historical roles vs female submission

[BiBunny]

It's like "is being queer biology or choice?"

I say it's completely irrelevant. Those who can't be any other way and were born it and use that as the reason it should be OK are missing the point.

If it's a choice, it's one one is entitled to make. If it's the way your are and you can't help it, you should be left alone to be it. But it might not be inborn for everyone and it might not be a choice for everyone and either way it shouldn't matter.

People are the experts on themselves.

I agree with this. Some are born this way; some choose to be this way under certain circumstances. Do whatever you need to be fulfilled.

As far as the OP, the man has a wife. Usually, she's the one to do the day-to-day things, like cooking. I cook when I'm there if they want me to, and I do the chores that neither of them like to do. She's not submissive by any stretch of the imagination, but if he wanted a slave just to cook his dinner and scrub his toilets, then he didn't need me in the first place.

 

[thesan]

As a militant feminist myself, I will stand up and proclaim that any woman's choice to be submissive is her choice. And that any way she and her Dom choose to enact her submission is their choice.

And I will kick the ass of anyone who says different.

i say different. i do not believe submissiveness is a choice, it is a personality trait. so do i bend over now or later for my butt kicking?

It maybe that being submissive is inborn and not a choice per se. However, acting on that submission is. Not every submissive, or dominant for that matter, is in a relationship that allows that power exchange to occur. In fact, I bet many unhappy marriages and life partnerships are with kinky people paired up with vanilla people. Unfortunately one cannot always help who one falls in love with nor does one have the ability to prevent one partner from being one way at the beginning of a relationship and then becoming another way over time.

Traditionally and I am assuming we are discussing European western cultures and its spinoffs, women were forced to be in the inferior role whether they were inately submissive, switchy or dominant. This is not good in my opinion. And women were forced into these inferior roles for ALL aspects of their lives. Again not good in my opinion.

Female submission as played out in modern power exchange relationships are VASTLY different and in my opinion (see all these my opinions) much better. As has been pointed out in multiple threads and in multiple places, there are those that are submissive sexually while being quite dominant at work or in other arenas. In fact, I would hazard a guess that there is WIDE range of where submissive behavior manifest, from the bedroom to the boardroom to the nursery and all areas in between to include 24/7 submissives.

I don't think any list from a bygone era is the measure of modern female submission. True submission is to one's SO/master/dominant and is list exclusive. It is about knowing and caring about that person. Knowing and caring about what THAT person expects/wants/demands. Not some generic bullshit list/ideal propagated by a misogynistic era. And no I don't think power relationship are misogynistic, and if you want the reasons why that is a separate question. Modern female submission is person intensive and specific. And it includes the female and her needs. And not like it was traditionally where society excluded women, their needs, thoughts, wants and tendencies.

Am I making sense here or have I got it all wrong.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Am I making sense here or have I got it all wrong.

You got it very, very, right.

 

[ownedsubgal]

It's like "is being queer biology or choice?"

I say it's completely irrelevant. Those who can't be any other way and were born it and use that as the reason it should be OK are missing the point.

If it's a choice, it's one one is entitled to make. If it's the way your are and you can't help it, you should be left alone to be it. But it might not be inborn for everyone and it might not be a choice for everyone and either way it shouldn't matter.

i agree with this in regard to everyday people living their everyday lives, but viewed on a much larger scale (i.e. all of humanity), i find it disturbing. my problem with the feminism ideal of "choice" is that i do not believe that life should necessarily be about doing what makes one's happiest, or what one "chooses" that particular day. i also believe that societies in general function more productively when it is understood and expected that certain people fill certain roles. i believe that families function better when everyone has a clearly defined role and purpose, and that romantic relationships are healthier and more positive when each partner has a clearly defined role.

imo, the idea of there being no structure to anything, no order, and every individual living by a philosophy of "hey, whatever i want," is really really frightening. also, call me delusional (many have), but i sincerely believe that males and females are different for reasons beyond reproduction. i like to think that we were created for a purpose, that there is some rhyme, reason and logic to all this, and that it's not all just meaningless chance, individual choice and chaos. because well, that would be really really super depressing.

