hope this doesnt end up to controvertial

[Closet Desire]

A complete sentence?

Of course. After wading through thousands and thousands of words I chose to sum it up with "twaddle". I chose twaddle because it was more polite than saying rubbish.

I apologised because I don't think I've ever been so harsh on what somebody had to say on lit.

 

[wildsweetone]

my thoughts

had society been a little more evolved in the world i grew up in, then i wouldn't have gone through all the experiences which i did.

had my parents not gone through their experiences and prejudged the ones i might go through, then maybe i wouldn't have gone through what i did.

i think it's not only to do with sex, age and maturity, it's the complete macrocosm that's at fault. trouble is, we can't fix it to any huge extent quickly enough to make a difference. we can only do our little bit within our own unit.

we each pass our knowledge on to our children, ie. what's right and what's wrong. we can really only guide them though. life experiences throw spanners in the works frequently. our kids need the skills to know how to deal with setbacks.

we can't always stop our children from doing the wrong thing, but we can guide them better and we can ensure we will still be around for them when they mess up, which they will because that's a natural part of growing.

stopping porn on the net isn't going to stop sexual activity from happening in young adults. but guiding our kids as to what they can see, will at least ensure they get a rounded education.

it's wrong for a male youth to be told he's not to touch his penis. it's wrong for him to believe that jacking-off is a bad sexual act. it's wrong to lay down the law and say "You will be a virgin when you marry" to either a female or male.

those three things are a natural part of personal growth. if Leslie is correct in believing that males are unable to 'think straight' until they've jacked off, then i say encourage masturbation 100%. make sure the young male knows at least one of their parents is aware they're doing it. make sure they're given their privacy. encourage them!

hell, maybe from a teaching point of view, males may well improve their listening skills and grades if they jacked off before class, instead of sitting staring at their classmates breasts etc.

the stigma attached to masturbation has got to be erased.

do we not find it pleasurable to pleasure ourselves? why shouldn't our youth learn the same self-pleasuring? why should they hide their sexuality, their preferences? why shouldn't they discover their own bodies thoroughly before they try to figure out how their partners works?

glad you opened the thread leslie, it's been interesting reading.

 

[Quint]

I don’t know how to quote multiple people, so I’ll just do it the old-fashioned way.

Leslie, you say that “Sex is just sex. Sperm meets girl and girl uses it to make baby. Thats it. There needs to be nothing more to it.” I found this incredibly untrue and very OOC for the person that I thought you were (my fault, not yours). To believe that sex is not dirty is definitely not the same as to believe that sex is meaningless action. Procreation is sperm-making-babies. Sex has the potential of being so very much more, and I’m quite amazed that you just ignored the emotional and mental side of it, especially since you believe people gain maturity by it. Physical activity alone gains no maturity, just experience. This also ties into your statement that you “do not support the ‘save it for someone special’ concept.” I didn’t save my virginity for my soulmate, but neither did I toss it aside the first time I felt horny. That demeans the ideal of sex, which I firmly believe in. Your desire for a sexual partner is directly tied to your life—I could not have sex with someone out of sheer lust, because sex would have less meaning when I found my true love. Gag, cliché and sentimental, but the principle of sex is the same as any other principle: if you give it to those who don’t deserve it, you cheapen it. It’s true of love, it’s true of respect, and it’s true of sex.

Goddamn I could go on forever, but I’m stopping now and moving on.

Jon.Hayworth said that “when they have run out of Child Porn to persecute they will move on and on until all sex not in the missionary position is unlawfull.” This is also untrue. Already BDSM communities are gaining more rights and respect from the law, as long as they fully observe the SSC rule (as they should!). You’re using a “slippery slope” argument, where you take one situation, predict another, and another, and before long it’s the end of the world. Don’t overreact, and pay attention to the facts. Besides, many states started off with laws that declare anything but missionary illegal. How often do you hear of those laws enforced?

Other than those two places I’m a pretty agreeable person.

 

[jon.hayworth]

Quint,

If I had the good fortune to live in a country that paid more than lip service to the concept of individual's freedom I might be as optomistic as you.

However here in the UK we still have state sponsored censorship of television and video's - we are not aloud to see erect penis's in the sex act.

As an individual cannot consent to be assaulted a group of gay sado masochists were succesfully prosecuted for inflicting Assaults causing Grevious Bodily Harm, and this conviction was upheld even by the European Court of Human Rights.

