innocent as I first thought if she started a life of crime. Nothing is said why she ended up stealing. I'm guessing the death of her mother lead her to drugs which lead to stealing. Or maybe she wanted to be in jail since she thought she would be safe from him there. I can only guess because you didn't fill me in.

Hm. See, you're asking about aspects of the story that I'm just not sure are that interesting. Why was she stealing? Because her mother was dead from a nasty battle with cancer and there are medical bills associated with that. I could add that as part of the sentence, I guess I just figured cancer = expensive wasn't the biggest leap.

I see you're having credibility problems with the story starting with the names. I'd thought about changing them, but to me the names do take it a little bit out of reality. I guess what I'm saying is that I'm not trying to sell this as a drama that Might Happen Next Door. So next door names, to me, wouldn't sell the tale quite as well. Thomas, however, is very grounded in a paperwork takeover of the order. Nothing magical about him, he wants the money. I suppose I *could* say they fashioned themselves new names, but again, I just don't think that's terribly compelling reading.

Osiric never had a good heart. That's part of the reason the story happens. And as for 80... well... his problems getting it up and for other character development reasons, I chose this age. I'm sorry that breaks your suspension of disbelief, but again, this isn't exactly a story about your neighbors. Sometimes there is horror in everyday things and sometimes there's the fantastical horror. *shrugs*

 

[cantdog]

Originally posted by psychocatblah I see you're having credibility problems with the story starting with the names. I'd thought about changing them, but to me the names do take it a little bit out of reality. I guess what I'm saying is that I'm not trying to sell this as a drama that Might Happen Next Door. So next door names, to me, wouldn't sell the tale quite as well. Thomas, however, is very grounded in a paperwork takeover of the order. Nothing magical about him, he wants the money. I suppose I *could* say they fashioned themselves new names, but again, I just don't think that's terribly compelling reading.

Osiric never had a good heart. That's part of the reason the story happens. And as for 80... well... his problems getting it up and for other character development reasons, I chose this age. I'm sorry that breaks your suspension of disbelief, but again, this isn't exactly a story about your neighbors. Sometimes there is horror in everyday things and sometimes there's the fantastical horror. *shrugs* [/B]

Quite so, psychocatblah. Stravinsky became a dad again at 80, it ain't that weird. He looks a lot worse than most 80-year-olds in this scene in Chapter 1, but again, not beyond the realm of the credible if he's been incarcerated a while. These are silly objections, to me. Our sexton at 70 chats up the babes. It's written pretty darn well, that scene; most of the way through, you see it and sometimes you feel it.

The names. There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio. People do that stuff. They even change them legally to things which strain credibility even without a cultful of followers to impress.

 

[Black Tulip]

LOL

I think we have a clear case of reader interpretation here.

I figured Osiric renamed himself for the sake of his cult and gave his sons fitting names.

As for the age thing. I thought 80 was making it a touch more on the horror side.

A creepy old man can be 60.

Can we rephrase that to: A creepy man can be 60.
Given my own age, 60 is more mature or ripe than old, thank you very much.

 

[psychocatblah]

What is in a name?

LOL

I think we have a clear case of reader interpretation here.

I figured Osiric renamed himself for the sake of his cult and gave his sons fitting names.

As for the age thing. I thought 80 was making it a touch more on the horror side.



Can we rephrase that to: A creepy man can be 60.
Given my own age, 60 is more mature or ripe than old, thank you very much.

I will confess that there are a few men that are close to or slightly over 60 that I find very attractive, so I also didn't think that going with that age would express a sort of universal gasp of horror that an 80 year old man would. But there's also a few timing issues.

It's fine to assume Osiric changed his name. He probably did change it from Richard. Rick.. Osiric. I didn't really think Barnabas was that culty a name. Just maybe a little old, although I think most people with the name go by Barney. Or Thomas, Tom. Of course as the plot goes on you find that Nemesio had a different mother which is why his name is so different. There's another side story there that I left out as being kind of distracting although I could put it back in. Nemesio ==> nemesis. His mother wasn't particularly happy with how Osiric treated her and had hoped that he would unseat his father. But as fate would have it, Thomas took that role. But ah well, what is in a name?

 

[Lying Eyes]

Originally posted by psychocatblah Hm. See, you're asking about aspects of the story that I'm just not sure are that interesting. Why was she stealing?
Because her mother was dead from a nasty battle with cancer and there are medical bills associated with that. I could add that as part of the sentence, I guess I just figured cancer = expensive wasn't the biggest leap.