 

[intothewoods]

i agree with this in regard to everyday people living their everyday lives, but viewed on a much larger scale (i.e. all of humanity), i find it disturbing. my problem with the feminism ideal of "choice" is that i do not believe that life should necessarily be about doing what makes one's happiest, or what one "chooses" that particular day. i also believe that societies in general function more productively when it is understood and expected that certain people fill certain roles. i believe that families function better when everyone has a clearly defined role and purpose, and that romantic relationships are healthier and more positive when each partner has a clearly defined role.

imo, the idea of there being no structure to anything, no order, and every individual living by a philosophy of "hey, whatever i want," is really really frightening. also, call me delusional (many have), but i sincerely believe that males and females are different for reasons beyond reproduction. i like to think that we were created for a purpose, that there is some rhyme, reason and logic to all this, and that it's not all just meaningless chance, individual choice and chaos. because well, that would be really really super depressing.

There are lots of interesting ideas there - do we really have choice or is choice an illusion? Do we really want choice? Does society function best with people acting in their own self-interest? I don't think any of that is solely about feminism though.

I personally crave structure, but not everyone thrives in that environment. Many people do like structure, order and defined roles. At least that's my take. On the other hand, an important part of growing up is learning to make good choices in the absence of an authority figure telling you what to do.

 

[Stella_Omega]

i agree with this in regard to everyday people living their everyday lives, but viewed on a much larger scale (i.e. all of humanity), i find it disturbing. my problem with the feminism ideal of "choice" is that i do not believe that life should necessarily be about doing what makes one's happiest, or what one "chooses" that particular day. i also believe that societies in general function more productively when it is understood and expected that certain people fill certain roles. i believe that families function better when everyone has a clearly defined role and purpose, and that romantic relationships are healthier and more positive when each partner has a clearly defined role.

imo, the idea of there being no structure to anything, no order, and every individual living by a philosophy of "hey, whatever i want," is really really frightening. also, call me delusional (many have), but i sincerely believe that males and females are different for reasons beyond reproduction. i like to think that we were created for a purpose, that there is some rhyme, reason and logic to all this, and that it's not all just meaningless chance, individual choice and chaos. because well, that would be really really super depressing.

The human race has a million fuzzy edges, sorry. I am genderqueer; a man born in a woman's body. There are thousands and thousands of men like me. And thousands and thousands of women born in male bodies, too. Do not assign me a based on my vagina, thank you.

And you misunderstand the term "choice," in the feminist language. It's about being able to choose your life path and being able to stick to it.

 

[Keroin]

There are lots of interesting ideas there - do we really have choice or is choice an illusion? Do we really want choice? Does society function best with people acting in their own self-interest? I don't think any of that is solely about feminism though.

I personally crave structure, but not everyone thrives in that environment. Many people do like structure, order and defined roles. At least that's my take. On the other hand, an important part of growing up is learning to make good choices in the absence of an authority figure telling you what to do.

I'm a non-structure person. Structure makes me feel trapped. I have rituals, things that keep me grounded as I "float about" but that's about it. The thought of a 9-5, M-F job makes my feet itch. That's me. I agree that most people like to have structure in their lives, at least from what I've witnessed.

Also, in regards to the OP, I also dislike rules and lists, as they pertain to what a person should or should not be or how they should or should not behave. Especially based on one's gender. Pfft.

 

[thesan]

subgirl by your definition, then black people would have remained slaves cause I mean it used to be understood and expected right? And back in the day all children belonged to husband as well as all the wealth and therefore even if the kids were being tortured or raped by dad, they stayed with him and not mom because that was understood and expected. I could go on and on about what was understood and expected but jaysus I can't believe I really have to.


And you have totally missed the point of choice as expressed by femininist idealogy. It is about being able to choose to be in a relationship in any capacity or not. Regardless of your "role" within that relationship.

And not to get you super depressed because Jaysus that would be the LAST thing I would want to do... your ideas about everyone's respective places within society for the greater good is about to make me fucking lose my mind.