If I write a story in the celebs genre I could be sued for libel in a court in this country, because by sending it to Literotica from the UK I published it here (in the UK) - Even if the story was true the onus would be on me to prove that, the plaintiff would have to prove nothing beyond the fact I had published the story. Publish meaning to show it to one other person.

Last month a leading senior policeman, who was a liberal and a gay was harrassed out of his job because of views he had expressed as an individual.

I may be paranoid but I believe I have good grounds to be paranoid.

jon

 

[its Leslie]

Gawd I am glad I don't live in the UK (I dont mind the queen on my money, but thats the limit for me).

Just so I can keep everyone up to date, I tend to shun making something of nothing. Terms included.

Before I go to bed tonight I will have jacked off. I don't call it sex. It's just something that makes me feel better, and my cock insists rather loudly heheh ( I feel about the same after eating chocolate, or watching a good movie actually).

If tomorrow morning my wife is willing to spread her legs so I can relieve my morning load, that won't be sex as well. My wife knows I enjoy relieving myself with her that way, and she often allows me that treat even if she isn't needing any for herself.

When I was enaged in the deliberate attempt to get her pregnant all those years past that led to her bearing my son, that was also not sex. It was me pumping a reliable supply of sperm into her where nature requires it.

Semantics you might say.

"Sex" to me as a term is a word that denotes my gender. My sex is human male.

If my son walks in on his dad while dad is pumping his cock into mom, I plan on telling him dad is mating. Sounds better, makes more sense, easier on the ears as well.

Oh go mate yourself.

Easy as well to say son you need to be older to mate, you will have to wait a while. Or only mate with a special friend when that time arrives.

Sex as a word has long since been beaten to death.

It's the same reason telling me to "fuck off" isn't even remotely offensive to me.
First thing that enters my head when the illiterate masses use that on me is....pity he doesn't have more imagination.

Words are just words in most cases. But if used poorly they become dull and lose their edge. Not to mention people use them in situations that remain vague becomes they were used in a vague way.

And a great many of the world's people are letting their lives be ruled by laws based on a very few poorly written factually suspect books. Essentially interpreted to death, and taken as literal when not even read in the language of origin.

Personally I might be interested in reading the Bible in Hebrew if I could read Hebrew. But in english half of the bible is factually marrred.
Best example...there is no such commandment as "thou shalt not kill" (I got this from a jew with a BA in Theology by the way). The commandment is "thou shalt not murder"
In a court of law the distinction is the difference in the two words. Its illegal for me to kill you, but totally within the rights of the state to end the life of a convicted murderer. They would not be murdering me, simply killing me for my crime. Very important difference.

Please though, dont expect me to get to heavy in quoting the Bible. I am reasonably familiar with it (after having been exposed to it for 40 years).
But I am not even remotely fond of those people that like taking isolated phrases out of context (ya should have seen the male chauvanist questions I had to answer during my marriage instruction classes prior to getting married in a Pentecostal church....sure enjoyed refusing to give them the obvuious answers though....I mean sheeeesh I was expecting to marry the girl sitting next to me, not piss her off).

In summing up this particular post here though, no I am not making nothing of "sex", just refusing to make more of a specific word than is deserved.
I also refuse to be trapped in the "I Love You" game.
Today I told mary that I thought she was a perfect wife. Saying "I Love You" to me is as thrilling as getting a typed form letter.
I never compliment her the same way twice.

Mating with mary is rarely the thing stories are written of either I suppose. When I want to mate I usually just ask if she wants to play.
We end up sitting on the side of the bed fussing over each other for 15 minutes. Then there is the talking portion which is like 15 minutes. Then she plays with my cock for like 15 minutes. Then I usually insert my cock and use it the way it was designed to be used. I try to make her orgasm first. But being a high grade hubby that I am, I am not afrad to eat her out (she loves my tongue work), after I have unloaded my self in her (ladies telling me you like or don't mind the taste of sperm ain't washing with me, sperm tastes aweful, I know, I have tasted mine often enough).

That all likely doesn't qualify in most people's books as "romantic", thats why I call it mating. Mates mate. Dates romance. I still try to be romantic, but I long ago stopped trying to "win" her after I had "won".

