Hater Of The Week

[Alana_]

I agree with much of this. I think DSS, Child Welfare, etc, are in a shit position.
Take kids away from their parents, there's outrage. Wait too long and the kid ends up dead, there's outrage.

Oh, here you go, here's the foster system.
Did you enjoy that? Oh, now you are 18? See ya later!

I deal with the Irish system. Have been for 13 years..We're technically short term foster parents. But we were asked to take a placement 7 years ago for 3 years, and he's still with us.* my baby*.

There's no way he's going 'home'..He's now 'long term' with us despite us never wanting to do long term, but we fell in love with him as the placement just drifted from one month to the next to 7 years..The system here is just too stupidly focused on 'family', even if the family is totally fucked up, as is my little chaps birth family.

She's nuts, he's a bastard, and still access is encouraged. The child is now a tormented little chap who doesn't know where he belongs, no matter how my husband and I reassure him he's adored.
It's just been one fucked up week and my patience is jaded.

Sorry, it just felt good to cleanse my thoughts and vent a bit.

 

[Ausus_girl13]

Most of the people I like are sluts.

Asus-

My ears ringing to memories NOW rally chants outside the tiller clinic near where I live, (4,6,8,10 Why are all your leaders men?) where I was a designated male supporter, in charge of drowning out ridiculous fundies, permit me to play devil's advocate:
it is, I feel putting too fine a point on it to ignore womens/minorities own role in accepting victimization. It takes two. I'm not saying that in their position I would behave differently, or be forced into less neurotic contortions to survive, simply pointing out that no one's behavior occurs without will. It is far easier to conform to societies expectations, to step, to fetch to diet and stab yourself over and over with a glittering little knife of self loathing and endless reproach (never skinny enough, never smart enough, never sexy enough) than to try to tread some opposing path, but not impossible. Society will still get you to stumble and fall back into your oppressed status, but one must keep climbing. If no one tries, nothing changes. Be brave. Be bold. Stand up and be counted. (as I feel you likely have) There are some parts of me I would devote myself to destruction before I would change. Each of them is/was a choice at some point. Just a quick largely hateless aside. You know, fer discussion's sake.

I hear you. I really and truly do.

The truth of the matter is. I can't control anyone else. Not that I haven't tried, but still.

Vail says it well...

Certainly.
Women should, basically, shrug off the message they've been having screamed at them since the day they were born.
Its just like that. Ausus and I are more aware than most and we still have to deal with this shit.
And, even if we suddenly became the most empowered, self-confident women in the world, we'd still make less, we'd still be targets for violence, we'd still be treated like breeding stock because, ultimately, every little girl is getting taught that empowered women are women in high heels with great husbands.
Some can shrug that off, some can't.

Given that you are a male, and, I'm guessing, white, you know two things about actual oppression
jack
and
shit.

I won't play oppression olympics here. And yeah the construction of masculinity is a bitch.

I am of the mindset that men can be, and should be a big part of the solution. But that's gonna take a lot of work.
A lot.

So sure, I step up and do my part. Walk the walk and all. And that leads to things like this. Challenge me, you will go down, nothing gets me worked up more than an ignorant person who tries to tell me that everything is peachy keen cause I can do (some) things that men can.

Perhaps here, my biggest problem is ignorance.
I fucking hate stupid people.

 

[Vail_Indigo]

I deal with the Irish system. Have been for 13 years..We're technically short term foster parents. But we were asked to take a placement 7 years ago for 3 years, and he's still with us.* my baby*.

There's no way he's going 'home'..He's now 'long term' with us despite us never wanting to do long term, but we fell in love with him as the placement just drifted from one month to the next to 7 years..The system here is just too stupidly focused on 'family', even if the family is totally fucked up, as is my little chaps birth family.

She's nuts, he's a bastard, and still access is encouraged. The child is now a tormented little chap who doesn't know where he belongs, no matter how my husband and I reassure him he's adored.
It's just been one fucked up week and my patience is jaded.