Because by that same reasoning, I could choose your role to be a Dominant Super bitchy never have sex kick ass woman. Cause who gets to say what our roles are, either understood or expected. Which begs the question... who the fuck is defining what they expect of ME and who the fuck thinks that I should behave in a certain way and fulfill a certain role because it is something that THEY understood?

So you go ahead and fulfill your role in a way that you expect and understand. Cause really at the end of the day, it really should be about YOU and your SO and your kids and people's opinion that concern you.

And I will live my life according to what I and those persons that are important to me expect and understand.

And THAT is the crux of choice in the feminist sense. And I can say I have NEVER been so glad that some bitches burned their bras and allowed me to live my life as I understand it should be lived and I how I expect it should be lived.

 

[Netzach]

i agree with this in regard to everyday people living their everyday lives, but viewed on a much larger scale (i.e. all of humanity), i find it disturbing. my problem with the feminism ideal of "choice" is that i do not believe that life should necessarily be about doing what makes one's happiest, or what one "chooses" that particular day. i also believe that societies in general function more productively when it is understood and expected that certain people fill certain roles. i believe that families function better when everyone has a clearly defined role and purpose, and that romantic relationships are healthier and more positive when each partner has a clearly defined role.

imo, the idea of there being no structure to anything, no order, and every individual living by a philosophy of "hey, whatever i want," is really really frightening. also, call me delusional (many have), but i sincerely believe that males and females are different for reasons beyond reproduction. i like to think that we were created for a purpose, that there is some rhyme, reason and logic to all this, and that it's not all just meaningless chance, individual choice and chaos. because well, that would be really really super depressing.

Choices on this order aren't la la la today I'll do this. It's about having the right to make a commitment.

Like being able to serve a particular Master not the one your parents picked out for you and sold you to.

 

[YourCaptor]

You know with all fucked up shit that comes with this, it sure would make life soooooooo much simpler.

It'd be like, I want a wife, lets go shopping. But no, now adays every ones got her own thing going on complicating the fuck out of things. some of those women out their, they really, seriously make me think twice about whether women would contribute more if you just kept them in the kitchen.

But then a lot of guys are the same, they'd contribute more if they were dead.

I hate you human drama, why can't everyone just do what I wanna do.

 

[YourCaptor]

Choices on this order aren't la la la today I'll do this. It's about having the right to make a commitment.

Like being able to serve a particular Master not the one your parents picked out for you and sold you to.

Arranged marriages actually tend to be more satisfactory for those in them, when compared to marriages in the west.

Largely though, because those cultures also teach men their role, and women theirs, and then they already know each other when they get together. Resulting in a much smoother relationship learning curve. Everything is already set for smooth sailing.

Another thing, when set up in such a situation, humans generally do end up in love with their partner, it just takes a while, and results in a form of love much higher in commitment then the more infatuous type that we chose partners by in the west.

 

[Netzach]

Arranged marriages actually tend to be more satisfactory for those in them, when compared to marriages in the west.

Largely though, because those cultures also teach men their role, and women theirs, and then they already know each other when they get together. Resulting in a much smoother relationship learning curve. Everything is already set for smooth sailing.

Another thing, when set up in such a situation, humans generally do end up in love with their partner, it just takes a while, and results in a form of love much higher in commitment then the more infatuous type that we chose partners by in the west.

I got to grow up watching one in action.
No thanks.

 

[Soumis]

I like structure and order. There are three lists on my fridge right now. There's a lunch packed for work tomorrow. However, there are times when I need my routines and there are times when breaking routine feels liberating and exciting. Like unexpectedly getting off work early to find the afternoon in front of you. Or traveling someplace without a clue as to how you'll spend your time.

I find it really depressing to think that one shouldn't do as they choose with the end goal of happiness. To accept otherwise means that some people are meant to be unhappy and shouldn't strive for better and I cannot abide by that. I can't make some grand sweeping statement that one should always do whatever makes them happy, because obviously there are times when that's a bad idea, but I'd rather give everyone the freedom to choose than give no one the freedom to try for something better.