 

[VeraGem]

I wanted to respond to this, but by the time I'd finished the first 4 posts I'd amassed 2 pages of notes - once I get them in order I may post them here or submit as an essay. In short - never mind, see you later...

 

[VeraGem]

Dirty Love and Clean Killing

Children are not universally mature enough emotionally (as opposed to sexually) to deal with an adult fucking them and then tossing them aside like a used toy. The same goes for children fucking children.

I don't think it's as simple as drawing a line in the sand; picking an arbitrary age that defines and separates black from white.

When my partner and I first consummated our love we were 15 and 16 years old. Children by most legal standards and, admittedly, by my own. Now that we are 37 and 38 years old we realize that what we did then would be considered by many to be a heinous act. These idiots have no business judging what they don't know. Which person in this case was the 'predator?' If the 15 year old was MY daughter, would I press criminal charges against the 16 year old boy and ruin his life? To what end? Because I 'know' what they're doing will lead to trouble? Setting ourselves up as moral overlords is a true act of arrogance that, at best, leads as easily to grief as happiness.

Am I advocating sex at such a young age? Certainly not - but it WILL happen, it has ALWAYS happened. We can't legislate it into oblivion. Rather, it is our responsibility as adults to deal with it on a case by case basis - because, as was pointed out earlier, the courts do not have the time to raise our children; nor is it their job to be parents even though some would make it so.

For me, any sort of sexual coercion is wrong. Not because I'm afraid of some invisible guy in the sky, not because it's illegal, simply because it's wrong, plane and simple. The problem starts when, by definition, sex under the age of 18 is labeled coercion no matter what the circumstances. It's a lazy way to look at a problem, a way to push aside decisions that take too much of our personal time.

But raising children requires a tremendous amount of thought, time and energy - and we're a bunch of lazy fuckers when it comes down to it; we all want a big invisible Daddy in the sky or an Old Guy behind a bench to tell us what to do - that way, if we cause more harm than good, it won't be our fault. It will be 'God's will' or 'The Court's Decision.'

"A license to fuck?" I hope you're joking, Karmadog. You must be. We already have Religion to deal out that kind of guilt and control anyway.

What about the absurd value we place on virginity? In many tribal societies still in existence today, virgins are thought of as useless: they don't contribute to the tribe. The whole 'Virgin In White' thing is simply a load of rubbish used to bury a man's insecurity - that shit only started when society switched from matriarchal to patriarchal lineage. I often wonder what idiot, or Pope or King, started that one. After all, there's never much question of who the mother is, is there?

So suddenly women are dirty; their bodies are dirty, sex is dirty, children are born dirty. Face it, it's all dirty in today's society - shut behind closed doors, barricaded behind a facade of religious terror and zeal. But killing is OK. Violence is fine. It's OK to show breasts - even a nipple here and there - but only if they're attached to a dead body, or one soon to be dead. It's repugnant and sickening; and all the while the 'Moral Right' screams about Pornography their children watch Jason butcher a young couple enmeshed in an act of love and pleasure.

We're all a bunch of fucked up sexually repressed power hungry selfish children, aren't we?

Think about it.

 

[its Leslie]

I still refuse to call anyone from 13- 17 by the term "children".

Regardless of the country or legal sysyem involved. I stand by my right, as a living breathing individual (which is all I require to obtain that right) to say the definition of "children" whether back up by religion or law, is of no value to me if it's extended past the age of 12.

That much said....Veragem your post seems to indicate your feet at least touch the ground. You made some good comments.
Think where your life would be if they had arrested your 16 year old mate and charged him with statuatory rape. Calling it a heinous act, is just a vestige of the guilt that society insists you bear.

The whole concept of sexual coercion, would fade out of existence, if we stopped intruding on the rights of our youths to grow up free of the biases of old people that should know better.

I might question the motives of a mature adult wanting a young teen though. Personally I will take a skilled adult woman over a scared (or even not scared) inexperienced teen every single time.

But to scare, intimidate and harrass two youths that are only learning what life truely is all about, that, my friends is heinous.

I am not saying forcefully encourage sex, but then I don't HAVE to encourage sex. Hands up all who are moronic enough to think teens won't have sex just cause we tell them they can't.

I am NOT sending my son into his teens years, uninformed and unprepared. If you don't want my son fucking your daughter, don't live near me. I won't be hindering him myself. If anything, I will be providing him with condums and sex manuals so he can at least fuck your daughter correctly (and without harming himself mentally emotionally or physically).