First of all I had no idea what kind of relationship she had with her mother. Whether her mother was caring or not. I had no idea if she stole for a worthy reason such as helping her mother or because of selfish reasons, this is a signifacant piece of info in my opinion since a reader can figure if she really has a good heart or not. The brief point that she went to prison for stealing is just to vague and puts her on a negative light from the start. I don't understand why you would say that it is "aspects not intresting", from some readers that would be true but those are people looking for a "stroke" piece, if it is your intention to create beyond pure "stroke" material then anything that helps build a character and plot is good. The fact that you rushed to a sex scene seems to suggest it is a "stroke" piece. In my opinion alot of plot should of been written before Osiric even entered the room. She should of been contemplating her situation and the hopelessness of it. Maybe gazing at the pictures of smiling faces or angels and thinking of the few happy moments she once had, anything that would help the reader get some background on who she once was. Then possiably her knowing that he would arrive soon and her being filled with repulsion but the drug addiction also makes her want to see him again in order to get her fix.

On I side note I live in Canada so the issue of medical bills is less of a concern here, so I didn't even think that she stole because she couldn't cope with all the medical bills.

I see you're having credibility problems with the story starting with the names. I'd thought about changing them, but to me the names do take it a little bit out of reality. I guess what I'm saying is that I'm not trying to sell this as a drama that Might Happen Next Door. So next door names, to me, wouldn't sell the tale quite as well. Thomas, however, is very grounded in a paperwork takeover of the order. Nothing magical about him, he wants the money. I suppose I *could* say they fashioned themselves new names, but again, I just don't think that's terribly compelling reading.

The fact that "Osiric" is the first word in the story makes the name stand out even more then normal. If you had delt with the daughter and her emotions before he is even mentioned it would of been less of an issue for me.

Osiric never had a good heart. That's part of the reason the story happens. And as for 80... well... his problems getting it up and for other character development reasons, I chose this age. I'm sorry that breaks your suspension of disbelief, but again, this isn't exactly a story about your neighbors. Sometimes there is horror in everyday things and sometimes there's the fantastical horror. *shrugs*

So he was always evil, that is something significant that wasn't mentioned. Could of really filled him with some more background details. The mutilations (brutal experiments?) and murders (sacrifices?) are mentioned but little detail which is odd for a horror story. No need to rush to sex when their is so much that could of been done in the first chapter to let the reader know what the cult is how it became strong. Since little detail was written I couldnt buy it as a believable storyline.

The age is of less an issue then the age difference between father and daughter.

The most horrorfying thing in the story in the incesteous act because a father taking advantage of his drug addicted daughter is a believable act. He is writen in this story as a predator which he is. This contrasts with the usual literotica incest stories that basicly treats it as two people having consensual sex, the fact that they are related seems almost redundant since the act is rarely treated like what might happen in the real world. This is why it kind of fits in the horror genre. It would be intresting to see the reaction from readers to this story if it was placed in the incest genre since the act is treated closer to what it really is.

These are my thoughts and opinions. But what do I know, I'm not at the level of most writers here and I don't know exactly what people are looking for in the erotic horror genre. So my thoughts probably can be ignored.

 

[psychocatblah]

No need to rush to sex when their is so much that could of been done in the first chapter to let the reader know what the cult is how it became strong. Since little detail was written I couldnt buy it as a believable storyline.

I would answer your questions on this, but you really do answer your own question.

The most horrorfying thing in the story in the incesteous act because a father taking advantage of his drug addicted daughter is a believable act. He is writen in this story as a predator which he is.

The very reason that I started off *bang* with this act is that it makes a big, very real impression of who these people are showing through action rather than my sitting here writing out everything about the characters, definiting them utterly through exposition. I'd like to have a blend of it. And I feel like that the hint of Charlotte's good heart was better made in that she had dreams of being a doctor in order to help people.

I have to be honest with you, because you did preface all of this that you didn't care for horror or incest, that you're trying to plead out that it isn't necessary doesn't quite make the same impact than if you were indifferent to it.