Sorry, it just felt good to cleanse my thoughts and vent a bit.

we have similar issues here, of course. No need to apologize, it has to be talked about

 

[Light Ice]

Certainly.
Women should, basically, shrug off the message they've been having screamed at them since the day they were born.
Its just like that. Ausus and I are more aware than most and we still have to deal with this shit.
And, even if we suddenly became the most empowered, self-confident women in the world, we'd still make less, we'd still be targets for violence, we'd still be treated like breeding stock because, ultimately, every little girl is getting taught that empowered women are women in high heels with great husbands.
Some can shrug that off, some can't.

Given that you are a male, and, I'm guessing, white, you know two things about actual oppression
jack
and
shit.

Everything here rings of truth save the last bit.

But while it certainly does no help for your cause it certainly doesn't take away from the fundamental obstacle women are consistently faced with.

Objectification, overt or otherwise, has become institutionalized enough that there is legitimacy in claiming young girls are conditioned to be hapless, helpless, and incapable. You and I are separated by quite a few particulars in this argument, Vail.

However, denying that women are not at a disadvantage or predated upon because they are women is both foolish and ignorant.

 

[Azeotrope]

Indeed, I of course could never possibly imagine what it's like to be oppressed. My european derivation does indeed, shelter me from much of the crap in todays word, but it puts me in a cage, perhaps a far more comfortable one than those in minority positions, perhaps far more permissive, but still there are things I musn't do, some of these things, I happen to enjoy. Wearing a skirt, comes to mind. I am hetero, (predominantly) and a masculine, sometimes abrasive male. Wearing a skirt gets me ostracization and censure. I am a strong believer in women's liberation, women's empowerment.

Why must you insist that only you, as a woman, can know oppression? Why must this be WHITE GUYS v EVERYONE else? Are you so certain that gulf between our positions is insurmountable here? I choose to be in a number of out groups, and while these are choices, not natural parts of me...it is a start.

Or can we not even agree there? Have you considered you might be putting your oppression on a pedestal?

Am I missing something?



Regards, and appreciation for the chat,

-Zeo.

 

[Vail_Indigo]

So, I wouldn't dream of thinking I know what its like to live in one of these war-torn countries where peoples lives hang in the balance every day, and villages are wiped out because some guys with guns felt like it.
I have no understand of that experience other than what I read.
The idea that I should comment as if I understand what it means to be them...thats insane.
My opinion on the topic should be ignored, were I to voice one.

I don't have a very good understanding of what it means to be poor, truly poor, because I have never had to go without. My opinions on this should also be taken as coming from ignorance.

 

[Vail_Indigo]

Indeed, I of course could never possibly imagine what it's like to be oppressed. My european derivation does indeed, shelter me from much of the crap in todays word, but it puts me in a cage, perhaps a far more comfortable one than those in minority positions, perhaps far more permissive, but still there are things I musn't do, some of these things, I happen to enjoy. Wearing a skirt, comes to mind. I am hetero, (predominantly) and a masculine, sometimes abrasive male. Wearing a skirt gets me ostracization and censure. I am a strong believer in women's liberation, women's empowerment.

Why must you insist that only you, as a woman, can know oppression? Why must this be WHITE GUYS v EVERYONE else? Are you so certain that gulf between our positions is insurmountable here? I choose to be in a number of out groups, and while these are choices, not natural parts of me...it is a start.

Or can we not even agree there? Have you considered you might be putting your oppression on a pedestal?

Am I missing something?



Regards, and appreciation for the chat,

-Zeo.

So, this reminds me of some flack that came up recently because some guy was suing a bar for having ladies night where women get 1 dollar drinks or some such. "Equal rights! Discrimination! Sexism!" he screamed.
To which I replied "Fuck you"

 

[Niriate]

Retarded internet kiddies...

They come in all shapes and sizes. Squeaky soundboard kiddies, manchildren, (mostly) American white kids that just learnt a new swearword on TV...
Makes me sick to my stoumach.