And emotional damage to me, is being told sex is wrong. Being told that virginity is special (it isnt). Being forced to do it in hiding as if its something to be ashamed of.
Mental damage is being given the wrong facts. Facts based off of complete bullshit out a religious text. And trust me I KNOW the bible is full of shit.
No I DO believe in god, just not the bullshit in any of the books.

If 100 people tell me the earth is flat and make it a law that denying it is illegal, the world remains round. I don't have time for obtuse irrational realities. I only have one son, and I refuse to fuck him up based on popular opinion.

Jon, you did a nice job illustrating how insane the law is anyway.
You made it quite clear how supporting a "position" based on "its the law" has little merit that's for sure. I hope that was your intention.

Uther denying my remarks validity based on your assumptions of my credentials or lack of disclosed credentials, with no counter arguments (beyond putting down mine) only wastes space here on the thread.

I chat with Wildsweetone occasionally so she already knows where I come from, and I appreciate her input.

Quint you sound like you are a romantic. Don't worry the world likes romantics too.

Closet Desire, your comments make me think you couldn't be old enough to actually be on this site. Please stick to just sticking your tongue out.

 

[Closet Desire]

What's z matter?

I''m older than you, raised more kids than you, married longer than you, and didn't get kicked out of the military.

Get a life.

 

[its Leslie]

Well to use Uther's thinking (but at least he said "something").

What proof do I have you are older, with more kids, and married longer...

and who said I was ever kicked out of the military?

Your petulance is all you offer.

And me doth think you protest to much.

You haven't given me any reason to think you are nothing more than a young, single, childless upstart that hasn't the skill to debate me.

Actually, why are you reading this thread anyway? You have yet to say anything useful for the others to read.

Or is "twaddle" the limit of your capacity.

 

[its Leslie]

Oh screw it.

I didn't start the thread to be nasty.

So I publicly apologise to everyone for breaking my own personal rule of not being anti social.

Including Closet Desire who didn't deserve my comments.

 

[Guest]

it's a good thing

to have started this thread.

if we can get over our own learned prejudices enough to be able to think with an open mind, then we've taken a step towards better educating our own offspring.

having worked with children in schools, i've had a few of my own strict upbringing rules knocked out of me. I don't know what it's like overseas, but here in NZ 12 year olds are arriving at school with hikies and explicit details of sexual encounters from the night before. don't get me wrong, not all 12yo are this advanced... but enough to make the rest listen with avid interest.

having said that, my son (12yo) is himself going through the stage of hiding the fact that he's interested in the female form. it is time for his father to step in and do the father/son talk. i want that discussion to include masturbation, how to do it properly, how to do it privately. i also want him to understand that it can be very pleasurable as well as useful.

i grew up not knowing about any of this stuff. it was well hidden from me in order to keep me a 'child' as long as was possible.

my husband is old school english (no offence meant to anyone there). he would far prefer to have nothing whatsoever to do with our childrens sexual awareness. already he has said no to our teenage daughter having sex until she's married.

i don't want this kind of attitude. i don't like it. it's unrealistic and completely useless to everyone.

i have spoken openly with our daughter on all matters of sex. how it's done, as well as how to keep herself safe and pregnant free until she knows the time is right for herself.

much as it feels like it will be difficult, i am now ready to discuss sex, masturbation, condoms, diseases and pregnancy with my son. i will not having him grow up in a world where sex is dirty or wrong, but i will have him aware of the consequences. his father has been warned that if he doesn't do his job then i wont hesitate to step in.

being a parent is so damn difficult at times, but being openminded and informed makes it much easier.

 

[Guest]

sorry, that last unregistered was me.
wildsweetone

 

[karmadog]

Good Luck WSO!

I think if my dad had given me the sex talk when I was twelve (or at any time), I would have died. Man, what a nightmare!

I learned about sex in the gutter like you're supposed to!

(Thank God I don't have any kids.)

 

[VeraGem]

Calling it a heinous act, is just a vestige of the guilt that society insists you bear.

Calling it a heinous act was just a sarcastic jab at those who seek to impose their subjective moral views on everyone. Guilt is a useless emotion.

I still refuse to call anyone from 13-17 by the term "children."