It's important to me and to the story that Osiric comes out on top as the most vile creature of the lot of them and the act itself accomplishes that. He *is* a predator, he *is* a sick individual and that this was the man that raised these other 3 boys that are also around her, influencing them in different levels to be like him and the results of that. And if you did continue on, you'll see the importance of who is related to whom bear out and why it does, in the end, become essential that Osiric is blood related to her. *shrugs*

As a side note, I did submit it to go into Incest/Taboo, but Laurel moved it to Erotic Horror because she understood what people were looking for in the sections more than I did. And no, I don't get why shiny happy people boinking their relations who don't seem to experience any angst or sense of wrongness from it makes for a good story or a particularly interesting bit of kink. But what people like or don't like aren't really under my control. *shrugs*

And with Charlotte, she could've found her family in any number of ways. I liked the idea of jail because it did show that she would be willing to go to extremes to do what she felt she needed to, whether what she was doing was for a noble cause or not. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on some of this. I understand you're uncomfortable with the material, and that's fine. You PM'ed me and said you didn't think you could review it and that's totally cool. I understand it's pretty extreme. Doesn't have to be everyone's cup of tea content-wise.

 

[MLyons]

Hello Psychocatblah,

I'm very sorry I'm so late. I've been deeply engrossed in my own writing project these last few weeks (spurred by discussion in this very forum) and have not had a whole lot of ability to focus on much else. However, I did read Chapter 1 of The Ends when Pure posted your thread. Then I went on to read the entire rest of the story (all 25 chapters) because I thought you might like some critique from the perspective of one who actually read the whole thing.

I have many disclaimers to offer. One is that I very much have my own biases and preferences when it comes to what I expect and want to get out of a Literotica story. That said, your story, taken as a whole, certainly stretched my limits in that regard. Another is that I've never read an erotic horror story before, and so am not overly familiar with the genre--which may be a detriment to my critique. Finally, incest is a bit of a squick MOST of the time for me, although for some reason I wasn't bothered too much by it in your story.

Given those caveats, especially the first one, I feel a bit silly giving you critique from my perspective given that what I really want to get out of a Lit story was probably not what you were going after when you wrote it.

I'm not even sure where to start. So I think I'll start with your "statement of concern" as Pure called it.

For me, your attempts at attraction through repulsion were outright fascinating. Hell--"fearless", I would even venture to say, and I found some of what you wrote absolutely rivetting in that regard. Specific examples that really linger in my mind include Nemesio cannibalising his own genitals, and a tampon being stuffed in the hole that remained. Another example was Charlotte being forced to have sex with the client's son in the stall, and then service the client himself in the limo. Charlotte's reliving of these indignities through Thomas was another one. And perhaps the most visceral and disturbing of them all to me was Nemesio's treatment of Charlotte... locking her in the box... chaining her to the wall, and the needles, mouth-sewing and other trappings while he fucked her. MY GOD.

I mean really.... OH MY FUCKING GOD. Not in terms of ... pure arousal. And not in terms of pure disgust, but more a strange and frighteningly disturbing combination of the two that you'd managed to elicit in me that really started to define for me what the genre of "Erotic Horror' could be.

What that says about me... I really don't know.

There were times in the early stages of the story that I found myself unable to help touching myself, and then as if turning on a dime, I was limp as a noodle because of the disturbing, even BRUTAL, images you'd just thrust into my mind. It was a weird place to be to say the least. So perhaps in terms of your goal of erotic horror in a LITERAL sense, mission accomplished, at least in the earlier chapters.

Now, having said that, as the story moved past... Oh I don't know... Chapter 8 or so, I really started to find it a bit of a labor to read. I would definitely not have finished the story if I was just reading it for my own pleasure. But it's also important to know that I read stories here because I want to be aroused sexually, not because I'm looking for a good horror story. So please don't take my comments in that regard the wrong way. After those first 8 or 9 chapters, the erotic moments, for the most part, drifted away completely for me, and I was left with a developing story that didn't peak my interest enough not to feel like I was forcing my self to read it in case something juicy cropped up again later.

Part of the reason for that, I think, was that after a while (and this wasn't the case in the beginning) I was unable to ultimately empathize or even find anything interesting about any of the characters. Charlotte surely came the closest to getting my empathy, but by the time it was all over, I didn't much care about her either. I find it difficult to explain why. I think perhaps that first I empthized with her as a victim, and I enjoyed her being victimized (I know that probably makes me a bastard... but you know, I have just as much of a dark side as the next guy--maybe even more so), but THEN I was able to empathize with her in a sense of revenge, especially with some of the INSANE things she did to the recently demised Nemesio, and I was liking that alot. Finally though, she was just another pawn, and I didn't care one wit about her or anyone else once it was clear that the stone she carried had all the control.