Should've made the entire internet M-rated..


Sorry.. I'm a really, REALLY bad hater...

 

[Ausus_girl13]

Okay- This is just part of a whole article written by Peggy Macintosh, called Unpacking the Invisible Backpack. It's all about her unpacking, or unraveling her privilege as a white person.

I think, then, rather than to feel guilty about it, because I've done the liberal guilt thing, but rather to have conversations around it. And begin to unravel it in your own lives.

Daily effects of white privilege
I decided to try to work on myself at least by identifying some of the daily effects of white privilege in
my life. I have chosen those conditions that I think in my case attach somewhat more to skin-color
privilege than to class, religion, ethnic status, or geographic location, though of course all these other
factors are intricately intertwined. As far as I can tell, my African American coworkers, friends, and
acquaintances with whom I come into daily or frequent contact in this particular time, place and time of
work cannot count on most of these conditions.
1. I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.
2. I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to
mistrust my kind or me.
3. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can
afford and in which I would want to live.
4. I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.
5. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.
6. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely
represented.
7. When I am told about our national heritage or about "civilization," I am shown that people of my
color made it what it is.
8. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their
race.
9. If I want to, I can be pretty sure of finding a publisher for this piece on white privilege.
10. I can be pretty sure of having my voice heard in a group in which I am the only member of my race.
11. I can be casual about whether or not to listen to another person's voice in a group in which s/he is the
only member of his/her race.
12. I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket
and find the staple foods which fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser's shop and find
someone who can cut my hair.
13. Whether I use checks, credit cards or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the
appearance of financial reliability.
14. I can arrange to protect my children most of the time from people who might not like them.
15. I do not have to educate my children to be aware of systemic racism for their own daily physical
protection.
16. I can be pretty sure that my children's teachers and employers will tolerate them if they fit school and
workplace norms; my chief worries about them do not concern others' attitudes toward their race.
17. I can talk with my mouth full and not have people put this down to my color.
18. I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute
these choices to the bad morals, the poverty or the illiteracy of my race.
19. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial.
20. I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race.
21. I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group.
22. I can remain oblivious of the language and customs of persons of color who constitute the world's
majority without feeling in my culture any penalty for such oblivion.
23. I can criticize our government and talk about how much I fear its policies and behavior without
being seen as a cultural outsider.
24. I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk to the "person in charge", I will be facing a person of my race.
25. If a traffic cop pulls me over or if the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven't been singled
out because of my race.
26. I can easily buy posters, post-cards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys and children's
magazines featuring people of my race.
27. I can go home from most meetings of organizations I belong to feeling somewhat tied in, rather than
isolated, out-of-place, outnumbered, unheard, held at a distance or feared.
28. I can be pretty sure that an argument with a colleague of another race is more likely to jeopardize
her/his chances for advancement than to jeopardize mine.
29. I can be pretty sure that if I argue for the promotion of a person of another race, or a program
centering on race, this is not likely to cost me heavily within my present setting, even if my colleagues
disagree with me.
30. If I declare there is a racial issue at hand, or there isn't a racial issue at hand, my race will lend me
more credibility for either position than a person of color will have.
31. I can choose to ignore developments in minority writing and minority activist programs, or disparage
them, or learn from them, but in any case, I can find ways to be more or less protected from negative
consequences of any of these choices.
32. My culture gives me little fear about ignoring the perspectives and powers of people of other races.
33. I am not made acutely aware that my shape, bearing or body odor will be taken as a reflection on my
race.
34. I can worry about racism without being seen as self-interested or self-seeking.
35. I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having my co-workers on the job
suspect that I got it because of my race.
36. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether
it had racial overtones.
37. I can be pretty sure of finding people who would be willing to talk with me and advise me about my
next steps, professionally.
38. I can think over many options, social, political, imaginative or professional, without asking whether
a person of my race would be accepted or allowed to do what I want to do.
39. I can be late to a meeting without having the lateness reflect on my race.
40. I can choose public accommodation without fearing that people of my race cannot get in or will be
mistreated in the places I have chosen.
41. I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my race will not work against me.
42. I can arrange my activities so that I will never have to experience feelings of rejection owing to my
race.
43. If I have low credibility as a leader I can be sure that my race is not the problem.
44. I can easily find academic courses and institutions which give attention only to people of my race.
45. I can expect figurative language and imagery in all of the arts to testify to experiences of my race.
46. I can chose blemish cover or bandages in "flesh" color and have them more or less match my skin.
47. I can travel alone or with my spouse without expecting embarrassment or hostility in those who deal
with us.
48. I have no difficulty finding neighborhoods where people approve of our household.
49. My children are given texts and classes which implicitly support our kind of family unit and do not
turn them against my choice of domestic partnership.
50. I will feel welcomed and "normal" in the usual walks of public life, institutional and social.