The older I get, the older others have to be before I stop thinking of them as children; it's a bias I'll freely admit. That doesn't mean I get to force my own life preferences on them - but if they ask...

Hands up all who are moronic enough to think teens won't have sex just cause we tell them they can't.

Tell them they can't? There are still those who believe we can keep them from finding out about it.

I don't have time for obtuse irrational realities.

Well said.

...denying my remarks validity based on your assumptions of my credentials or lack of disclosed credentials, with no counter arguments (beyond putting down mine) only wastes space here on the thread.

Further, Stephen Hawking once pointed out that his detractors often counter his arguments by slapping a label on him. The term he coined for such behavior was 'Refutation by Denigration.' That term goes a long way in describing most of the hysterical shouting that goes on every day. Credentials my ass. If someone makes an argument, refute it based on it's merits or lack thereof - don't simply sling mud at the speaker - or call them names...

 

[Closet Desire]

Debate?

I would like to point out that you offered us your "credentials" with no more proof than I provided. Yet somehow, mine are dismissed out of hand while yours remain legitimate. Curious and yet predictable. It's a pattern repeated on this thread and on your web site.

Yes, I may be one of the few who visited your web site before responding to your comments as "twaddle". The risk of being so loquacious, as you are, is to become transparent to others. If this thread was about building model tanks or playing war games then there might be something to debate, but there is nothing in your ramblings to suggest that the self-taught, high-school dropout intellect (your words--not mine) you profess yourself to be is actually prepared to debate with anyone.

Rather, you have created a system of mystical belief that disavows what most of us accept as reasonably true so that if someone attempts to disagree you can reject it with ethereal words. You attack those who have what you do not by saying it isn't important or that it is worthless. You know more than anybody with a paper diploma. You know better than your son's teachers in school. You know better than anybody and have listed them by profession on your site. What's the point of debating with you?

You offer as proof of the worthlessness of higher education two "friends" with degrees who work jobs apparently below their ability. Many people with diplomas work outside the fields of their discipline yet most will tell you that their educations helped enrich their lives by broadening their understanding of themselves and other people. Careers and education are not always so closely tied to one another.

Nevertheless you do tell the truth--your site is about you--all about you. Frankly I find your attitude toward your wife of 16 years appalling and demeaning. It makes me wonder about your attitude toward people who are not as close--or as tolerant--as your wife.

No, there are some times when debate isn't worth the effort. I don't debate the lives of dinosaurs with fundamentalist Christians and I don't see any substance to a debate with you.

Kind regards...

 

[Quint]

HA!

Excruciatingly well said, Closet Desire, and I think that "twaddle" was a very good summary (though one does expect summaries after the drawn-out response, rather than preceding it).

Leslie, I agreed with several of your points on forced laws against sexuality, but a good idea does not an intelligent man make. Way to reduce all our thoughts and posts to a sentence. That really spoke well of you. I am a romantic, as a matter of fact, but damned if there isn't a large amount of rational thought in my ideal world.

Your son will grow up less repressed sexually than most of us. This is a good thing. However, what sanctity will he put on his sexuality? Will he be shooting semen into his wife, since that's all you seem to think it is? I don't know a woman who would subject to such meaningless activity. It's dehumanizing. Your wife apparently takes it, and I shall say nothing of her. I can't imagine such a thing, myself. An act that has the potential to be so pleasurable and establish such a personal connection between two (and occasionally more) people should NOT be reduced to a chore. It's like scratching an itch, and it shouldn't be. You may raise your son thus, and I shall raise my daughter to value her body as a temple, and therefore all the products and actions of her body as holy. She will reject your son immediately, even if he comes prepared with sex manuals and a condom, because he'll just want to shoot some sperm into her. That's all sex is, isn't it?

Leslie, you sound like you're a fool. Don't worry, the world likes fools too.

 

[karmadog]

RE: twaddle

Personally, I like the word.

Now I'm just going to put on my twaddling clothes and twaddle of to my GF's house and twaddle her naughty bits.

 

[its Leslie]

Well it was an interesing thread I suppose.

I even attempted to stifle my own behaviour in favour of being civil.

But well, hmm, some of you don't WANT to be civil. Fine with me. I can always ignore the people that insist on being that way.

As I have already commented, reality is not based on popular opinion. If my comments don't interest you, why not make a leap of logic and just go away.
I am not always right, but I am equally not interested in worrying if you can tell when that is.