I think your writing has some very nice qualities, and there are passages that are downright excellent. At the same time though, the whole story seemed over-written at times. It seemed to linger on a lot of feelings and character ponderings when all I wanted it to do was get on with the action. But then that could also have been a function of me not really caring about the characters again.

Now to concentrate ONLY on the first chapter for a second, since that's what this whole thread is about, I thought it was quite interesting. I haven't read what anyone else has said about it yet, so forgive me if I give any repeat criticism. Some of the writing was very nice, especially that first paragraph which is certainly an attention getter. I thought that in the context of the story as a whole though, the first chapter was a bit.... I don't know... misleading. It seemed the story ultimtely went off in much different directions than you might have originally intended and the first chapter reflects that. I thought the horror of the incestuous 80 year old father and waifish, thin drug-addicted daughter was fascintnating and disturbing--probably just what you were going for, but even in this chapter, I found it hard to care about any of the characters other than Charlotte... and I only cared about Charlotte as a victim--not as a heroine, as it were. Later on that changed, but as I said, then my interest in her was doused completely.

I'm not sure what else useful I can say, except to remind you once again that what I'm looking for might very well NOT be what you were trying to write, and please accept my comments knowing that I may not be your audience. Regardless though, you've opened my eyes to erotic horror, or at least your version of it, and I found it fascinating, and at times downright irresistable. It was FIERCLY inventive, and downright fearless in places, and I respect that more than I can say. It was definitely a story that is off the beaten path of the Lit. norm, for that I say, congratulations and thank you for broadening my horizons.

I'd be interested to see what other crazy ideas you have up your sleeve, even if I end up stuck with a hard on while feeling sick to my stomach at the same time.

I hope this was useful to you.

 

[psychocatblah]

I'd be interested to see what other crazy ideas you have up your sleeve, even if I end up stuck with a hard on while feeling sick to my stomach at the same time.

I hope this was useful to you.

Wow, thanks! I did worry a bit about the later chapters not having enough perversity in them because I did want to tell the story. But it's a valid point and honestly, one I've been pondering. I really think I'm going to go back and allow Barnabas to wreak some angry vengeance on his not!father and perhaps rewrite how he actually did die. He really did get off too easily, didn't he? I guess in the pretense of them being changed I went a little too far into their altruism and sucked out what I did like about the unfolding of the story built around the sexy/repellant sex scenes.

The first chapter does throw in a couple of red herrings and I'm a little curious as to whether they worked or not. Like I do try to build Nemesio in that chapter as almost a hero... someone who loves Charlotte. Which he does. Just... too much. There's a lot of love gone wrong there and sex for different purposes.

I am thrilled, yes thrilled, that it did cause and erection with loathing. And you're not a bastard for enjoying Charlotte as a victim. Well, unless I'm a bastard too, because I enjoyed the hell out of tormenting her. And then torturing back.

I'm half working on another story that is of this ilk, but as you've pointed out, I do get bogged down in explaining the psychology of the characters and I know that my compulsion is to want to lay everything out, particularly when the situations are so unusual. But that's been good to hear it here because that way I know that what I suspect is truly how its coming out. So thanks!

 

[MLyons]

Having read the rest of the posts here, I do have a couple things to add, for whatever that's worth.

With all due respect to Lying Eyes, I don't agree with most of his issues of believability. I've read some FREAKIN' AMAZING stories on Lit. that couldn't possibly happen in the real world. The issue of the names is not an issue in my mind, no matter what time the story is set in because clearly the whole world that Psychocat creates is a little off-kilter to begin with. The trick to "believability" in my mind is to put the characters in a situation (believable or not) and make their REACTIONS to it relate-able so that we can associate our expeiences with them on a human level, even when we can't directly relate to their environment. Although I'm not sure Psychocat was entirely successful at this, I think she did a fairly good job. I just got mired in all the introspection, especially in the later chapters.

I certainly don't have a problem with anyone whose tastes tend to fall toward stories with a high believability premise, but I'm not sure it's too useful to criticize Psychocat's story on that basis.