Why do I suddenly feel like I am in Women's studies101?

 

[Light Ice]

So, I wouldn't dream of thinking I know what its like to live in one of these war-torn countries where peoples lives hang in the balance every day, and villages are wiped out because some guys with guns felt like it.
I have no understand of that experience other than what I read.
The idea that I should comment as if I understand what it means to be them...thats insane.
My opinion on the topic should be ignored, were I to voice one.

I don't have a very good understanding of what it means to be poor, truly poor, because I have never had to go without. My opinions on this should also be taken as coming from ignorance.

I can see that line of argument. I just don't agree with it. That comes from an emotional place. It's an emotional expression more than a rational truth.

 

[Azeotrope]

Asus-

I appreciate the response. I don't like to think of myself as ignorant, but perhaps I am just another running dog of the operating paradigm, driving women down. I think that personal responsibility, that radical empowerment must begin from within the oppressed category, whereever and whatever.

But again, due to my penis, and the fact that it's genes are largely white european, I will agree that I may not have a real concept of how deep the rabbit hole goes, but I can see it. Sometimes I even feel some of it's effects. That's all I want is acknowledgement that while I may be a neophyte, I can at least work at my own awareness. Maybe even be of some help.

Meh. Vail, Asus> Delightful chatting with you, but must dash. I have a docs appointment. Been a slice.

Drazor> Stop it. Right fucking now. That's disgusting.

Alana> Your pathos speaks to me

HATEHATEHATE>

I fucking hate the fact that I work in health care, at a job where I don't get health insurance except for (LOL) aflac. This shit is fucking retarded, and really I would think that having insurance for your HEALTHCARE workers would be pretty GODDAMNED self evident, but whatever, I'll just keep going to the free clinic and hanging out with my pal Dr. Ravi. He kicks ass.

 

[Light Ice]

I don't want to quote Ausus, but I want to really sit down and read that. Give me a couple hours to comment.

 

[Vail_Indigo]

that list makes me want to cry.
Thank you. I sometimes forget, that even though I'm gay and a woman, I'm white and that brings its own privilege.

 

[Vail_Indigo]

I can see that line of argument. I just don't agree with it. That comes from an emotional place. It's an emotional expression more than a rational truth.

you may feel free to think that. Sadly, it changes nothing.

 

[Vail_Indigo]

Oh, and not for nothing, if you want my disdain, dismiss me for being an emotional woman again.

 

[Light Ice]

Oh, and not for nothing, if you want my disdain, dismiss me for being an emotional woman again.

That's not what I said. I said your argument is an emotional one. That is, one based on feeling.

I could easily make the same claim of you.

The fact that you are a woman and not a white mail makes you incapable of understanding anything about our trials and positions. Your opinion on our methods and society is therefore equal to jack and shit.

But that doesn't work, does it?

I'm not dismissing your points. I'm arguing that the way in which you present them weakens your cause.