 

[Soumis]

Arranged marriages actually tend to be more satisfactory for those in them, when compared to marriages in the west.

Largely though, because those cultures also teach men their role, and women theirs, and then they already know each other when they get together. Resulting in a much smoother relationship learning curve. Everything is already set for smooth sailing.

Another thing, when set up in such a situation, humans generally do end up in love with their partner, it just takes a while, and results in a form of love much higher in commitment then the more infatuous type that we chose partners by in the west.

I'm a big believer that they are more satisfactory because the same culture that teaches them their roles teaches them specific expectations (met by the other's role). Not to mention most arranged marriage cultures frown upon showing dissent within a marriage and are often less equitable toward women.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Arranged marriages actually tend to be more satisfactory for those in them, when compared to marriages in the west.

Not always.

Largely though, because those cultures also teach men their role, and women theirs, and then they already know each other when they get together. Resulting in a much smoother relationship learning curve. Everything is already set for smooth sailing.

Not really. And especially not for the women. Can you imagine me in an arranged marriage? I would have been beaten to death within the first year. it would not matter what my culture taught me.

Another thing, when set up in such a situation, humans generally do end up in love with their partner, it just takes a while, and results in a form of love much higher in commitment then the more infatuous type that we chose partners by in the west.

My marriage has lasted 33 years, and still going strong.

My Hindu neighbor talked her husband into going home knowing he would not be able to get back into the country. She can't divorce him, but at least now she doesn't have to live with him.

Don't talk from ignorance.

 

[kittyn_]

My Hindu neighbor talked her husband into going home knowing he would not be able to get back into the country. She can't divorce him, but at least now she doesn't have to live with him.

I have to give your neighbor a round of applause, that's just beautiful, in a bitchy, shouldn't be needed, way.

 

[thesan]

Many cultures that still have arranged marriage don't allow divorce by the woman. And if you are citing some empirical study to base these assertions upon, I would like to know which publications. Cause I would bet dollars to donuts that the women, although this is just an assumption on my part, had a guest in the room with them as they gave their answers. Yup, either a mom-in-law, husband or someone else that could go back tell the hubbie or hubbies family what the women were reporting. And therefore I would have to question the veractiy of statements made in this manner. And are the questioners and questioned speaking the same language? Also a factor in veractiy. And what are the consequences of answer that the arranged marriage sucked lemons? Also a factor. And would you really admit that your life was hell just because some pollster asked when you could do NOTHING about your situation? Ummm, probably yes. And even if it did sucked lemons at what point in one's miserable existence would you tell yourself that you are happy and begin to believe it because to do otherwise would lead straight to homocide or suicide.

I guess what I am saying is that I need some more info in order to ascertain whether these statements about arranged marriages are true. lol

 

[JMohegan]

As a wider question, what does this say about female subs and the progress of feminism?

This isn't just about gender roles in personal relationships.

A society in which men are universally assumed to be more fit to rule the roost is a society with no Sally Ride, no Oprah, no Ruth Bader Ginsburg, no Meg Whitman. No female OBGYN's or mental health professionals or heads of schools.

In nearly every way, that society is more precarious, and fundamentally limiting, for females than it is for men.

This is why the concept of choice is so critically important, and not just because of the immediate impact on domestic life.

 

[BiBunny]

I'm a non-structure person. Structure makes me feel trapped. I have rituals, things that keep me grounded as I "float about" but that's about it. The thought of a 9-5, M-F job makes my feet itch. That's me. I agree that most people like to have structure in their lives, at least from what I've witnessed.

Also, in regards to the OP, I also dislike rules and lists, as they pertain to what a person should or should not be or how they should or should not behave. Especially based on one's gender. Pfft.

Same here. I'm not in my relationship for structure, though I can see why someone else might want that.

I saw a discussion on FetLife the other day about submission. The OP posted something likening submission to either being tethered to a stake or penned up inside a fence. The question was, the length of the tether and the radius of the circular fence are the same, so which do you prefer?