I also very much disagree with the premise that we need huge amounts of exposition and formulaic character development before we get to any sex. My opinion is that character development can happen in the PROCESS of sex just as easily as it can other ways. Granted, it has to be written pretty darn well in order to do it, but that's going to make for a much more interesting story in my mind than paragraphs of exposition before we get to any action. There are very few rules in fiction. As soon as we come up with one, somebody will come along and show us a story that breaks it successfully.

The idea of seperating the "stroke" readers from those who enjoy a little more story, or worse making evaluative distinctions between the two, is a mistake in my opinion. The best stories, for me, are those that can incorporate both sex and story seamlessly--so that I'm not even thinking about HOW I'm getting the information I need to enjoy the story, I'm just enjoying the story. Meanwhile, I'm enjoying a titilating and high tension sexual atmosphere. But obviously, those are MY tastes.

But again, one has to be very careful when evaluating stories (especially those that do not fit within the evaluator's tastes) not to evaluate them in opposition to what the author intended to create, but more along the lines of whether the author was successful in their attempt to create what they intended.

I certainly don't mean to impugne LE's criticism, which certainly has valuable points, and Psychocat will take from it what she needs. I just thought I'd speak up as someone who doesn't necessarily agree with some of the points he made. Only Psycho can decide what's right or wrong for her story.

I am thrilled, yes thrilled, that it did cause and erection with loathing. And you're not a bastard for enjoying Charlotte as a victim. Well, unless I'm a bastard too, because I enjoyed the hell out of tormenting her. And then torturing back.

Alrighty then. Bring it on sister! I'm anxious to see what you have up your sleeve in the future.

 

[psychocatblah]

I also very much disagree with the premise that we need huge amounts of exposition and formulaic character development before we get to any sex. My opinion is that character development can happen in the PROCESS of sex just as easily as it can other ways. Granted, it has to be written pretty darn well in order to do it, but that's going to make for a much more interesting story in my mind than paragraphs of exposition before we get to any action. There are very few rules in fiction. As soon as we come up with one, somebody will come along and show us a story that breaks it successfully.

I agree, actually. Having read quite a few stories on lit, sometimes I will admit to skimming over the exposition after a bit and just heading for about where I think the sex is going to happen. And it was a concern of mine that if I went too in depth with some of the exposition that's what would end up happening.

Which isn't really why I started with the sex, just something I've been pondering since reading some of the comments about the story and trying to weigh out a good balance between sex/action and storytelling. I think a lot of authors (myself very much included) get rather self-indulgent about character development and a lot of exposition just becomes author masturbation or character notes that aren't entirely important.

It's kind of a hamfisted, "know my character!" sort of thing and not really what I wanted to do.

I also wanted the characters to be rather flawed and strange and for none of them to be entirely sympathetic, but in some ways relatable if even they were rather extreme examples. Like Charlotte was a victim and was just always going to be a victim because her complicity would always lead to some manner of self destruction. Osiric who understood the differences between good and evil but would always choose evil so long as it served his self interest. Pride, wrath, gluttony, oh, I think nearly all of the deadly sins make an appearence.

But yes, believability in the realm of "This could be happening somewhere!" wasn't really what I was going for. I do have stories like that Just not this one.

But thanks all, I think I'm getting some pretty clear ideas on what I want to change and what is working. I'm also getting a pretty clear idea that no matter how well I write or how clearly I express some stories, they're just not going to appeal to some people and because of that, I should just chill about my scores. I can write for ratings or for myself and that while those two things aren't always mutually exclusive, if they don't happen to collide I shouldn't sweat it.

 

[Lying Eyes]

I just thought I'd speak up as someone who doesn't necessarily agree with some of the points he made. Only Psycho can decide what's right or wrong for her story.

Of course!!! I certainly don't want a writer to change their creations if they don't want to. No Sir!!! Its from their own head. Only they can decide what direction they wish to take their own work. No one else should be allowed to change it.

Its just some things that crossed my mind, things I may have done differently but not necessarily a right or wrong way of going about the story. Considering my lack of experience in writing if anything it is the wrong way. As I said before anything I said can be ignored and probably should.

Anyway from reading fully another of Psycho's stories she seems talented and know's what she is doing. I would say the writers that usually ask to have their work reviewed on the Story Discussion Circle Board are already great at writing as is and don't really need their work picked apart.

But it doesn't matter what I think. Every story has its audience. Even stories I have read which seemed very simple to me I know suits the tastes of other readers. Other's stories I have read with a low average vote score I could appreciate it while others didn't care for it at all.