 

[Vail_Indigo]

Do I agree that the patriarchy is bad for everyone?
Yes, yes I do.
I think its horrible that any of us have to be forced into roles that maybe don't fit who we are as people.
But, in the same way I don't spend very much time thinking about the problems faced by the rich and famous, I'm not going to spend as much time thinking about the problems faced by the people who benefit most from the system. I want your freedom from this as well, but somehow I'm sure you'll weather the storm until we can break down this structure.

 

[Light Ice]

Do I agree that the patriarchy is bad for everyone?
Yes, yes I do.
I think its horrible that any of us have to be forced into roles that maybe don't fit who we are as people.
But, in the same way I don't spend very much time thinking about the problems faced by the rich and famous, I'm not going to spend as much time thinking about the problems faced by the people who benefit most from the system. I want your freedom from this as well, but somehow I'm sure you'll weather the storm until we can break down this structure.

We agree on the problem.

We agree society needs to embrace a solution.

We disagree on the method.

But that's the only thing that really separates us. It doesn't make us enemies. I think that's the only point I try to make with you on the subject.

 

[Vail_Indigo]

What you are saying is that you know better, even though you haven't experienced anything like real oppression.
The arrogance there is astounding.
But unsurprising.

 

[Light Ice]

What you are saying is that you know better, even though you haven't experienced anything like real oppression.
The arrogance there is astounding.
But unsurprising.

And here's the caveat. You make an argument based on a logical fallacy:

Only a woman can understand or sympathize properly with a woman's plight.

But you will not make the same statement on behalf of men because it destroys your position. With one hand you're asking for absolute equality. The other? You're saying you're too comfortable to understand what I'm asking for.

That kills your position because it absolutely sets you on your own. It puts you on an island.

It's illogical.

 

[Mephistophelily]

No matter who you are or what you do, someone is always going to hate you.
Some people, more than others.

I realize I have people who hate me. That think I probably say stupid things, that I do stupid stuff. That I complain sometimes, or that I have dumb ideas. That I act too childish, that I come off as a bitch or a snob or just flat off a fool.

And you know what? I don't give a shit.

No matter what you do, no matter how nice you think you can be, someone WILL hate you.

Some people also have no filter when it comes to cynicism, being totally oblivious to how people are reacting around them. Those are people I'm somewhat jealous of, because I am completely the opposite. If someone says something in spiteful ways without pointing it in a direction, I assume its toward me.... and get defensive in my head.

Ignorance can be bliss, I suppose.
But sometimes being too ignorant just fuels the fire.

 

[Vail_Indigo]

No, I never said I understood what its like to be a man. I said I understand that you do go through your own trials.
I don't have advice for you on how to resolve these issues that you face.

What I AM saying is that the the patriarchy is set up to favor you and to treat women like property.
What I AM saying is that, while the patriarchy is bad for everyone (and I honestly believe this), its far far far worse for us.

None of which is saying I understand what its like to be a man, nor is it saying I know whats best for men or how they should solve their issues.

But, I know, I'm very emotional.
You can't blame me, its just my ladybrain.
I'm very sorry for having offended you and I'll go be quiet now.

 

[sallythescorpian]

I have read this debate with interest, and feel I want to chime in with my ten cents.

No evolved society should treat someone less favourably because of their sex, race, disabillity, religious beliefs, sexual orientation or family status. In Europe, this is enshrined in EU Law. Certainly, the law will not change the mindset of certain individuals, but it does force a change in behaviour.

But, I firmly believe, that while, no one should be treated in less favourable manner because of thier sex / race /sexual orientation etc etc, nor should someone be treated in a more favourable manner. Positive discrimination is ridiculous. Everyone should have equal opportunity, nothing less, nothing more. As a senior manager within my organisation, I cant think of anything I would hate more, than to be promoted because of my sex. That, in and of iteself, suggests that I would not get the position on my own merits.

I think that people get hung up on their rights and their entitlements, but paradoxically forget all about their responsibilities.