I will give Closet Desire credit for researching me. My web page IS all about me (is it so strange my web page would be about me). Saves me the tedium of repeating details endlessly.

I never dismissed your credentials, I was questioning your behaviour.

As for my wife, odds are she would say something entirely offensive to you. She is logical enough to know her husband doesn't think of her as a sex toy. She also knows I call a spade a spade. But a spade IS a spade.
It took me a long time to realise, and it was with some help from others comments, that my wife shows her love by being there for me. I live for the chances to pay her back. And occasionally she lets me.

Please keep any flaky people away from my son. I will thank you.
It's bad enough the education system is rife with factually erroneous text books. Yes factually erroneous. I know because I have books written by people of many sciences and may letters following their names that say so, its not always my opinion you are quoting.
I will enjoy not having to deal with having to protecting him from people that can see the forest for the trees.

I didn't not say I thought my friends higher education was worthless. No society has done that nicely for me. They enjoyed their education I am sure. I just didn't go massively in debt like they did for the cute wall hanging.

I don't mind playing the fool occasionally. it makes people around me more comfortable. That's for your benefit though not mine.

Now I can't speak for others that have posted here. But if those people that are obvious to any observer, would like to get back to discussing the subject, and abstain from pretending they will ever succeed in intimidating me.

I can handle my ideas being attacked. But personal attacks only inspire me to show you how little prepared you are to deal with it.

 

[VeraGem]

I've forgotten what the thread was all about - something to do with children?

 

[karmadog]

Les, I do this reluctantly. I suspect that I would like you if I ever met you. Dude, you have not given anything like a coherent argument. Truthfully, "twaddle" made as much sense as anything you have said. Not that I disagree with your point of view, but perhaps you could have defended it better.

On top of that, your web site is bereft of apostrophes. I do not mean to suggest that you are uneducated, but it makes you look stupid.

Les, you seem like a nice person, but you are attacking people on levels you have no right to based on what you show them.

Again, you seem like a nice guy to me. Please don't take this as an attack, because it's not.

 

[its Leslie]

Well Karmadog I thank you for your more respectable comments.

The apostrophe comment has me thinking though? Maybe it was a "made ya look" joke I missed. I DO have em, I sometimes miss them, but not always. I do tend to use long form instead of contractions a bit much. I occassionally will go through a document and purposely will place in contractions to make the sentences "sound" more commonplace.

As for defending a position. Hmmmm that also has me thinking (I actually like to be thinking as opposed to reacting though).

Assuming that, that is the goal then, I will attempt a specific defense, of a specific aspect, of my original comment (in the very first post).

"Legality"

So much of our culture is based on rule of law. Alas so much of it is based on rule of law , not rule of reason (or justice or neutrality).

I offer up this thought. If you go back far enough in time (according to what we are taught), Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are all based off of the same origins. If this isnt so, why did National Geographic waste a perfectly good issue saying so.
That much said, I can say that all three are fundementally the same (just unwilling to admit it much).

My point is this. A great swath of humanity, is basically subservient to the teachings based on a single God.

Further, it is not entirely important which book you are reading, as they all have the same boss in the end (although some would gladly call me heretic for lumping me in with "those people). Those people being the others that don't follow "their book".

I am saying all this, because our laws are written not to be arbitrarily neutral, or fair, they are written based on religious attitudes.

Why is it wrong to kill, to steal, to lie etc.

Is it because it's not "fair"? Is it because it's not practical?

No it's because it's written in a book that says we are not allowed to. And that book is not a book of laws written by the citizenry, it's a book that was written centuries ago.
Actually, most forget that the Bible for instance, is several books written that are a great many years apart in most cases, by a good many differing people of multiple languages.

But fear not. The Bible is "perfect" in every way. Not a single word or manner of grammar, can be questioned in any way. It can be taken as 100% perfect regardless of language. Every single word, every single piece of punctuation is flawless.

This is because the Bible is "divinely" inspired. Or that is what we are taught.

Thank goodness are laws have such a resoundingly firm basis. I wouldn't want my laws, my culture, my lifestyle, to be rooted in something vague or factually erroneous.

But wait..........

I want to make clear first and last (and disregard my web page it hasnt been updated in about a year and a half), I am a soundly religious person. I DO in fact believe in God.
But I stand here and now, as saying, and you can quote me, the Bible is a factually suspect, plageristic piece of editorially lacking, would-never-see-print if it was "just a book", piece of garbage (if taken literally).