Everyone on the thread picked the stake. All I could think was that I'd chew my metaphorical leg off if I was limited in that way. I could deal much better with the fence, but apparently, that's unusual among subs.

They never explained what each one signified, and I never figured it out myself. But that's basically how my relationship is. "Here are your [fairly liberal] boundaries; do whatever you want within them." I need him to sort of point me in the right direction and get the hell out of my way, more or less. My soul would wither away in a micromanagement situation.

/hijack

 

[BLoved]

i like to think that we were created for a purpose, that there is some rhyme, reason and logic to all this, and that it's not all just meaningless chance, individual choice and chaos. because well, that would be really really super depressing.

I would like to know the "rhyme, reason and logic" behind the death of my father when I was ten.

I would like to know the "rhyme, reason and logic" behind the death of my grandfather, who lived with us, a month later.

I would like to know the "rhyme, reason and logic" that explains why my mother lost both of the men in her life and was left with two young sons to raise on her own.

I would like to know the "rhyme, reason and logic" behind the death of my wife.

I would like to know the "rhyme, reason and logic" behind the death of my young son almost a year later.

I look forward to some answers.

 

[Stella_Omega]

This isn't just about gender roles in personal relationships.

A society in which men are universally assumed to be more fit to rule the roost is a society with no Sally Ride, no Oprah, no Ruth Bader Ginsburg, no Meg Whitman. No female OBGYN's or mental health professionals or heads of schools.

In nearly every way, that society is more precarious, and fundamentally limiting, for females than it is for men.

This is why the concept of choice is so critically important, and not just because of the immediate impact on domestic life.

Yes, feminism is about shifting the whole society's parameters for choice.

 

[Homburg]

I'm a non-structure person. Structure makes me feel trapped. I have rituals, things that keep me grounded as I "float about" but that's about it. The thought of a 9-5, M-F job makes my feet itch. That's me. I agree that most people like to have structure in their lives, at least from what I've witnessed.

Also, in regards to the OP, I also dislike rules and lists, as they pertain to what a person should or should not be or how they should or should not behave. Especially based on one's gender. Pfft.

Same boat here. No thanks to the 9-5, and not interested in following, or imposing, vast numbers of rules. I feel hemmed in having to enforce rules.

If you make a rule, it is incumbent on you to both monitor for compliance, and correct when compliance does not happen. If you fail to do so, you might as well not have rules in the first place. So when you set a rule on others, you have set expectations on yourself. I'm not interested.

As a result, mine have two simple rules, and that's it. Yes, they are broad, and thus open to interpretation, but I am fine with that. Less for me to fuss with, and they are given the room to be themselves.

 

[YourCaptor]

Wow, the hostility here towards other cultures, and misunderstanding of those cultures is just ridiculous. Talk about ignorance

You all do realize that 50 years ago women had to be covered head to toe in christian churches. So that's what, your grandmas Never wondered about how the mom of Jesus is always dressed, and still is depicted. Or that it was jesuss dads full right to stone his cheating wife to death. Divorce, recent phenomenon, even the king of england had to jump through hopes to get his. What is marriage in the first place, method of controlling your lineage, and hence your woman, don't want someone elses kid getting your stuff. Yada yada yada, deaf ears right.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Wow, the hostility here towards other cultures, and misunderstanding of those cultures is just ridiculous. Talk about ignorance

Oh, we already were talking about ignorance.

You all do realize that 50 years ago women had to be ...

The argument from history? Been there, done that, used the t-shirt as a jizzrag already.

 

[YourCaptor]

And your argument was so fantastic

You have just totally discredited peer reviewed research with your 2, count them 2 personal observations. Golf clap

Not to mention that culture has some other influence on our behavior. Scary thought no? In a different culture, could it be you may have turned out just a little less ignorant.

Hey, and way to place getting beaten to death, sexism, and arrange marriages all in the same category, that’s totally not ignorant at all.

Get out of your backyard sometime, or your neighbors for that matter.