I also think that there is a danger, particularly in areas moving forward from rampant discrimination, that one develop's a chip on the shoulder - looking for acts of discrimination, where none might exist. I think its also important to look at the intent behind what people say. I find quite often older men will come into my organisation, and will ask to see "the man in charge" (usually pointing to one of the male, junior staff!) Mostly they do not intend offense, it is just representative of the era in which they grew up. I have dealings with many people with social / psychological problems etc, and, they often address me as "love" or "pet" which annoys me intensely, and it is something I'd draw to their attention, and correct, but not in a manner offensive to them. I know they mean no offense, its simply a habit.

All in all, a little tolerance goes a long way.

okay - I over ran my 10 cents - that's my 30 or 40 cent, but I'll shut up now!!

 

[FuckFantasy]

No, I never said I understood what its like to be a man. I said I understand that you do go through your own trials.
I don't have advice for you on how to resolve these issues that you face.

What I AM saying is that the the patriarchy is set up to favor you and to treat women like property.
What I AM saying is that, while the patriarchy is bad for everyone (and I honestly believe this), its far far far worse for us.

None of which is saying I understand what its like to be a man, nor is it saying I know whats best for men or how they should solve their issues.

But, I know, I'm very emotional.
You can't blame me, its just my ladybrain.
I'm very sorry for having offended you and I'll go be quiet now.

All I want to say is that I think it's counterproductive to beat your chest for equality then claim that men can never understand what women deal with.

I will never know what it's like to be a minority. Never. I have white privilege, even though I'm actually half Hispanic. I'm fair, so I'm classified as Caucasian. But if a person of color explains to me what their daily life is like, I can sympathize. I can learn from the racism inflicted upon them. I can change my perspective and my mindset. And I can try to become a better person in my community. Equality among the races can make gains if those being oppressed at least come from a place of trying to educate, rather than berate. And in turn, those in power need to make great strides to educate themselves on their own, and to become socially sensitive and aware.

The feminist movement needs to adopt this same attitude. Screaming and throwing men under the bus isn't going to change a thing. Saying that they will never understand only gives them excuses to behave in ways that oppress. You enable them to say, "You're right, I'll never get it, so I'm not at fault for my behavior." (In addition, such talk turns them off from from the entire theory. You catch more flies with honey, so the saying goes.)

A man will never know what it's like to live as a woman, but he can learn, to a small degree. He can be made to understand, as best as possible. Instead of beating him down for being born into the gender of power, change tactics.

And I understand that you're emotional. (I know you were being sarcastic to LI, but I'm saying that I can tell you ARE emotional. So am I!) Own it. There's nothing wrong with being that way. I became enraged earlier today. When something personal to you gets dragged through the mud, it's very hard not to have a visceral reaction. It's almost a good thing; anger means you care. Passion is what's needed to change anything in this world. But you have to find a way to channel that passion, and yes, that anger, into something positive.

And I know as I type all this, I need to take my own advice.

 

[monique_minx]

I can't be bothered catching up on the crap you were all talking about while I was unconscious but...

Let me see if I got this...

Furry crap
Feminism blah...
...blah, racism...
Something about foster care...
...manchildren, Niri? You're right, you are an awful hater
Something about male supremacy...

Right? Close?
I don't give a fuck anyway, just testing my ability to summarize.

My thoughts?

I don't care.

Who gives a crap? This is the world we live in, this is the hand you were dealt so now play the fucking game and stop crying about it.

Violence against women?
Minx says yes, please?!

But more seriously, I don't want to talk about violence against women. I actually want someone to say this so now, I will.
What about violence against men?

shock horror, a woman said that!

Breathe.

Yes, violence against men.
I've seen some crazy animalistic men bash my fucking head in quite literally.
But I saw more crazy fucked up women than you can dream of.

My mother.
She threw a boiling hot cup of coffee at my father, slammed a roller chair into his broken ankle, beat the ever loving shit out of my unflinching father who would just stand there and take it, never even lifting an arm in his own defense.

Did I ever see him hit her once?
No.
In spite of her incredible insanity.
No.

So that's what I wanna talk about.