I don't care one whit to base my life off of it (the Bible). I might as well base my life off of just about ANY book that has good ideas in it (and yes the Bible does have good ideas in it, that doesn't make it perfect though).

Now I am sure someone is looking for examples. Why is Leslie attacking the Bible? What makes him such a damn expert?

Actually a person doesn't need to be an expert in forestry to see the trees for the forest (or is it the forest for the trees?).
By the same token. A person doesn't need to sit in a seminary for several years to see something especially if its pointed out to them by someone that has (I do consult experts on most of what I speak of).

Case in point. The tale of Noah and the Flood (that's THE flood with a capital F). Any person with even a modest background in common reading will have heard how the Bible has stolen that story from the much earlier tale of Gilgamesh.

Plagerism, plain and simple.

In case you haven't noticed. Perfect is a word that in english at least, means factually pure. That is to say, 100%, no room for error, without error.

I have now proven the Bible is not perfect. It lied.

In a court of law. If you say you are telling the truth, and after 10, 100, 1000, 1 million even, questions you lie just once, your testimony can be seen as suspect. I put it to ya that the Bible's testimoney is suspect. I haven't the time to list all the other examples (it would bore you silly too).

I have proven my case. I have proven plausible deniability.

I have shown that society bases it's morals on a "perfect" book, that is not perfect at all.

In my defense of saying why a 13 year old menstruating girl should be allowed to have willing sex, with a sexually functional boy of 13. I offer, that laws based off of a society, that is mired in the questionable teachings of a factually impure book, is wrong.

I will grant you, that both persons are not mentally mature, nor emotionally mature (no one needs to beat that idea into my head I already believe it to be so).
I will agree that a full grown adult might not be the best route to showing either subject how to best enjoy the joys of their bodies new capacities.
Although a person with the benefit of hindsight, skill, and maturity might be better at it, it might be more fun to learn with a peer.
Our reluctance to allow young adults (and forget the "children" part, children are persons under 12), to engage in safe sex (and safe sex is not about condums all the time either), is damaging to them emotionally and mentally.
By teaching them the "joy" of virginity, we prolong the myth that virginity is actually "something". Virginity is nothing more than a vestige of our past biases, where it indicated we had bought the original sin story hook line and sinker.
By pretending they can ignore their bodies development till "later", we are only causing them stress, confusion, and unwanted incorrect programing (because they "won't" ignore their bodies).
If something is wrong today, it should be wrong tomorrow. You can't teach something magically becomes "right" based on an age.

An unskilled, inexperienced, young adult, is a blank slate. If we write garbage all over that slate, it's not surprising if they spend a lifetime trying to erase it later.
I am not saying I have all the answers. I have only just barely cleaned off my own damn slate as it goes.

I intend to see to it though, that my son does all his own writing on his own slate.
If he asks me for suggestions I will offer them. I will also point out each and every error in the world around him for his inspection. I will tell him that I am not always right. But I will point out that the people who say they are always right are full of it.

I won't hide from him what I consider to be natural. I will encourage him to enjoy the perfection of his own body mind and soul. If we are truely made in God's likeness, then to critique God's creation is incredible arrogance on our part.

I call sex, just sex for a reason. Sex IS just sex.
Just as my digestive system is a curious work of wonder (its amazing how powerful the acid in my stomache is, and yet is doesn't harm me).
We mystify sex and make it into all sorts of things that it isn't.

And for those that need to hear, while I call sex just sex, I can assure you, my wife is not demeaned by it. My wife is the center of my world. And it's not lessened in any way, if some days, I just want her to help me empty my balls.

Romance, yes I know romance.

How many of you women can ask your husband for a full, every nook and cranny, intimate oiled massage, ended with a tongue delivered orgasm. Followed by a previously prepared bubble bath. Where the object is to pamper her to my entire exclusion. By exclusion I mean I leave her to drift off to sleep, soft, warm, comfortable and unpestered by my own male needs.
Which means I find somewhere to jack off if I need to.

Mary knows she can end every single day in this manner. It's hers to ask for. She doesn't need to do a thing to gain it.

I will wager most of you can't even find a man at all that will offer that. If you can, hey great, glad to know Mary isn't the only one.